CX Goalkeeper with Gustavo Imhof – S1E29 is about memories in Customer Experience – Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper
The CX Goalkeeper had a smart discussion with Gustavo Imhof
LinkedIn Headline: I make sure your audience remembers you! | Customer Experience (CX) | #1 Best-Selling Author | Voice of Customer | Customer Insights | CX 30 Under 30 | Customer Experience Leader | Storytelling | Content and Copywriting
We discussed his chapter of the book Customer Experience 3: Experiences don’t matter, memories do.
– There is a disconnect between what happens during an experience and what customers remember, therefore memories matter!
– Every human being remembers and elaborates experiences in a different way
– By understanding how memories work, you can design the
experiences accordingly and making moments memorable (however, you need to be smart at it)
– Some moments can completely change the evaluation of an experience (good and bad)
Gustavo’s contact details:
His book suggestion:
– Atomic habits, James Clear
– Impossible to ignore, Carmen Simon
Gustavo’s golden nugget:
Utilities are completely from external interferences thus they are completely free in designing experiences. These are not the most exciting industries.
Thank you, Gustavo!
#customerexperience #CXAhead #cxgoalkeeper
Experiences don’t matter, memories do. @GustavoImhof on the CX Goalkeeper PodcastTweet
Gregorio Uglioni 0:03
Ladies and gentlemen, I am really excited to have Gustavo Imhof with me. Hi, Gustavo.
Gustavo Imhof 0:09
Hey, Gregorio, how you doing?
Gregorio Uglioni 0:12
very well, thank you very much, Gustavo, for for being in. It’s really a big pleasure to have you on my podcast, you are one of the co-author of customer experience 3, the book that we wrote together, and you helped me also during the journey of creating my chapter, you provide really great feedback on my chapter. And also in this case, and publicly: Thank you very much for your for your support. But now, I’m not speaking about myself anymore. Could you please introduce yourself with a short introduction, Gustavo?
Gustavo Imhof 0:43
Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Gregorio. So I’m Gustavo Imhof. I’ve been in customer experience for essentially my entire career. And I like to joke to say I’m one of that new breed of customer experience professional. I started it. I started in CX, when he was already, as we understand it today, and you know, running with the customer program, driving transformation across the organization. And my bread and butter, my background was voc so I used to run agency side, inside programs for large organizations across the UK and across Europe as well. And then I moved in, in terms of leadership roles in client sides. And I’ve been stuck in ever since enjoying helping businesses from the inside, on how to transform themselves. And as you said, had the crazy idea of joining that customer experience three book projects, and been enjoying the ride ever since.
Gregorio Uglioni 1:40
Thank you very much, Gustavo, and perhaps you forgot to mention or you didn’t mention that you are a rising star in customer experience, you are extremely young and already one star in customer experience. And you’re extremely active on LinkedIn, we are following you. And you’re really providing to peers really great nuggets on on on customer experience. And thank you, thank you for that. And what I would like also to mention is we have 2 Swiss citizens on this on this call, I would say “Hello – Gruezi, Gustavo,” but we will continue in English for sure, no problem at all.
Gustavo Imhof 2:21
As I told you earlier, my “Scheizerdeutsch” very rusty. So that’s how it is in Switzerland, right? If you have the Swiss romande the French speaking, and the Swiss german together, we just default to English. So let’s do that.
Gregorio Uglioni 2:36
Now. That’s, that’s clear. And I think it’s a language that everybody can understand. And I think I would really like to deep dive in your chapter of customer experience 3, you are on the strategic side of the discussion. And I really, really enjoyed trying to understand and going through your description, it’s really very well written chapter, then that helps really people to understand and to think about customer experience, perhaps from an other point of view with another flavor with another flavor. And therefore, to kick off the discussion. I’m trying also to follow up with the structure in, in your chapter. Normally, we say you interact with the company, and then based on the interaction that you have with the company, you can predict if they are coming back and buy again, what’s your view on that? Or how are you seeing this this topic?
Gustavo Imhof 3:30
That’s the thing, right is the title of the of the chapter is experiences don’t matter? Memories do. And that’s, that’s a small but important distinction that that I make. Because all people that focus on analytics and predicting on the back on the back of interactions. They’re making the assumption that the experience that we have the actual interaction drives future behavior, and making the assumption that we have that connection, when actually it’s not true. Right is what drives how we act, how we behave, is what we remember of the interactions. If what we remember, and what happened are exactly the same thing. That’s fine. Let’s use all those fancy analytics and will have a pretty robust model. Problem is they’re not there’s a disconnect in between what happens and what will remember of them. And that’s why I’ve always kind of say, look, what matters is how customers feel, what they perceive and what they remember, of the experience, because that’s what drives their future behavior. And if you think about customer experience as a as a discipline, as as a field, our goal is to improve business performance. How do we improve business performance by impacting customer behavior in the future? And that’s why I made a distinction less focused on what they remember more than what happens.
Gregorio Uglioni 4:53
And perhaps Gustavo, What do you remember about your journey? Because I think it’s a really a journey, what you’re describing also in the chapter about your experience with with with the restaurant.
Gustavo Imhof 5:08
Well, there’s a thing, right, I use that example of going to a cabaret restaurant in London to illustrate that. And what I say is, it was a really, really surprising experience very immersive. So if you think a job and experiential, the experience economy very much following the steps of Joe Pyne, and building a very exuberant experience, but the fact is, I was talking to my fiance the other day about this experience, and she’s probably sick of hearing about this story, because I talked so much about it. And I realized that although we both went to the same place, at the same time, sat at the same table, we remembered the experience in different ways. There were some details that are remembered that you remember something completely differently. And that’s what’s really interesting and kind of sparked the idea for this topic and got me researching. Because if we both went through the same experience, how would we have different recollection? Why would we remember different facts? And that’s why that’s how I landed on that thing. Actually, what we’ll remember is what matters the most.
Gregorio Uglioni 6:16
And perhaps, to to understand, or to deep dive a bit. From your point of view, why do you remember something different from from your wife? And be sorry, from your fiance? Sorry, it’s a bit too early to discuss about, I won’t ask any questions. Don’t worry, no pressure at all. Why are you remembering in a different way is based on your past experiences, perhaps also thinking about Qualtrics, there are specific human experience lifecycle that are faring and it’s really linked to what you are explaining?
Gustavo Imhof 6:53
Exactly. So it’s, that’s the thing is, every perception, every memory is unique. And what we remember or not for something is going to depend on our own backgrounds, or likes, dislikes, what we’ve done in the past, what hasn’t. So for example, one thing that drives a lot of a lot of experience, a lot of impact is familiarity. Right? It’s something that feels familiar, we’re going to resonate. So if I think back on this experience, we walked into a traditional Italian restaurant on the surface, like traditional family owned Italian restaurants. Now, growing up in Geneva, there were a lot of those being of Italian origin, I always had that resonance, right. That’s something that always mattered to me, because it’s part of who I am. So that’s something that resonated with me. She is British, for British and her family has been in the region for 400 plus years. So she doesn’t have that connection, that emotional connection to that aspect of the family owned Italian restaurants. So that’s something that resonated with me, and made the experience more special to me than it did to her. So he’s really, each one of us has a predisposition, I’d say to remember something in a way or another. But businesses can still, if they understand how the brain works, how memories work, they can still try to design to make it more likely to be remembered. But there is no one size fits all, like many, many things about customer experience. That’s just not how it works.
Gregorio Uglioni 8:25
Now, I fully agree with you. And as we are discussing about customer experience, that one fits all is not working, you cannot offer one, let’s say customer journey, or one customer experience that will fit to everybody. Because as you’re saying we had, we have different memories, we have different perceptions, we have different behaviors, and therefore we understand those also experiences differently. Perhaps also to try to really understand a bit what you were saying, how do you define memories? Because you mentioned already several times that the topic memories?
Gustavo Imhof 9:00
you know, I never expected anyone to ask me, How are defined memories? Because it’s a concept that is so intuitive for most of us, right? I think is I’d say, if you think back about anything that has already happened, what what comes to mind is your memory, right? That’s essentially what it is, is how do you recall how do you remember how do you think of things that happened in the past? And what comes to mind? That’s probably how I define memories, I think,
Gregorio Uglioni 9:34
I am I am asking these questions. And these are not pre aligned. But I would like really to understand and and also perhaps to challenge you, but to make that that understandable to others. And I said as I said I really love your chapter. And basically what you’re saying it’s exactly what we remember. And my my next questions is, do you think or from a psychological point of view It’s easier Remember, good experiences, bad experiences? Why? Why am this guy why I’m asking these questions, because there are quite a lot of statistics saying that people are sharing through social media have bad experiences, and and not really the good one. I am doing so a bit of research. And if I directly ask to somebody, could you share with me please a good experience that you that you had? It’s most of the time, it’s a positive experience.
Gustavo Imhof 10:31
Yeah, I think that’s interesting, isn’t it? Because you’re right. People tend to go out of their own way to share the negative experiences, but not the positives. And why is that the positive experience more often than not, unless it’s a wow, elements like, like the story I shared on the from the cabaret, a good experience is simply things went according to plan. Right? I wanted something happened, happy days. However, a bad experience, you have that disconfirmation, right, you had an expectation. And that expectation has been disconfirm has been broken, because things went wrong. So by its very nature, a bad experience is going to stand out. Because the reality is the majority of the experiences you have or from average to good enough to excellent. But the thing is contrast, right, the bad experience is going to stand out, because you have the contrast. And because us human beings, we hate loss, but we have a loss aversion that is much, much higher than our appetites to gain. So if you combine the fact that it’s going to stand out in terms of contrasts, but also it’s going to be more painful, that’s why you have the thing is something that’s negative and negative experience is going to be a much more salient and much more memorable than a positive one. However, as you mentioned, if you ask someone about an experience, or recent experience, they’re more likely to bring the positive one. Why? Because they’re going to relate the positive one, but also because there are a lot more positive experiences available in the memory for them to rely upon.
Gregorio Uglioni 12:14
And following what what you’re saying, and we are even if not pre discussed, we are agreeing on all what we are discussing it. I think that the biggest topic, the biggest point here, it’s people remember bad experiences, and good experiencing experiences, nothing in between, and therefore average experiences are not so funny, not so interesting. And therefore something can go well or can go wrong. And as you are mentioning that and coming back to what you mentioned, you mentioned the experience economy of Pine and Gilmore. And and I think this is the key in the case that you shared with us with with the restaurants and it was like theater scene. They prepared everything. And these have to create memories. What’s your view on that? It’s always important to create this scene around or what what’s your view on it?
Gustavo Imhof 13:11
I think it’s it’s one of those things, right is way to remember that businesses are in it to make money. But we need to be a bit cynical. And businesses exist first and foremost, to make money. And they do that by serving customers well. So I would never advocate anyone to try to make every single experience memorable. Because from a financial perspective, is that just not going to be profitable, right. But that’s what I like the concept of signature experience or branded experience. Now businesses that really tried to design specific journeys, experiences that really stand out, and they are the epitome of the brand. And I think that that’s where it really, really stands out. I think that companies need to prioritize like everything, right? They need to prioritize the experiences and what experiences they should make memorable. Because for example, if I think of when I booked to go to into that restaurant, I don’t remember if I booked by phone or by by email or websites, I don’t even remember how I paint. Why because those are purely transactional. They’re not the most important part of the experience. So it’s really important for businesses to yes design for memorability. But be smart about it, really focus on what are the pivotal points what are going to be the peak of the experience.
Gregorio Uglioni 14:33
I think you are naming them a pivotal experience pivotal moments, others are naming them moment of truth. And this is this is extremely, extremely important to focus on them. And as you’re saying we are in the business, who have budgets we need to ensure that we spend but we get all the money and therefore focus on on this moment of truth. Perhaps also thinking about this moment of truth. What’s your view on this wow moments. And there are so two different theories. One is saying you need to create, while moments in order to get the customer back, they will buy more, improve the share of wallet, and others that are saying moments, sorry, while moments are really important, but please ensure to fix the basics, the experience needs to be smooth. If you fix the basics, and you, let’s say comply or fulfill the needs of the customer, then you can create something that it’s a wow moment,
Gustavo Imhof 15:34
I’m going to agree with the second group. Because essentially, I always say, always use the analogy of a parcel delivery because I used to be in that field, right. And I say it’s brilliant to have a very beautiful website that does everything you want. But if the courier actually drops the parcel and throws it on your roof, then doesn’t matter how brilliant the website is, your browser is still on the roof is still messed up the delivery. So if I think back, think back in, in terms of hygiene factors. So if you think in the HR theory, have hygiene factors and motivators, hygiene factors is the bare minimum, right is the fact that if something doesn’t happen, is going to satisfy you. If it does, congratulations, you’ve done your job. Without those, you’re never going to tell someone, you need that first. And then you can drive satisfaction while now the thing that’s really important to keep in mind about well moments is what is what makes something Well, it’s the lights, what is the light is exceeding expectations, right. So the customer goes in thinking one thing, and somehow you go one level up, right, you go out you over deliver. That’s essentially what it is. Now, if you think about it is very dangerous to do. Because once you over deliver, you take the risk of setting a new expectation, right? The customer knows you’re able to do that. So they think well, that’s what I want next time. What if you have to work again, you’re going to raise the bar even further. And that becomes a bit of a cycle where yes, you can probably increase share of wallet, you can probably increase word of mouth and other positive behaviors. But the question is, is the value generated higher than the costs that you committed to try that? Well, and the further you go in that cycle, the less profitable it becomes?
Gregorio Uglioni 17:32
Yes, and the big question is that if it’s long lasting, it’s create value in the long term in the long run. Because exactly as you’re saying, if I want to argue, let’s make the easiest example to make that understandable. You buy something, as you said, you get it, you get it at home, and you have done for the next thing that you want to buy, let’s say, five 5% discount, but then it’s my new expectation if I buy something in your company to get 5%. And if you want to wow me, then give me 10%. And therefore it’s not the way to have long lasting solutions. And there there are some some people discussing and sharing if you want to do that, while one customer but then make quite a lot of noise around that. Sharing that through social media and so on. Because you did once people know that get aware of your brand and that you are you’re creating this wow moment, but don’t set the expectation to always over deliver because it’s extremely difficult. And and going back to what you said and I think this is also extremely important. Sorry, if you’re not really focused on on your chapter, but I really enjoyed what you said is exactly I buy something and then delivery company need to deliver that. And if it’s not delivered properly, then the experience is not a good experience. And I think also the What’s your view on this the difference between an experience defined by a company this is only one piece as you said the payment or or let’s say the the booking of the of the table, it compared to the customer experience, the customer experience for you in your case was I go out from home, I go to the restaurant, I eat I get everything what what I need, and then I get back home for the restaurant was only one piece of text appearance. How is it possible for companies in future to cope with Dave Andover of experiences in order to create these memories?
Gustavo Imhof 19:35
I think you’re hitting a very strong point, right? And I would say that if you’re looking from the perspective of the company, you’re looking in terms of processes, right you’re looking at processes, steps by steps, etc, etc. That he experienced with the customer doesn’t my experience with with that cabaret didn’t start when I walked through the door, but it started much earlier. It started when I decided to book or before that right started when I was looking for something for first to go treat in London, then decided to book. But then my travel from my hotel to the venue is also part of my experience. Now I was lucky enough that my hotel was literally on the same streets, which reduced the opportunities have been going wrong. But ultimately, if I had to take, let’s say, the tube, so I had to take the London Underground, and I was surrounded by drunk people at 7pm at night. So people that started partying very early on, if I was surrounded by drunk people, and they were harassing us, that would have made a terrible experience for me. And chances are, I probably would remember that more than the highlights of the cabaret. So that’s a piece I wrote years ago saying that very, very few brands in the world are going to be able to own the end to an experience of their customer. They are at the mercy of other partners and into collaborate to make life as easy as possible. But anyone thinking they can own the experience of their customer end to end are in for a very, very bad surprise, sooner or later.
Gregorio Uglioni 21:13
And what you’re saying is exactly also one that one of the experience that I had, I was in New York, and we asked for a specific restaurant, we did, we were not able to find it. And then we asked for a cab to go there. And we showed the address, and it was 100 meter fire far away. But the guy driving the car didn’t told us that it was 100 meter far away. And therefore he drove us to there. And it was a few minutes travel. And we asked why didn’t tell you that it was 100 meter far away. And it’s something I remember, I have a memory about that and not perhaps about what we ate there. And how it was the restaurant because it was the end to end experience. Perhaps you mentioned that there are not so many company or a few companies that own the complete experience to have an example or to you can you share an example?
Gustavo Imhof 22:14
That’s going to be a very awkward silence. Gregorio. I’m thinking I’m thinking, I think like, the one example that that came to mind would be like, if you think streaming, right, Netflix, Disney plus Amazon Prime, you could think they own the entire experience. But no, because they’re dependent on my broadband working, my robot goes bad, I cannot access them. If my 4g goes back, I cannot access them. So I don’t have any brand that comes to mind where they own the entire end to end experience. And I that’s going to be a challenge that’s going to bug me and I’ll definitely let you know if I find one. Because I’ll definitely try to find a solution to that. But I don’t think there is any that would really be completely immune of external interferences, you probably have different degrees, it’s probably a spectrum from less to more involvements. But I don’t think any company will live in autarky.
Gregorio Uglioni 23:11
And to come out elegantly from this discussion, when you will find the example then you’re already invited to the next CX goalkeeper podcast to discuss it that was planned to ask the question that you were not able to answer in order to get you back on my little show.
Gustavo Imhof 23:32
Thank you, Gregorio
Gregorio Uglioni 23:35
joke, aside, I think if we are speaking about this end to end experience, what what is coming to my mind is about all these ecosystems that are creating that companies are collaborating together in order to fix that, but I also don’t have an example and to end because also, as you said, there are different customer needs. And based on the customer needs them experience can start and then memories can can be created. And also coming back to to your chapter what I really think it’s it’s interesting or fascinating, you you shared with us also the forgetting curve, the peak end rule, but and there are so these memorable, very memorable variables. Could you please explain a bit what what is exactly?
Gustavo Imhof 24:25
Sorry, I think there was a bit of a delay and analysis your question
Gregorio Uglioni 24:29
going to the last piece of your of your chapter there are so you are sharing this forgetting curve, then pick and roll and then you’re sharing about this memories variables. What’s what’s Could you please elaborate a bit on that?
Gustavo Imhof 24:46
Yeah, so the memory variables are I’m going to be completely transparent completely ripped it off from from this book, impossible to ignore from Carmen Simon. That kind of gave me all my perspective on on memory, essentially what what Dr. Simon say is those 15 levers, I don’t remember how she calls them. But those 15 levers are what are going to impact the ability to make an experience memorable. And it’s a combination of those, the more we can engineer those into the communication into the experience, the more likely we are to remember the information, the experience, and act upon it. And what’s really interesting is that you have things that would be in contrast to each other, right? You’d have contrast and familiarity. You’d have familiarity and novelty, right? Those things are at odds, you can have something that is new and familiar at the same time. Right? You can have something that’s familiar and different. So it’s really interesting, because instead of saying, look, there’s one, one way to go about it, you have 15 elements. And you just need to find a way of combine as many of them as you can to make the experience memorable. And that’s one thing that’s probably one of the best books I’ve ever read in terms of in terms of shaping my professional life, like many things is not even a customer experience book. It’s always those books that come from different sources, different angles that are most insightful.
Gregorio Uglioni 26:16
But I think this is also the interesting about customer experience that you can pick from older discipline scientists, the best out of them, and then recreate and reusing that re leveraging that in customer experience. And perhaps my last question on this term, the second part of our podcast is, what is the best memory that you have about your experience, writing customer customer experience 3 book.
Gustavo Imhof 26:48
That’s going to be the most boring and annoying answer I can give you, Gregorio but I don’t remember much from it. And the main reason is, because as you know, I write so much content, I’m always writing stuff. It’s it’s just facing to normality, you know, it’s just routine. Now, however, the best thing is when I did receive the books, and I could actually touch it, and really see it tangibly, because I’ve written a lot of stuff. And all of this stuff was mostly online, or I could print from the printer. But having an actual book, that was such a pinch me moment was unbelievable. But it wasn’t about the writing, it was about kind of seeing it materialize in front of me, I guess.
Gregorio Uglioni 27:31
It’s not boring, it’s a reality. If you can touch it, feel it, it’s it’s easier to remember that Then something that you are writing, perhaps long nights, because you were writing, you were editing, re editing and so on, and therefore it’s fully understandable. Now the podcast is going to the last part of the discussion. And this is what I really like and really enjoy it. We want to learn more about you, Gustavo. And the first question I would like to ask it’s a, as you said, you are writing a lot of articles, you are a coach, you are creating content. How can you ensure to have a satisfactory life work balance?
Gustavo Imhof 28:13
That’s the thing. I don’t believe in work life balance, I believe you work life harmony, right. So it’s about having the two of them fitting together. Balance implies that you need to put as much time on work as you do on personal life. And those are completely different. And I disagree, because as you said, right, I do. I don’t just have a day job. But I have other activities I do on the side. And the way I look at it is every time I’m writing content, whether it’s for my LinkedIn, or that is commissioned by another company, every time I’m writing content, I am improving my professional prospects. But I’m also improving my my personal life, right, because I’m, I’m not helping my life right now. But I’m helping Gustavo in 40 years time when he wants to retire. So I’ll focus more on work life harmony, I think that it’s important to make sure you need you give enough space to every part of your life. But I don’t believe if we’re to put it into a Venn diagram, there probably will be a lot of overlap between work and life in the way I see it.
Gregorio Uglioni 29:20
And I think that exactly extremely important to work on something that you’re passionate that that you’re interested in, because then it’s more or morning together with your life in compared to so if you’re doing a job that you are not add to it. You already mentioned to me in our discussion, one book is customer experience three. The second one is what the book that LPU speaking or explaining the memorable variables. Is there an older book that you would like to share with the audience that use you’re saying, this is a book that I really like I really enjoyed it. or alchemy during my career.
Gustavo Imhof 30:05
I think that the one book that really stands out to me is atomic habits by James Clear, when it came out, I think it was 2019. It was by far the best book of that year. And I loved it because it kind of took the power of habits from Charles Duhigg, and put it on steroids really helped to understand it in a more granular, more detailed, more, almost mechanical level helped me to really understand a different way of approaching things. And one thing that really, really resonated with me is that idea of, we don’t try to act around confirming or working towards a goal, right, our actions are there to confirm an identity that we have. So if I say that I am someone who exercises, I’m going to get out of my way to exercise because I have that self image. And the brain hates to have to prove itself wrong. So I think that it was when it came out. It was a really strong book that had a lot of impact on me, and helped me drive quite a few changes that ultimately culminated in, among other things in contributing to customer experience three. So that’s definitely a very strong one on my list.
Gregorio Uglioni 31:22
Thank you, Gustavo. And the second last question is the usual question. If somebody would like to contact you, what’s the best way to contact you and for sure, I will share all the links in the in the show notes.
Gustavo Imhof 31:35
I think that the best way is by far my LinkedIn, I spend a lot more time than any normal human being should spend on LinkedIn. So I’m always connected, if anyone wants to follow connect share ideas, is probably the best path to go and is the only social media I’m actually active on. So find me on LinkedIn is the best path.
Gregorio Uglioni 31:57
Thank you. And this is my way. Last question is the Gustavo’s golden nugget, it something we discussed or something new, that you would like to share with your audience to leave to the audience?
Gustavo Imhof 32:10
So my golden nugget would be there is at least one industry that is completely free of external interferences. And I believe that this would be utilities. So water companies depend only on themselves. And the pressure to further government with a lot of them are government run, to deliver their services. So they are companies that are completely free of external interferences in designing their experiences. They’re just not the most exciting industries there is.
Gregorio Uglioni 32:44
Thank you very much, Gustavo. And as usual, I’m not commenting, your golden nugget because it’s your nugget. The last thing that I want to say is thank you very much for your time.
Gustavo Imhof 32:55
Thank you, Gregorio. It’s been my pleasure.
Gregorio Uglioni 32:57
It was really a big pleasure and I hope that the audience enjoyed as much as I enjoyed this discussion. It was really nice interesting discussion with an outstanding guests like Gustavo, I can say thank you very much. Bye bye grazie mille, arrivederci.
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