CX Goalkeeper with Annika Björck – S1E25 is about leadership and the source for change change

Episode Release on: 08. June 2021

CX Goalkeeper with Annika Björck – S1E25 is about leadership and the source for change change Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had a smart discussion with Annika Björck

My learnings:

Most transformation projects fail due to 2 main causes:

  • The initiative’s success cannot be proved, and little improvements are invisible
  • Too much focus on “doing” and not enough on change management

How to cope with these issues:

  • It is about balancing the skills of the team: adding to the UX skills, strategic skills to lead the transformation (e.g., communication, coaching, …)
  • Succeed together with top management: Prove the return on CX and pick some KPIs from the top management scorecards to help them achieving their goals.
  • The North star of a company is important: what is the vision for the customers? How should customers feel after the contact? This is the market differentiator! 80% has to do with the company (mindset, organization, …) and 20% with customers
  • Stop measuring everything. The 20% of the touchpoints which related to the Moment of Truths are the key differentiators and these should be measured properly
  • In the CX teams create a common understanding, manage the company expectations and the own team expectations.
  • CX teams need to be strategic and flexible. Leveraging change management to get people to move ahead and to reflect.
  • Don’t link CX to a person in a company.

Her book suggestion:

  • Reinventing organizations Frederic Laloux

Annika’s golden nugget:

A tool to put in place: adaptive processes. Going away from classical business process management (the old-fashioned step by step processes) to something supportive, intuitive, linked to customers behavior. It works with actions and rules instead of steps. It enables to create a customer journey and breaking it into its process within days.

a CX transformation is not a quick soup. There is no quick fix! @AnnikaBjoerck on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

Adaptive processes. Going away from classical BPM to something supportive, intuitive, linked to customers behaviour. It creates a customer journey and breaking it into its process within days. @AnnikaBjoerck on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

How to contact Annika:

Thank you, Annika!

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxheroes #cxtransformation #podcast


Annika Björck 0:03
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX Goalkeeper podcast today I will have a smart discussion together with Annika, Hi, Annika.

Hi, Greg, nice to see you.

Thank you very much on Annika for being here. It’s a great pleasure. We had several, let’s say private discussion. And now it’s really time to make this app and to have you on my show and to have a discussion about leadership. But before we start discussing and deep dive in this really interesting topic, could you please introduce yourself for the people that doesn’t know you?

Yeah, I’d love to. So my name is Annika Bjoerck. I’m a coach or mentor is like two or prefer to say, for CX professionals. I’m also a lecturer for customer experience management, to help companies and CX teams to drive their success within the companies to become more customer centric. I’ve been doing it and been in the role for almost 20 years myself and decided a few years ago to kind of change or switch sides and now to help people are CX professionals to raise their maturity and be successful in in Customer Experience Management.

Thank you, Annika, I’m not sure did you mentioned the name of your company.

My company is BJC or Bjoerck consulting. But I post on social media as CX hero, because I believe that all the CX professionals are out there, our CX heroes, they invest so much heart and time and thoughts in making their companies be more customer centric. So that’s why I focus on CX heroes.

Thank you very much Annika and as mentioned, I would like to start a discussion with to speak speaking about transformation in customer experience. And these projects, we have quite a lot of statistic numbers that are saying that not a lot of projects get successful or achieve the results they want to achieve. What’s your view on this point, and perhaps also, why these projects are not so successful?

Well, there is two main phases I observed that are a problem or where teams or CX professionals get stuck. One of them is when they kind of start off with customer experience management, and are not able to either prove the success or what they achieved with their project because they didn’t have proper business case setup and measurements. And what I call it, they fall into the trap of invisibility. So they keep on taking on some little projects trying to, you know, evangelize the entire company for the topic. And they’re just not able to unblock that visibility. So that’s one. The other one are the CX teams that already have a certain maturity. So they have their topics, they have the team, they might even have budget and investment from sea level, they have the attention for sea level, but they’re so focused in the doing and managing and trying to control all touch points and all the outcomes of those touch points because they feel responsible for it, that they drown in work in in this doing doing doing. And keep saying it’s like over managing and under leading, they need to switch into a change management or transformation of the company to be able to scale their effect, then they will never be able to control everything, they won’t be able to manage all the touch points. So they have to focus on those which are really meaningful, and at the same time transform and empower the entire organization to be customer centric, so to scale those gravitational force that they need to have. So these are the two phases, I see your problems I see. So that brings them two completely different things they need to do at those different points. It is a different maturity.

Clear. And and I think what you’re saying it’s really important, perhaps on one of the first topic that you mentioned, and this is about leadership, but also thinking about these CX teams, as you mentioned, and let’s make an example you have a company with 2000 employees and you have a C X team with three, four or five people. It’s not possible for them To start and continue the transformation and evangelize all the company about, about customer experience, and therefore, it’s important that they could be could start and will spread out is word of mouth about customer experience. Do you have some strategies out to tackle this this issue?

Well, it is actually one of the, I would say main questions I get confronted with, if I have CX professionals reaching out for help is like, either we don’t have enough resources, how do we get more resources or more budget? Or how do we get more visibility, and it’s like, we’re struggling, because we’re doing so much and we don’t have enough effect to show. So one main strategy, very often the skills of the team are not balanced. So what might happen is that you have UX professionals scaling up or becoming CX professionals, which is, you know, not working on the details of interfaces and stuff like that, but becoming more strategic CX has, you know, going for the customer journey, it goes up into strategy, you work on touch points, but UX is only pretty much going down into the details. So that has to be balanced, you can have people working in the details, and you need to have that and they need to push forward the important projects that prioritize projects where you know, you’re going to have the effect that you need to prove your work towards management and everybody else, so that people believe in customer experience management. But then on the other hand, you need people with the skills, being able to leading a transformation. So a lot more into training and setting up and tactics and these kinds of things. communication, communication is one of the most important pieces and coaching and mentoring sea level and communication that’s like a big part of my work is working with the CX team, but also working with C level management, so that they communicate the right things that the right moment because they can really work against you at that moment. And the same thing with work in marketing, because as long as you raise expectation, because your brand promises are so high, and you’re not able to deliver those experiences, your marketing budget is working against customer experience management. So those are things that need to be aligned at that point to be able to move on to the next maturity level. And that’s when we’re really talking about becoming customer centric. So it’s like, you know, you have the base camp, and now you want to go up to the peak of the Himalaya, so of the Everest. So you really need, there’s a few things that really need to align to be able to do that. And it’s not a single effort. It is a team effort of several key people that need to be on board.

I think this is a great introduction and a great discussion. Because exactly what you are saying it’s key, a team or six team can start with the storytelling with small success stories, showing, for example, example from the voice of the customer, also positive examples and so on, but at the end the unit or Northstar and define what you want to achieve. And you mentioned that this strategic level and having this strategic view, and therefore two questions come to my mind after after this, this discussion. The first one is how is it possible to get top management support? That’s the first one. And based on the fact that it’s in the same goes in the same direction? How can you define together with the sea levels, also this Northstar what we want to achieve.

I’m getting management attention and support for the topic. Candidate depends where you’re at in the maturity and then in that transformation journey. At the beginning, it’s a lot about taking one project proving the effects. And ideally, you know what the priorities are that sea level has, you know, their goals that they have in their scorecards, and then you pick a topic out of that scorecard. You want to be the one enabling them to achieve their goals. And if you are, you’re going to be an arranger automatically. And the important thing is, if you’re successful, you have to be able to prove your case. Because if you’re successful, you’re going to have 10 or 20, especially if in a large corporate with five 610 1000 employees. They’re going to be 10 Other projects claiming that it’s their success. So it has to be bullet proof that it’s your success, and you can prove it because if you can’t and you can make that case in 40 seconds towards management, they’re not going to believe it. So those are key moments. Um, my advice is always get away from evangelizing, trying to emulate less cause, see level you want succeed with it. The thing is really to prove and have your case. When it’s further wrong, there are some phases where they tend to question what you’re doing. And if you have enough effect. So if you have that standard procedure of every project you’re doing to have your case, and you add that up, you will not have that problem. It is only when you don’t have that when you don’t have your polymers to prove what you’re doing. And then you start getting question because then you’re a cost center in other profit center. And that’s when you start having your problems. And there is a few other things when CEO changes, stuff like that. And you can have either an advantage or a disadvantage. So the most important thing is really make your case and prove it bulletproof. And for the second question, forget it, say again,

no problem, it’s one side is to try to get the commitment from the sea levels. But also, what I’m seeing is quite a lot of companies are doing different initiatives quite split and spread out in the company. Without having a Northstar. I’m not speaking about the business strategy. But I’m really speaking about a customer experience strategy. And perhaps also for the audience, you can start expanding what the customer experience strategies. And now to get this note, North star that everybody tries to go in this direction.

Unknown Speaker 11:37
It can depends a little bit on the definition of North star? As I understand the Northstar is you need to have a vision of what the experience for the customer should be. And it’s not we’re doing customer experience. Well, you know, that’s not that’s a part of your business strategy. But it’s not your customer experience strategy. So you need to make a statement on Connect, the question is, how should your customer feel, or what should he say after contact with you as a company, because that’s where you differentiate. So it is very much linked to the brand. But it has to be something that gives orientation in your daily work in the way you behave. And that’s a hard one to do. Like, let’s say in Switzerland, a lot of companies as a brand value have Swiss, what what is Swiss? Is it something that gives orientation to your employees on what to do in their work? It doesn’t, because it could mean paint everything in red and white with a white cross, it could mean you have to be very punctual. Or it could mean that it has to be high quality. And if people do the three things, they think they do the right thing. But on the market, you’re not differentiated, you’re not one experience. And that’s what you need to get to. And the best way in my experience to develop this kind of Northstar is to do it in collaboration with all employees. That’s the most fun way of doing it. And the most impactful because you get to discuss it as an employee. And if you don’t, it’s your choice. But a lot of people rely to it on an emotional level. And they develop this intrinsic motivation of saying, Yeah, this is who we are, this is what we shave, this is what we want to be this is what we want our customers to say. And it’s not only about external customers, when you start working in change management, we are talking about the entire value chain. So ideally, you develop the company to where the employees in the company to think in dimension our internal customers. So every internal customer after a touch point, after an experience with an internal service provider should say, Oh, I felt you know, and then you have your vision, your customer experience vision. And only if it goes through the entire value chain, then you’re going to have the customer that really feels that more started that experience. Because what happens otherwise is that everybody expects the front to deliver that to the customer. But he’s not experiencing it in you know, in his context to the back. So he has to play a role. And then we’re not in that intrinsic place of saying this is who we are as a company I’m just being you know, a movie make or something to show the customer we are that but honestly behind the curtains we’re not and then it’s not authentic. So they you can see what they mentioned. At customer centric change takes on a keep saying customer centric change or customer centricity has like maybe 20% to do with your customer. 80% has to do with your company with your employees with the value chain with Whatever is happening in your company, and to change that takes a strategy. A lot of companies just let change happen. It’s not managed. And then they wonder where they are not achieving their goals. It’s like, you’re just walking to somewhere, but you don’t know where. And then we come back to your no store. Having that Northstar gives everyone a direction. And if you have the strategy, you know exactly what kind of path you’re thinking of taking to get to that, to the to that Northstar. So yeah, it’s absolutely central to have that. So

Annika Björck 15:42
I fully agree with you. And I think this is exactly the main point that you have a starting point, or you did already the first steps, then you know, where you want to go. And then you can also define the steps in order to achieve your target, measuring this, the progress, but also what you mentioned, it’s also the cultural aspect of the things involving employees feeling part of this transformation. And if you’re thinking about customer experience, it’s always about this customer centric transformation. And I know you are an external consultant, I am a former consultant. Therefore, I would like to start the discussion also. How would you create? Or how would you create a team, a group of people, in order to drive this this transformation with external people with internal people, it’s better omics, because what I’m also seeing is, as you mentioned, quite a lot of companies are focusing on the UX side of of the things focuses on the interface to the customer, that is really important. But if you want to transform something, you need to start from the core, and the core, it’s the art of the company, and therefore you need to do a bit more than only UX. What’s your view on that?

Um, well, it kind of depends a little bit on the maturity. But my experience in general, that’s one of the reasons why I set up my business, the way I do it is I stopped going in companies and leading that kind of program or change or project or whatever, because you get in you have this, it has a lot to do with the person leading, it has to do with someone being charismatic, it has to do about communication, you have a lot of, you know, attention on your person, and it kind of links the topic to the person. So the problem is, and, you know, I’ve been doing consulting in this kind of way for eight years, is that when you leave, it’s kind of like for all the employees, even if it’s a couple of 1000s, like, oh, the topic is done is finished, right? Because we’re done, the consultant is gone. So you know, keep on going with the normal normal work kind of maybe maybe making a bit too extreme, but teams are able to pick it up. But you can see in the performance also in the NPS, its efficacy that you’re going to have a dip, very likely after, after the consultants leaving. So what I do now, and I really firmly believe it’s the only way to have a sustainable transformation, is to support the internal people to do it. Of course, they won’t have the same experience and knowledge, but they don’t need it, they only need a certain knowledge advantage compared to the rest of the company. And to have someone that has their back when they have questions and whatever. And someone that helps them in keeping management in check. So that they stay, you know, all sea level have their own way of managing a little bit. Some are very, very smart, very, very fast. So they communicate and they’re like, Okay, I communicated it now. It’s done. Now it’s implemented. And no, that’s not the way it works in customer experience, and definitely not in change management, or in transformation. So very often people don’t have that much experience when it comes to dealing with management, then sometimes it’s easy to have someone from the outside to say, Hey, Mr. or Mrs. So is this and that, you know, just stop and let people take in what we communicated. It’s a different thing when you’re, you know, it’s your Boss, Boss Boss, or something like that to say, hey, stop, this is the wrong way. So my belief is really to, you know, support these teams. And one of the first things that needs to be done is to really see the skills and capabilities of that team, the knowledge and the skills. Usually there’s a mix that you know, someone has a lot of experience in project management so you can hook them on this, you know, touch point, man instrument and get things done in projects and stuff like that. So sometimes you just need to redefine the roles a little bit so that you’re able to scale them to enrich their job, and maybe also develop them to the next level, very often UX consultants, smart ones, are very open to go into see acts go away from the only digital into all other kinds of touch points that you might have, and find it very interesting. And that’s getting to becoming more strategic. Very often, they’re very junior, and, you know, it’s a good career paths to go into. We’re talking business development, right? So it’s an interesting field. So it kind of has to be very individual, there’s a few things out of experience that I see, you need to have in a team, depending on maturity. And then you just assess where the team is at and then decide, okay, what are the skills and capabilities that we need to develop? What is there and how can we work with what is there. And usually, usually, there’s always a good starting position, there’s always something you can do with what is there, and with topics that are there or budgets that are there or not there. It’s just a way of thinking in can do, you can always do something, I mean, I started my project with six projects with zero budget. And then I made my first case, and I told my boss, well,

if I have, if I make so much money out of this case, I want 10% to fund my next project to fund my research. And if you do that beforehand, they’re gonna say yes, because they see the potential money. And if you drag them in, then you know you have your budget, if you do it at the end, they’re not going to say yes, because they’re, they just want to take in the money and put that on their sheet. So it’s little bits and pieces that you can do that you can always do to to move forward with customer centricity.

I think what you’re saying it’s really important is being strategic, but also being smart. In order to progress with this customer centric transformation. Not all the companies are already where they should be, or they should know how important is customer centricity. And therefore you need to play the game very, very smart in order to achieve your targets and what you mentioned. And I think it’s really important. And it’s, I think it’s not relevant if it’s an internal person, leader, Head of Customer experience, or an external consultant, but the most important is the customer experience team. And as you said, everything this team to grow at the end, if it’s the external consultant going away, or the first one that gets fired is the end of customer experience, because we don’t need that we need to save money. And then you need to enable and to empower the people that are still working in the company with this customer experience mindset. And their Do you have some hints out to support these people and really, let’s say to lead this, this see steam, instead only to manage them, like project manager.

Um, it kind of depends on the setting, which is there and the maturity. What I see what usually is lacking is really people that are able to do training in a captivating way to, you know, teach them detectives and even managing some or managing yourself as a team in a proper way. I see so many teams, everyone, every person is in a in a project or in two projects or in five projects, and they don’t even barely see each other because everybody’s running around in the company and they have their if I take an insurance one is for for life insurance, the other for liabilities and whatever. And they almost don’t get together at all. So what you need to do is to have a clear setting of what are your methodologies, your framework? What are the main experiences that you need to manage, like there’s 20 to 30% moments of truth. Usually in a company, those are the ones that you want to manage, you have to know them. This is basic research that you need to do and as as far as I love data and to crunch data, the tendency I see now about measuring every touchpoint that’s sorry, Bs it’s just overdoing over managing something which in my opinion, doesn’t make sense that way and it’s so expensive to do that for or what are you doing with it? Okay, maybe a close the feedback and then you get gained in your score. So there are a few things setups that need to be in place to be able to scale as a team. And to be able to say, also from the visibility that people feel that you are a unity, you have a certain set of frameworks, this is the way we work and not Oh, one time we do it this way. And this way, and the other way around. And people are like, Hey, what is happening here, and, you know, don’t get the concept and how to work and then you train them on something, and then the team works differently. And these are all the things, these are the things that you need to lead a CX team, these are the things that you need to decide on, and not try to control those 80% of touch points, which you can leave to the teams, they’re going to be fine, it’s not going to be perfect, but it doesn’t have to be perfect, customers will be very set off, if all touch points will be perfect. Just trust the teams to be able to do it, just leave them with it and show them how to do it and let them try it out. And come away. In German, we say glucagon is like, being the hands on the eggs and trying to control everything. This is one of the main weaknesses I see. And CX teams are main block, I see that they need to unblock, to get to the next maturity level, and manage themselves in their expectation. Because the problem I also see with that is you put the pressure on yourself that you have to deliver those experiences. It’s like you have the responsibility for the customer experience. You don’t it’s a company, everyone has it, you just enable. And you can take on the responsibility for 20 30% of the moments of truth and have a certain part of it in it. But the doing is in another place. And if you put yourself in that we’re managing everything. That’s how management is going to look at you sea level, and they’re going to take you into accountability for that. And if the experience is not good, if the NPS is going down, it’s your fault. And it’s not, you can enable but you cannot take on the entire responsibility, you’re gonna break under the pressure. So but it’s something the CX team puts itself into, it’s no one else, it’s your own responsibility as a CX team to manage that. And it’s Yeah, expectation management as you do it in many other fields. But this is a huge expectation. And it’s at the beginning, it might be sexy, to be the one responsible for the tie experience. But if you get into the doing, it’s not that sexy anymore, because you will always lose. If you’re responsible or held responsible for that.

I think this is the key. And this is what something that it’s extremely important to share to understand. It’s icy companies measuring satisfaction. After each step that you perform. For example, I had an insurance case. And after that I sent to the insurance company, my my request to solve my issues, I already get satisfaction surveys at sorry, first of all solve my issue. And then I will tell you if I’m happy or not. And and what you’re saying and what you’re explaining, explaining is 30 things strategically. And I think we see that you are always putting the strategy, let’s say first because then you can plan very well the next steps and the doing, how is this possible to enable to empower these these 3x teams to balance a bit more the doing with the strategic thinking?

I’m kinda depends a little bit, especially on the on the customer experience officer or the team leader really is a key person when it comes to that. And, of course, if you have a team of UX designer, you have another starting position and you know, a lot of work and development to do to be able to kind of scale to the next level. Not all CXOs are strategic, but from what I see a lot are, but they don’t have kind of the framework. They didn’t know how to approach the CX strategy, because there’s not a real template out there. I started working on that last fall and developing something because it was kind of missing and it’s really the first as you say the first approach I do is really developing kind of strategy See, assessing where they’re at when the skills and capabilities the knowledge, what is missing, assess where they’re at, at in the maturity As a company, how does it feel? And then what is the company’s strategy? What are the main projects? Because the the strategy could be one, but the projects that companies doing could be different topics. So that’s something you want to look at. And then from there, there’s like, in my opinion, in my experience, there’s four main pillars to go into. And then see, okay, where are you at? How mature are there? In the measurements? What are you doing? Are you overdoing or under doing typically overdoing? touchpoint redesign very often overdoing? The question is, is it at the right place? How much? Do you know do you have about basic research? Do you know the basic of CX that you need to know? And that’s usually qualitative research, have your main customer journeys, have your moments of truth of your personas? Do you know your two three personas that you have in your company? Because that gives so much orientation for employees to deliver the right experience? Do you have that more starter? So you know, few questions that you can that you can ask that you need for a solid strategy strategy. And when you have that, it’s actually, you know, a question of following that strategy, following your plan, developing the plan, but then, as you say, being strategic, but flexible at the same time, because if you go into change management, you can try something you can put in place a measure, and then people react to it. And you cannot predict the way they react, like I work with two insurance companies in the same market, same size, even the same brand color, you would think that people would react the same way they don’t, the culture is different, the starting position, if there is different, so you can try something and change management is not about being successful all the time. It’s about getting people to move to think to reflect to sometimes also being a bit edgy, is something that can help. It’s not about everybody being happy all the time. That’s a big expectation I’m confronted with, from sea level, it’s like, I don’t want to be the bad guy. Well, if you do change management, sometimes you are, you know, it’s part of the deal. You do things that people that are uncomfortable, but that’s the only way, not the only one, but one of the ways to move forward. So, yeah. I think if you if you plan your strategy, if you have a strategy on four or five main pillars, then you have a good starting position to really scale to the next level. And then you see where you’re at, at the end of the year, how do people react, especially in transformation, and then keep on going on the next level. So like, teams, i i, cultural mentor, usually it’s very intense in the first 12 months, and then they kind of see the system, they get it. And then the next 12 months, already a lot less. It’s more calls about oh, what do I do now? You know, kind of spontaneous. And then the third year, it’s almost nothing because they get it, you know, they mature, and they’re able to, to, you know, keep on going with that pace and taking the company to the next level.

And I think this is important, and it’s what you are mentioning, customer experience. Transformation doesn’t happen overnight. But it takes time. And it needs also experts like you to support and to enable organization and then the organization needs to start

Unknown Speaker 33:55
It’s not quick soup. I would say it’s not a quick soap, and there’s no quick fix.

Annika Björck 34:00
That’s nice. I think that this was really a great discussion. But now it’s time to learn a bit more about about you, Annika. We know that your life is split between Cyprus and Switzerland. How can you ensure to have a proper work life balance by doing all the stuff that you were doing?

Um, well. I have my fixed days where I work and the fixed days, I have a four year old daughter. And it’s one of the reasons for one of the many reasons for me to move to Cyprus. Except for of course, weather and everything. You know how it is in the Swiss German part. The weather is not so nice. So yeah, we grew up differently. So that’s something I was seeking. And so I want to enjoy my time with my my daughter. So it’s very important for me, I have my fixed days where we’re at work and my fixed days where I will her, and we enjoy our time, our spare time and discover the island, which is amazing. And yeah, before Corona, I used to fly back and forth on a regular basis. And now it’s a bit more difficult means that when we have locked down or whatever, mainly here in Cyprus, and when it opens up, I’m a lot more in Switzerland. And I fly back and forth a lot more. But the development is just interesting to see. I mean, I, I went into the digital life, two and a half years ago. So then people still wanted to, you know, meet in person, all this digital stuff was not so normal and standard, especially when it comes to management, mentoring, consulting, this kind of thing. It’s like, oh, we need to meet in person. And this changed a lot. So to observe this, and having done the move before. This development has been a very interesting journey, a very, very interesting journey, also a lecturer at five universities, the transition from last year in April from in Persona, lecturing. In one week, the change into digital has been, you know, like this, it’s been, it has been an amazing journey. And then now I have the back and forth between, oh, we can do it in person. Oh, no. Back to not so and hybrid and this and that. So yeah, it’s been a lot of adapting. But it’s fun. It’s interesting.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:40
I think we are living really in a very nice time with this transformation to to more digital and hybrid. And I think this is this is it will change how we will interconnect with people, perhaps is there still a book digital or not digital, that you say I would recommend to the to the audience or allowed me to grow?

Annika Björck 37:03
Yes, there is. Ah, sorry, I am back. This is one of my favorites.

Reinventing organization.

Yeah, I have those proper book, the big one. And a friend of mine gave me this one in fall. And it’s the visualized version of it. And there’s just the essence of it inside. And it’s very interesting. It talks about the different stages, evolutionary stages of organizations, and groups. And the last stage, the to stage. This is one of the reasons why my brand is on to is the evolutionary organization. So it’s more about how do you manage organizations to work together as teams or as organic teams, and get away from the power hierarchy that is still coming in, in our businesses? And especially if I think of dimensions like value chain, and how do all this work together, and this is something I analyze a lot with the companies that work with. That’s the direction I have a very interesting client in at the moment that is a global association. And that’s actually a natural way for them of working because it’s over almost 30 companies in 30 countries. And it’s not a power over its, you know, every company is an own organization. So it’s another way of co working. So it’s kind of like the place evolutionary place to go to as a company and support companies to go there through customer centricity is. Yeah, it’s super interesting. It’s a combined, I mean, it just come together. The two topics are so interlinked, and yeah, so I can recommend that. It’s by Frederic Laloux, reinventing organization, the visual, the visual version is a really nice to read.

Thank you very much Annika. The second last question is, if people wants to contact you, what’s the best way?

Um, a good way is LinkedIn. Annika Björck at CX Heroes is the other one or over my homepage, www dot b j o e r c k dot ch. So my last name, yeah, or Instagram at CX heroes. I post there too, but my main focus is, is on LinkedIn.

Thank you Annika. And now we come to the last question. It’s Annika golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed on something that A new that you would like to leave to the audience?

Ah, a gold nugget. professionally? Yes. Hmm, a gold nugget. Ah well, I think one of the gold nuggets for me for the last that I encountered in the last two years is a tool to put in place adaptive processes to go away. It’s something I’ve been working on for quite a while. And I’ve done a certification Now go away from the business, classical business process management, which means step by step processes, but something supporting intuitive behavior of customers. And that works with actions and rules instead of steps. And that is one of the golden nuggets I’m working a lot with now at the moment because it enables you to take a customer journey and break it down to process level and implement it within days. Instead of going into you know how it is you are in corporate to go into process modeling. That is my golden nugget at the moment and it’s so much fun. It is going back into the details but it’s one of the weaknesses in cx to not only get a redesign customer journey or touch point but break it down into doing into work into automating automatisation. Digitalization. People being able to get the information they need, whatever. So yeah, that’s my golden nugget at the moment, adaptive processes.

Thank you very much Annika, it was really a great pleasure to have you for this smart discussion. And also to the audience. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. And I need to say that it was an extremely difficult discussion not because of Annika but because normally we speak Italian and now we spoke English. However, I hope that you enjoyed this discussion and I had a lot of fun. Thank you very much. Grazie mille, arrivederci.

Grazie, Ciao a tutti

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