CX in B2B with Michael Brandt – E31 – REPLAY

CX Goalkeeper with Michael Brandt – S1E31 is about CX in B2B Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had a smart discussion with Michael Brandt

LinkedIn Headliner: Helping B2B companies improve customer retention and revenue growth | Voice of Customer | Complaint Management | Customer Journey Mapping | Keynote Speaker | Panel Moderator

My learnings:

  • There are a lot of CX trainings on the market. There is a need for proper recognition of the good ones.
  • The ECXO – European Customer Experience Organization has 500 members. It allows a forum for CX practitioners and CX professionals to discuss in their languages with an European flavor.

Difference between B2B and B2C:

  • It is not only one customer you need to convince several people (purchasing committee) about your product.
  • Consider the product life-cycle
  • Ensure the replacement of the existing product with the next one after the contract ends.

The relationship manager needs an in depth relationships with the customer (it’s not a contact center)

  • It starts before selling product
  • Focus on specific customer requirements and needs
  • Service recovery paradox, if you try to solve issues, the customers will understand you better.
  • Different volumes (data)

His book suggestion:

  • Customer What? by Ian Golding
  • Customer Experience 3 – Writing Matters

Michael’s golden nugget:

  • Remember customers are human beings. Empathy is important. You can empathize only if you are putting yourself in the customer’s shoes.

“Remember customers are human beings. Empathy is important. You can empathize only if you are putting yourself in the customer’s shoes.” @CxExcellence on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

How to contact Michael:

Thank you, Michael!

#customerexperience #leadership #CXb2b #cxgoalkeeper


Gregorio Uglioni 0:03
Ladies and gentlemen, great pleasure to have Michael Brandt with me. And we are also live on LinkedIn, LinkedIn live the first time for my podcast together with Michael Brandt. It’s really a big pleasure because I can say we are CX friends. We met the first time in the UK several years ago. And from this point in time, we are always in contact. And this is great. Hi, Michael, how are you?

Michael Brandt 0:31
Hi, Thanks for inviting me, Gregorio.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:34
It’s great pleasure to every year you have really big, big experience, you are well known on the on the market on the customer experience side. It’s really outstanding to every year, and thank you that you’ll find time during the European Championship, also to have a chat about customer experience. My pleasure. Thank you. And as usual, I start every podcast. In the same way. I would like that you introduce yourself because you know better who you are than me reading from a list of what you did in the past.

Michael Brandt 1:08
Sure, yes, no problem. So actually really started my career actually started my career in the airline business, I was there for a few years, but it’s the airline business is a bit of a professional roller coaster. So I ended up changing and moving to industrial automation with ABB, I was involved in the turbocharger business, and started off in technology transfer, and then spent seven years in Japan as president of the joint venture. And that is really where I got to my passion for customer experience. It was amazing to see how Japanese companies dealt with their customers. And so we had a lot of really good experiences there. And then they came back and it was involved in quality management and customer quality. And was then asked to join the ABB headquarters to be in charge of the voice of customer program and complaint management process. I did that up to the end of last year. So end of 2019.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:23
Thank you, Michael, and great introduction. From my side. One additional question. Even if you said you did that, until last year, now you’re really active, under under different brands. And if some if people are following you on LinkedIn, we see how how big your passion is for for customer experience, where did the Where did everything started with your passion for customer experience?

Michael Brandt 2:52
I’d say it was in Japan really, because the Japanese culture has such a focus on customer satisfaction. We have many experiences there which which were absolutely amazing. Both in my work. And outside, you know, in retail. For instance, we were we had a case where we once we had a foot spa, that we had purchased, and we’ve had it in a cupboard for a couple of years, it didn’t never really work properly. But to dispose of electronic equipment in Japan is very expensive. So we took it back to the store to ask them to dispose of it. And they insisted even though it was out of warranty, and it was more than two years, they insisted on giving us the money back. Because they said it was inconceivable for them, that anybody should have a product of theirs, that they were unhappy with this, this whole cult culture and focus on customers show me that it’s absolutely possible to be customer focused and to be customer oriented. without necessarily spending a huge amount of money. It’s really very much about culture, in a company and and also customer focus and just the way of acting. And that was also very clear in the way that my Japanese colleagues within the joint venture the way they expected us to act towards towards our customers in Japan and so when I came back to Europe, I bought this passion with me and got into this this relationship with customers and how it can be improved. And I think in many cases we fail because we don’t do very simple things. So if you like my, my mission, I think is to go out and to To preach the already these basics that can make such a big difference when it comes to customer service and customer experience.

Gregorio Uglioni 5:09
Am I think I fully agree with you before starting speaking about wow moments and all these topics that perhaps we can discuss later, it’s important to have the basics rights and they need to work properly. In the pre discussion, we also start discussing about trainings. And on customer experience side, I think there are quite a lot of opportunities to get a certification and accreditation, a certificate saying that, that you are expert. And in some cases, it’s about really standing for that you are a C 6pm, also C six B, and in other cases is only participating to half a day workshop. What’s your view on all these trainings that are at the moment on the market?

Michael Brandt 5:58
I think there are I think there are too many certificates, right. And I think it must be difficult for people who are new to the CX industry who want to get a certification, you want to show some professional qualification. And also for companies who are looking for people to join them to hire people who are qualified when it comes to customer experience. It’s difficult for them to figure out, Okay, which of the which are the good ones, which are the lots of good ones. And I think that’s a problem. I think it will be great if the CX industry could find some standard, some common standard a little bit like, as we discussed the CFA that we could say, Okay, this is the this is the industry standard for a customer experience, this is the qualification, and then I think it would take away all that uncertainty, and would be a big step forward, because I think, you know, then then we know what we’re talking about. It’s possible, so maybe to do it in, in degrees. So a little bit like, you know, the judo you know, the belt system, you know, to start off with beginners, let’s say, you know, with, I’m not a judo class either exactly which, which, which order the colors go in. But if we’re looking at, let’s say, six sigma, you know, the belts, so starting off with the, you know, with it with a white belt and a yellow belt, right, and then going to the Green Belt and black belt, so we could, you know, we could, that could be something set up like that, taking into account, for instance, the experience that the person has acquired, how many years they’ve been in the business, what kind of projects they have they’ve completed. And I think this would be a lot more valuable, and also say more about the candidate than the systems that we have in place at the moment. So I think there’s certainly room for development there.

Gregorio Uglioni 8:00
I fully agree with what you’re saying. But on the other side, also, to bring a bit older view on that, if there are so many trainings, so many certification, it means that now customer experience is getting relevant. And it means companies are interested in doing that. And for sure, not everybody has the most professional ones, but at least it’s thought it started discussion. And we are also seeing in and as you said in Japan, there is another culture around customer experience compared to Europe, and therefore it’s important to progress and to have this discussion.

Michael Brandt 8:37
I absolutely agree with you. I think, you know, the more that the customer experience is spoken about, you know, especially within companies, the better it is, you know, I think it’s the more visible it is on the C suite radar and senior managers radar, the better chance we have developing customer experience across the board. So yes, I absolutely agree with that. I you know, and I’m not saying it’s bad. But I’m saying it’s it’s an area where we could improve to try and find some, some kind of an industry standard. That’s

Gregorio Uglioni 9:16
sure and and I think what I really like and I’m always mentioning is the customer experience community, these are these experts like you and other people, too, that are approachable that we can discuss. And we already also had a discussion around some topics because I was asking you some some info about about what you are doing. And you were also who we will be discussing discussing some topic and some areas where we were where I have the expertise and I would like that and then I am coming also to the next question and this is around this organization in the different groups. And now we are seeing that the European customer experience organization you is growing quite quickly is extremely successful. And perhaps what’s the idea behind the European customer experience organization?

Michael Brandt 10:08
Yeah, the European customer experience organization started off in Spring this year, we now have about 500. Members. So that’s, that’s really good. The ECXO o was was created to allow a forum where European customer experience practitioners and professionals could could come and exchange views not just in their own languages, right, because we have groups for each of the different countries. But also generally, with a more or less a European flavor. I mean, there are quite a few different organizations that are out at the moment, we’ve got courses a cxpa. And, and you and I are both members. And that’s probably, you know, the industry leader, the main forum, but I don’t think that anybody can can deny that cxpa is a little bit more oriented towards the North American culture, and when it comes to customer experience, culture is is a very important part. And, and so sometimes, you know, some of the the solutions that may be may work well, in the in North America wouldn’t work in in, in Europe, I have some excellent examples from from a previous employer, who had some ideas that they that they implemented in the US, and if if you would have tried those in Europe, it would have been very, very counterproductive, right, just by virtue of a cultural issues, right. And so we wanted to really create a place where Europeans could come together, and, and really discuss issues and solutions with a European flavor. That, that being said, you don’t absolutely have to be in Europe to be a member. So we have I think we have at least one member I know of who’s from Australia, one from Indonesia, and a few from the Middle East. So it’s an open forum. And I think what I like really also about ECXO, though, is that it’s a place where there are a lot of different opinions. But the discussion is always carried out in a, in a respectful, and a civilized, civilized manner. So that’s, I think that’s really important, too, that people should feel free to voice their opinion, even if it’s a dissenting opinion, or let’s say non agreement, without necessarily think that okay, then they’re going to get insulted or, you know, this wouldn’t be okay. And we have plans in the in the future for ECXO to expand our cooperation with with some of the big names in the CX business, as partners to so that we really have access to the latest information about state of the art theories, technologies that are available. And also, I’d also coming back to what we were discussing earlier, also offering training programs also.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:40
Thank you, Michael. And full disclosure, as you said that I a member of the CXPA. But I’m also a member of the European customer experience organization. And I what you’re saying I can, I can say it’s really, really nice to follow the discussion and to see the different ideas, but discussed always in a respectful way. And I think it’s also important in Europe, because we are living in Europe, that we have something that has European flavor, because in the different continents, we are in a different development in customer experience. I see North America that they are the leading because they are already some step is income in comparison to where we are. And like also Middle East. If I think about Dubai, I had a chat with with foreign niets and what they are doing in Dubai, it’s it’s really in future for us. But but but at the end it’s really important to have this European flavor and to understand who is working in customer experience in Europe, in our case in Switzerland, and also having this this exchange because at the end it’s all about having the right connections speaking people and get and get the best, the best ideas

Michael Brandt 15:00
Absolutely. And as I said, you know, being a member of ECXO doesn’t prevent one from being a member of cxpa either, right? I mean, they these aren’t. It’s not it’s not a competition, right? I think, you know, we need to tap into the knowledge base that’s available. And, and these organizations allow us to do that. And I think that’s important

Gregorio Uglioni 15:21
No, sure…. And it’s not like a soccer team that you have only one that you like, but you can be part of more than one.

Michael Brandt 15:30
I like more than one soccer team also.

Gregorio Uglioni 15:34
Exactly. It was really a great introduction, and now perhaps some some topics around something that for quite a lot of people, it’s new, but it’s not really new. And we are speaking about customer experience in the business to business world. And you are really a big expert. What’s your view? What are the differences between customer experience in b2b and b2c?

Michael Brandt 15:59
Well, I think the first thing is that, when you’re talking about customer experience in b2b, you’re looking at trying to convince several people rather than one or two people about a product, right. So when you when you buy something in b2b, very often you have a whole purchasing committee. That’s, that’s involved. You have supply chain, you have people operations, you have the finance department, right. So you have to really cater to all the stakeholders when you’re trying to sell something to them. It’s not like B2C, where, you know, if you’re buying, let’s say, someone’s buying a new cell phone, it’s very emotional. And yes, they do their research, obviously, and look at the specs. But at the end of the day, it’s one person or two people making a decision. It’s not a whole committee. And then also in b2b, very often you’re looking at a product lifecycle. So you really have to take into account, you know, how long the product is going to be used for? What are the going to be the needs during that that lifecycle? And how long is its life? And what happens when it needs to be replaced? And actually, the moment that you have sold your, your product, you’re also then should be concentrating on? And how am I going to convince this person to replace this product with one of my products when it’s finished. And so it’s, it’s a whole the whole process. That’s where, you know, customer service and customer support really, really becomes important in b2b. I’m not saying that it’s not important in in b2c, but in b2b, you know, this, this is what is going to make your name, right. I mean, I remember sitting in on on a presentation once by somebody who was representing a mining company. And he was telling us a story about how they’d be the service issue at a mine in Australia. And within within half a day, that story had already been transmitted to their mine in South Africa. And then within, let’s say, a week, it had already been transmitted to another mine in South America. And so when the service guy turned up to do the service, a week later, and in South America, you know, the guys are telling you, okay, and you don’t make the same mistakes as they made in Australia a week ago, right? Word gets around very quickly. And so you have to really, really be careful that you, you get things in perspective in the service. The other big difference, of course, is the volume. I mean, you know, if we’re talking about customer experience in b2b and b2c, generally, in b2b, you tend to have a much closer connection to the customer than you might do in b2c. I mean, we’re talking about key account managers, or we’re talking about issues where if there’s a breakdown, the person is not going to call a contact and he’s going to call his contact his key account manager or the service manager and say, Hey, I have a problem I need you to come and fix it. So we’re also talking here about relationships, which also very important so these one on one relationships, and it’s why very often you hear of customer and supplier going out and playing golf together and things like that, which of course, wouldn’t necessarily happen in the b2c environment and very rarely, but in the b2b environment. It’s it’s not so unusual. And so relationships are important too. And also, if you’re dealing with customer data, then also you also have different different volumes. I mean, if you’re if you’re talking about Apple and you’re doing feedback research on an iPhone, the the kind of volumes of data they’re going to get are going to be much bigger than a company that sells, let’s say, generators, large generators or power grids, you know, like ABB, where I used to work. So the volumes of data are different. And also the the also the ability, then to follow up with customers is much greater, because you have that kind of relationship with them. So so those are I see them as being the big differences between CX in the b2b and the b2c environment.

Gregorio Uglioni 20:52
Thank you, Michael, I think you mentioned really quite a lot of interesting topics. I am not sure that we can cover all of them today, but you are already invited to the second half later. And one topic that I would like to deep dive is you mentioned quite a lot of stakeholder management volume and interrelationship with his key account manager. And nowadays, we are always hearing on the b2c side, we have customer service. And on the b2c b2b side, we have this customer success team. We what are the key success factors for this customer success team?

Michael Brandt 21:36
I think Customer Success start actually, before you’ve sold the product. Customer Success is about finding the best solution for what your customer wants to achieve. So so the customer might do their research. And they might say, okay, they might come to you and say, Okay, well, I’d like to, I’d like to order this. Or they might actually come to you with their problem and say this, this is the issue that I have, this is what I want to resolve. And customer success is then looking at the customer situation, and proposing or recommending the best possible solution for the customer. I think this is what customer success is about and then obviously supporting them once the product has been sold to achieve those objectives. Customer service, I think it’s just the ongoing support that you have once once you’ve sold a product, or also before, you know in the run up providing information and but obviously, you know, in a b2c environment, it’s not as tailor tailor made. As in a b2b environment, I think that’s the difference between customer success and customer customer service. So customer success is really focusing on a specific customer’s requirements and objectives and trying to propose and, and ascertain what the best solution is for them to reach those objectives.

Gregorio Uglioni 23:13
And if I try to summarize what you’re saying, at the end, you said it’s not before we are selling, it’s during the selling. And then earlier you mentioned it’s also to sell the next one, the next renewal cycle, it means there are also customer journeys and in the b2b world that need their are met and are created.

Michael Brandt 23:36
Absolutely. And you know, it’s it’s interesting, but very often it’s it’s your performance during that, you know, the lifecycle that can very much influence what happens later, I have a story of one company that I worked for a project that we had, that we really messed up, the specifications were wrong, and the plant never really achieved the output that it should have done. And but over the years, we really made our best efforts to try and get it right. And then there was the project for the follow on or for the extension of this plant was put out to tender and we did. And but we figured that we had absolutely no chance at all, you know, in light of the problems that we’d had. And surprisingly enough, we were actually given the contract. And so we went back and we said okay, after all the problems that we had, why did you give us the the second the follow up contract? And they said, because a you put so much effort into trying to figure out what the problem was and putting it right, first of all, and secondly, We knew that you weren’t going to make the same mistake again. And so and so you know, the even when things go wrong, and I think this is a whole service recovery paradox, right? That even if things go wrong if the customer sees that you’re really trying to make an effort to put things right, and I think this is something that customers appreciate, even if you don’t manage. And I think this is important to to, even if you don’t necessarily succeed, if a customer see if a customer sees that you’ve done everything you could possibly do to put a problem right. Now, I think customers appreciate that. You know, so even if you don’t succeed,

Gregorio Uglioni 25:46
I think this is a great piece of advice. And this is also in the b2c boardroom. At the end, we are all humans, we make mistakes. But the question is the willingness that we have to fix the mistakes, and to empathize also also with other people. It’s really interesting. And it’s a bit of a strange question. I don’t know if you have an answer. But my question would be in the b2c world, we speak about Zappos about Ritz Carlton, Southwest Airlines as the best in class for customer experience. What, which companies are the best in class in the b2b world?

Michael Brandt 26:27
I think that’s difficult to say, because the industries are so so different, that they tend to keep their, their cars fairly close to their chest, I think, you know, there are some, some big players, for instance, in in the industry that I was involved in, when you were talking about, you know, big companies like GE, or, or ABB, of course, or Siemens, for instance. These are companies that have excellent relationships, excellent reputations. And what’s of course, important is also the technology, you know, customers are very often impressed with with technological advances, how much a company is spending on r&d, what kind of advances they’re making, and this can affect the reputation in b2b across it? Same with b2c? Right? But certainly it can, it can make a big difference in in b2b. What other companies have have created reputations, difficult to say, I think it’s, you know, there are a lot out there. And I think that we also have to look at some of the smaller companies do their, their work in an excellent manner in on a day to day basis. And I think, you know, this is a little bit of a pity sometimes that we tend to focus on, you know, on these big companies, and there are small companies out there doing an excellent job every day, day in day out. And I think we have to recognize that we don’t necessarily know who they are, but we should nevertheless, you know, recognize them and say, you know, great job, where you’re out there, you know, you’re doing a great job.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:14
It’s really nice to see also the parallels to the b2b b2c word, because at the end, there are really quite a lot of small shops also doing now during COVID crisis, that did an outstanding job. If I think also next to us, there are quite a lot of small jobs, shops, you go there, they know your name, they know your they know your preferences, they know what you want. They know quick is low service. And they ask you some question. I have a small son, and they always ask our small son, and this, this these questions, and the team, they don’t have a CRM in place with all this information is everything inside using it?

Michael Brandt 28:58
And I think you’re absolutely right. Would you say that a lot of parallels between b2b and b2c? Of course, there are because ultimately, you know, we’re dealing with human beings. And one of the things I’ve noticed, you know, over the past year or so, is we talk a lot about data, data analytics, you know, people are saying surveys are, are out of out of fashion surveys are dying off. Customers don’t like surveys anymore, we should really be focusing on gathering data. And absolutely, I think the data has its place. And I also agree that there are a lot of surveys out there that are badly designed, and there’s no follow up and they shouldn’t exist. But I found that if a survey is well designed, and there’s a very, very strong process, follow up process behind it. feedback to the customers about you know, what lessons have been learned from the survey, what’s going to be done, that it can really trigger dialog with the customers. And of course, here again, b2b has an advantage over b2c By virtue of the numbers, right that the volume. But But we found certainly when I was at ABB, we found that when we started our NPS program, it really created a dialog with with a lot of customers who said up, it’s nice to know that we’ve been listened to, it’s nice to know that you’re actually giving telling us what we’ve been telling you coming back and showing that you’ve listened. The whole follow up discussions, were were amazing in many cases, because customers felt that they were being involved also in finding the solution. So it was really created a bonding exercise. And we had customers sometimes writing your tests and saying, When is when is your next survey? And I have things I want to say? And we say, well, you don’t have to wait for the survey to tell us what you want to say, right? And then we had another in another country when we were talking about changing the rhythm and extending the time between the surveys, so as not to annoy you or, you know, customers, as they say, No, no, no, no, we want them because the the the surveys, they always lead to discussions, which are very fruitful dialogue. And so we really want to keep this framework. So done properly. You know, they can really bring a lot. And I think, as I said, we have to remember that customers are human beings. And gathering data is fine. But I think we also need to look for opportunities to maintain this dialogue with our customers. This is one way of doing it.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:55
Thank you. And I think it was really amazing to have this discussion with you. And outstanding inputs. Now it’s time to learn a bit more about you, Michael, I’m always saying Michelle or Michael athey. And it’s the same as the German or the English. Sorry for that. I know that, that you have quite a lot of activities. And my question is, how can you ensure with this setup with this COVID situation, and everything, what is happening in our world to have a satisfactory work life balance?

Michael Brandt 32:30
I think that, obviously, now I’m working from home, so you know, just for the past year, so that’s been I must say, I’ve enjoyed it very much, it’s given me a lot more time to spend at home with my wife, and of course, also with my dog, you know, I get to go walking with Him every day and that I really enjoy is something that like that I couldn’t do when I was when I was in the office. I think that the the whole work from home issue that has arisen since the beginning of COVID, it’s a little bit of a double edged sword. So on the one hand, you know people being able to, to work from home, not having to commute. And being able to juggle things at home. On one hand positive, on the other hand, can be a challenge. So if you have children who, who are not yet in school age, and you have to manage them a home is not my case, but I can empathize with people who are in a situation like that. Not not easy to do, right. But on the other hand, I think also again, we’re human beings and a lot of people like the social aspect of going to work, you know, talking to colleagues face to face, you know, chatting at the, you know, around the coffee machine going going for lunch to to the canteen. And so I think for you know, for some people, this was another challenge not being able to do this and being cut off. So but we’ve seen I think from the the reaction to, you know, customer to company saying, Okay, now we want our staff back in the office, we see how many people are saying, well, no, actually, I’d rather be be more flexible and not work the whole time from the office. So I think this has been really a turning point. And it’s going to be interesting to see how this develops over the next year or so. Are we going to see off you know, companies downsizing their office space, and saying, Okay, we’re going to have a lot smaller offices, more people working from home, or at least part of the week and have them these hot desks where you know, you come in nobody has they’re actually assigned desks but you come in and and grab whatever whichever one’s free and you just plug your stuff in. And then that’s it. So it’s going to be interesting to see how that how this develops. I don’t think it’s quite finished yet it it’s really an evolution. And but of course, then, you know, companies are going to have to adapt also, because we’ve been, we’ve been dealing with this now for a year where companies make the excuse, you know, COVID, you know, people working from home processes are slower, you know, I think people are getting fed up with this excuse, and companies are going to have to decide, okay, well, how are we going to work? Now, if we got people for working from home? How can we make the processes happen, we adapt them so that we get back to the efficient working. So we’re not we don’t keep having to tell our customers. Sorry, but COVID in I think this this, get out of jail free card is starting to wear out.

Gregorio Uglioni 35:54
Sure, and I think we are at the beginning of the next phase, and we are developing the next phase, understanding how the new way of working will be in future. And then they add it will have positive sides. As you mentioned, it will have negative sides. And and we need to find to find the right balance. But at the end, only something that you didn’t mention yet was one thing is also the opportunity for a company if you need to hire somebody, it’s not only in Zurich, but you can find through the globe, the best person for the job, then it’s a big opportunity.

Michael Brandt 36:31
Yeah, absolutely. I think I think that remote remote working opens up a lot more opportunities to opens up also the pool of talent for companies. You’re absolutely right. Yeah.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:42
Thank you. The next question, I would like to ask, is there a book that you’re reading? Or you say, this is one book that I would suggest to the audience that something that where you can learn something?

Michael Brandt 36:54
Yeah, I mean, I, I certainly think that if you’re a CX beginner, then I would recommend Ian Golding’s book, you know, customer what? I think I think that his book is really great for somebody who’s just starting out in, in customer experience, it really gives them a good overview of customer experience in general. And in a language that it’s very easy to, to understand. So So I think that’s a good thing. And then the other one is the book, I think that you also contributed to very recently. So I think that that’s also good. It’s a series, if I’m not mistaken, is the third book in the series, right. And I think that’s really great, because it’s the short chapters that cover various different topics. So in this book, you actually get a whole load of different views on different topics. And so I think that is also really good value for money. So that’s, so you can play I’m giving you an opportunity here to plug your own book, or you’re a co author, at least, I think I think it’s really good initiative.

Gregorio Uglioni 38:18
Thank you, Michael. And again, full disclosure, I did not ask MIchael to say that.

Michael Brandt 38:24
He didn’t pay me either. No, no, I have read it. And I thought it was a it was great work. You know, it’s a good idea to bring all these people together with a different viewpoints that different focus areas. It’s, so it covers a lot in in a small and very, very well priced booklet.

Gregorio Uglioni 38:48
Thank you very much for the feedback and more than happy to pay you a coffee or be the next. If somebody from the audience would like to connect with you to contact you, what’s the best way to contact you? Well, certainly,

Michael Brandt 39:03
I’m always happy to connect to people on LinkedIn. And otherwise, they can contact me through my through my email address, which is info at CX, of course, Dash So info at CX dash And of course, LinkedIn also, as I said, always happy to connect.

Gregorio Uglioni 39:28
Yes, and if you are not following Michael, please do that, because it’s really creating a lot of value added and you can learn quite a lot. Michael is always the right story for the right topic. And it’s really outstanding to following and now we are coming to the My really last question, and this is Michael, golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or we didn’t discuss that you would leave to the audience.

Michael Brandt 39:55
Right. I think the really important thing is always to remember that customers are human. And we talk a lot about empathy. And empathy is important. But you can only empathize if you really try and put yourself in the customers shoes. I noticed that very often, particularly, you know, talking about stories, you know, when I was working in the airline business, I was a station manager in for an airline in Munich in Germany for a while. And I realized the travel is very stressful. For a lot of people. For some people, it’s fine to love travel, some are problem. But for a lot of people, it’s very stressful. And this stress manifests itself in different ways. And so they would arrive at the airport, and sometimes they would get into an argument with with one of the check in agents or something like that. And I will be called over and it was always important to try and find out, you know, what is what’s the problem? Why is this person so stressed, they could have been traveling because a loved one was ill, or had passed away, you know, or they could be traveling with two very smart single parent traveling alone with two very small children. Also not so easy, very stressful. There are so many different reasons why people get stressed when traveling. And so it was really important to try and figure out, you know, why people get stressed, why they were upset, and what the contributing factors were. And I think that’s the same for any business. You know, in customer service, if customers are irritated, or angry or stressed. We should try find out what the causes. And once we’ve done that, then very often, it makes it a lot easier to solve the problem.

Gregorio Uglioni 41:52
Thank you very much, Michael. And as usual, I’m not commenting your golden nugget because it’s Michael golden nugget. The last thing I want to say thank you very much for your time, Michael,

Michael Brandt 42:01
thank you for having me, Gregorio and I look forward to that beer

Gregorio Uglioni 42:05
sure and also to the audience and our colleagues following us on the LinkedIn life. It was again, a great discussion with Michael. I hope that you enjoyed this discussion as I did, because I really like the patient that Michael is spreading about customer experience. Thank you very much. Grazie mille, arrivederci.

Michael Brandt 42:25
grazie, ciao!

Gregorio Uglioni 42:28
If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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