CX leadership on managerial level with Silvana Buljan – E49

Release Date: 22. November 2021

The CX Goalkeeper had a smart discussion with Silvana Buljan

LinkedIn Headline: Business Transformation: Customer Centricity // Customer & Employee Experience

In this episode you will learn:

– Some insights on the ECXO

– Culture is key in a customer centric transformation

– There is no standard approach to start a CX transformation, there is no “one fits all” solution

– People have their own agenda. The “system” trains stakeholders to look for their objectives because these are relevant for them.

– Department based objectives can create a misalignment on the overall company targets

– Silvana developed a methodology to assess, measure and improve customer centric leadership competencies which based on 5 pillars:

1) CX Attitude

2) CX Focus

3) CX Drive

4) CX Connect

5) CX Talent

… and much more

Her book suggestion:

Heroic Leadership, Chris Lowney

Silvana’s golden nugget:

Love your customer more than his/her share of wallet.

Love your customer more than his/her share of wallet. @silvanabuljan on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast
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How to contact Silvana:

– https://www.linkedin.com/in/silvana-buljan-889110/

– https://buljanandpartners.com/en/home/

Thank you, Silvana!

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #podcast #exco #cxtransformation #customerculture #culture #cxstrategy

You can listen to the CX Goalkeeper Podcast on the following platforms:

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:01
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast. Your host, Gregorio Uglioni. will have a smart discussion with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope will enjoy the next episode.

Ladies and gentlemen, today, it is really a big pleasure, Silvana Buljan with me. Hi Silvana, how are you?

Silvana Buljan 0:31
Hi, Gregorio. Good morning. I’m fine. Thank you.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:35
Thank you Silvana, it’s really great that you find time to discuss with me first of all about the European customer experience organization. And then you selected a really, really interesting topic seeks leadership competencies. At managerial level, I think it is one key topic, that it’s really important to create really this nice and impactful customer experience transformation or in general transformation. But before we start deep diving in our discussion, could you please introduce yourself?

Silvana Buljan 1:07
Yeah, sure, I will do well, my name is Silvana, as you already mentioned, I’m German, with Croatian roots. And based now in Madrid, we have been living for almost 20 years. And for also the same time even before that, and since 97, I’m actually engaged as a consultant for for customer strategy topics back then it was the big era of CRM implementations in Europe, where I started as a consultant to all to all to do the change management process, the most utqiagvik view on what CRM actually means for the company, not only implementing systems, and since then, I as a person, also, my company has evolved to really, to really serve this purpose to to make the companies a better place for customers and employees, because the customer centric view is really taking into every single interaction that a customer has with a company independent if it’s via employees, or digital digital channels, or whatever. So this was kind of our obsession, because we have seen in the early days, that so many companies started to focus only on the tech not on the technology, or on the process optimization. But there was so much like inorganically, like, like, stuck in their own views, because they didn’t understand what it means to put themselves in the shoes of the customer. And we actually nobody in the 90s talking about customer journeys, we started to talk about customer journeys in the in the early 2000s, or mid 2000s. Right. But the first decade, but in 97/98, when all the CRM projects were implemented the technologies, nobody really understood the customer view because it was all about consolidating information. Yeah, having just one database, and from there have personalized campaigns for customers. And this is not what customer centricity is about. So this is basically what we have done, since we exist as a company because I found my own company in 2002 Buljan & partners. And we have offices in Madrid, Barcelona, and then also in Germany, in Hamburg. And yeah, I mean, that’s how how it evolves to have less and less the tech, the technical view on customer topics, and customer centricity, and more the strategic Yeah, reality from the customers and also from the employees view to make it happen in organizations.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:47
Thank you very much, Silvana. And as you are mentioning, from Spain, I would say encantado, much more Spanish. I’m not so good that at these languages, I had some courses. But this is another big and long story. One question, we all know that your company is quite successful. And perhaps the question that I have is, What are your customer asking to you? How, how can you differentiate yourself and then the customers select your company to do business with you?

Silvana Buljan 4:20
The usual starting conversation is we’ve done everything. Methodology, measurement, processes, this the design, customer journey, design, customer personas, but still our culture is not customer centric. So we’ve done everything that we that we should do, and they actually use all the methods, journey mapping, persona, Persona definition jobs to be done methods, empathy maps, I mean, tons of materials, big PowerPoints, big ideas, but it did not actually go through the organization as a culture, how to have this customer centric mindset, that anybody independent if this person works in customer experience, or customer service, or marketing or whatever, really understands what their role as an employee is, in making a difference for customers, this is the Euro conversation. So we did everything, but we’re still not there. So what can we do?

Gregorio Uglioni 5:23
I think it totally makes sense. And that’s always what I’m saying, If I could, I would get $1. For each PowerPoint slide that I produced, then I would be millionaire or billionaire. And, therefore, PowerPoint, in PowerPoint, everything looks like pretty well. But then it’s also the execution really important. And the next question that I would like to ask, and this is always I’m asking at the beginning a bit to understand you also better, what are your most important values for you as a person as Silvana, but also in your company.

Silvana Buljan 5:58
So really, it’s, we are very honest, we never, we would never do anything for our customers that produces value for us, but not for the customer. That’s why for instance, we never engaged as, as exclusive partners for software, something. So the big players, all they all have their life partner companies, who implements other systems, we actually don’t do that sometimes, in many cases. And when it comes to employee engagement, we actually work and recommend the company that doesn’t work with consultants, they also they always want to have a direct contact with with the end customer. And we recommend that because they’re the best solution, even if they don’t work on a partnership models. So for us as a company, and for me as a person, this is very important, it’s we do what makes sense and gives value to our customers, we’re not corporate centric, there, we’re really customer centric, even if that sometimes means that we do less, or we are out and others are in, because it wouldn’t make sense for the customer. So this is one of our key values. And also to to really understand, not oblige the customer to follow our method or the method, because every company is different, they have a different standing where their cultural currently is, well how the employees are engaged to the company, and how the customer relationships are the complaints that are coming. And so really, there is no standard fit approach, you can have different phases, because when you start, you need to analyze right or do something to understand your customers and challenger employees. But there is not one method, that that fits everything. So it’s really about letting the customer decide if they want to go more for, like evolution in terms of, we’ve done some things we want to improve, we need our pace, our own pace, and we don’t want a revolution or sometimes they say we want the revolution and start really from from the green field and open up ourselves for both customer and employees and really from their transform. So for us, it’s also one of the other values most important that we need to adapt as a as a service provider to the pace of our customers and cannot oblige them to push them towards this is the way and you need to do this. And you need to do this in three months. And this in five months doesn’t 10 months. For us. It hasn’t worked.

Gregorio Uglioni 8:27
And it makes totally sense and elaborating a bit on what you are mentioned that at the end, it’s accepting diversity, this is also a value that it’s extremely relevant for the European customer experience organization. And you are playing an important role in the European customer experience organization. Why are you part of this great organization.

Silvana Buljan 8:51
Actually, I have a long relationship in the past with with Ricardo as he is passionate as I am and we were interacting and he contact me in the past years to you know, give some feedback on things that he was writing or thinking. And when he actually came up to me with this idea said yes, this is what Europe needs, because all European European companies that we work for, that we interact with, they are so tired and sick of the Amazon, the Apple example the Nordstrom example. There’s all these examples they like I mean, they like to see them as best cases and learn but but there’s so much kind of tired of having examples. They’re not coming from Europe and in Europe, we have so many examples of great companies, especially in the family run businesses, they they you know they don’t talk that much about it. But when it comes to the customer to the to the culture and how they see the customer is a person and the employee is a person. We have so much better examples than the US can can position but we talk we don’t talk about it in here. If you’re more you’re we’re more risk served about, about talking about the things that we are doing right. So also give this space for European based companies to show what they do, how they do it, how they can learn from each other as a community, this is fundamental for Europe fundamental, because we do have a different reality, we have a complete different reality, when it comes to labor laws, we have a complete different reality, when it comes to GDPR rules, we have a complete different reality when it comes to really also the the selling techniques, rights or motivation techniques, because the American way is not the European way we can learn from it, but you cannot adapt it. And all these campaigns that I have seen in in some European companies about employee engagement, that that that take us as an example, for instance, an American company, well, there is some resistance in the in the, in the employee base, because we as a persons are different and we value other things and, and other things are important for us relevant for us. So I think it was the right timing. And the clear need that in Europe, we have something own that yes, learns from international best practices, but it’s also able to adapt it to the European reality.

Gregorio Uglioni 11:15
And it makes totally sense use pocos, that you are common. You’re working in Spain, half of me is Italian. And I’m also looking at the Italian setup, at the end there, there are quite a lot of small enterprises and the country, it’s really great because they’re focused on family business growing the family business. And this is something that it’s not comparable, with Apple, Amazon, Ritz Carlton, and all these, these this example that that we are using, speaking about a European customer organization, and it’s a fast growing organization, and for all the audience listening to this podcast, it’s free of charge, you don’t need to pay to participate. And it’s quite easy to start the collaboration because then you have the opportunity like if now to speak with Savannah, and there’s great interactions. Savannah, from your your point of view, what is the most important you like most from the European customer experience advantage.

Silvana Buljan 12:16
It’s really the community that all of us who are participating actively, we do that out of a genuine interest and not looking for selling ourselves our services, we really look to contribute. So if you look at the contributions, look at the community members, the emphasis that needs also once a month to drive the organization and and get more and more people on board is really about sharing it’s about sharing knowledge is about offering relevant content about also introducing new peoples who who start being engaged with customer experience, give them the knowledge and ideas. What it is what it not is because they have access to to really interact with people who have been very many, many, many years engaged in making customer experience real in their own organizations or service providers. And this is the richness that you really have, you can just reach out to people that you that give you that the trust of that. They know what they are talking about. Because Ricardo has been also very selective about who he’s actually approaching to be an ambassador, Ambassador representing a market. And he would he doesn’t accept any just yeah, I’m interested, I want to be an emissary that doesn’t work, you really need to have the credentials, and the experience to be able to be an epicenter for for your market for your country. And this is I think it’s a very clear quality standard.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:46
And it makes totally sense. And I think this is exactly what what I really like is this discussion and creating value. And this is sort of what I am trying to do with this podcast in collaboration with the European customer or customer experience organization. And as as you said at the beginning, it’s really important also the cultural point of view of this transformation and of this discussion on one side on this organization, but on the other side to come to our business topic. It’s also how is it possible to create a culture and then really integrating and engaging also the manager managerial level in customer experience. And we discussed in the discussion there for me, it’s too simple to extremely simplified. There are companies that start with a community of practice on customer experience, they start and then they see oh, they are successful. And then older people start joining this, this community of practice, and then you can grow something or other companies are more top down the CEO, give the mandate please, let’s start and then you start creating something like six manager or VP of CX, but it’s important really that It comes into the culture of a company does customer experience discipline, and you really are touching or willing to discuss about these competencies that are required. Could you please elaborate a bit on that,

Silvana Buljan 15:14
before I start talking about the competencies itself, I would like to actually explain how we came to really talk about these competencies and why it was necessary and why, you know, why why we kind of bumped into it, during the work that we have done for customers. So, as you say, the usual thing is, people say, we need to do something, we need to be more customer centric, we need to start working on customer experience, we are to product focused, the growth has changed. So so so we need to work differently and and think differently in order to be relevant for customers in the future. Because we do not want to be in the in the in the price war, we have a quality product, a quality company, a quality brand. But we still focused too much on what we have what we offer as a product, and we need to be more customer centric now. So yes, there is a need both from top down because they see it and they want something. And usually they start you know, to find a department or people or the audibility partner from from zero, or they say, Look customer marketing, yeah, you marketing people take care of it, or our our bottleneck is our customer service, because we are bad. So we start an operation. So there are different different like initial steps of starting to work in customer centricity of customer experience. So what happens then, so these people who are engaged with a project to start, they start to collect feedback, start measuring, start interviewing customers, looking at the internal processes, looking at customer feedback. And so they discover many things that need to be changed. It goes into cultural change, but it goes into structural change. And once you start talking about structural change, you have all these company politics around. So on the manager level, oh, but that’s my people. That’s my department. Why are you saying this, you can’t make a decision, even if this is the customer, one of what they observe. But there’s a justification. So you start all these, you just observe all these conversations around this silos, the responsibilities, this is my Battlefield, not yours, or don’t put your nose in my in my stuff, because this is what you do. When you start listening to customers and employees and start discovering the things that need to be changed. You actually do it cross in cross company, across departments. And this, this is when the problem starts. So we’ve we’ve done understood, okay, we need to work with the people so that they understand this is not about this is not about who’s now leading and who can say something who can’t and who needs the approval of the boss above and they need to talk in between because there are first Lana’s on the management board. But then he is the marketing guy, he is the sales guy, he is the finance guy, whatever. So. So to have this discussion out of me as a person, you need to always focus on the need for the transformation, the need for change as a company interest. So when we started doing this, again, we understood Yes, there is consciousness about it. But again, people have their own agendas, because the system itself trains them to look for their objectives, because they are being valued or the performance reviews based on their objectives. And these objectives are company, department wise, and not with an overall objective in terms of strategy, but also an overall objective of being more customer centric, then we have an issue. So looking at all these rational and emotional, like obstacles that we’ve seen, we said, okay, let’s find another approach, really working with the managers as people and understanding where they come from as as persons to really and how they lead, right. And then we started to look at methodologies that would actually measure customer centered leadership competencies, and we started to look at different H our tests, there are many psychological tests about values about competencies general about who you are as a person to have a personality checks, but nothing really focused on customer centric competencies to deselect that, so we said okay, if it doesn’t exist we just created so we actually draw from our view more from the project experience and the in the field experience as consultant and trainers. We actually look for HR experts who come from the HR psychological world, which is a totally different world. And I think back 15 years back customer experience in HR was always separated. Now We see more and more that these initiatives about a cultural transformation towards customer centricity is actually co led by the business areas and HR. So this is a good sign already. But in order to, for HR people to accept you and your methodology, it needs to come from HR, because they start talking about competencies about about observable behaviors, about personality. So, you really need to have the psychological edge on it. So we just, you know, we put this team together, coming from business, from the product experience from from the customers reality, and from the HR knowledge, and then we actually created a methodology that would fit both things that somebody who’s not from HR understands the competencies we have selected, and we have grouped them in, in five different areas. The first one is really to have this attitude towards customer centricity really, to like to serve customers. So as an as a first part, in terms of I really like to serve. The other one is about CX focus, also being able to focus on what is important for customers, and then empower employees to go that way. See, X Drive is more the, let’s innovate, let’s be more revolutionarily. That’s you what’s the next thing because we cannot just, we cannot just work on the basics, sometimes we need to reach higher levels, then it’s about a CX Connect, which is more the the, the, the the emotional part, right, it’s about connecting with people as persons, people, customer, but also people, people, employees, and in order to have them on board, right. So these are the different groups that we have defined, where we have selected concrete competencies, for instance, I recognize my employees, or I am able to transmit a clear vision of customer centricity or I really have also emotional control of myself, because we cannot start yelling at people because something went wrong. And we do not learn from mistakes. So really, it’s for the leader for the seeks leader assessment. Now we have, we have 25, clear competencies identified that each leader has a test, you do the online test, and you receive your report and see what is what are your development areas and whatnot, because this is focused then on really being able to lead a customer centric transformation and lead my teams to make customer experience a reality in my organization. And so far, it works pretty well. We have tested it with the with the with the benchmark with the control group, and more and more companies really use the tool to develop their leaders in this customer centric transformation. But again, the way how we came to it was also co creating with our customers, because we’ve seen We’ve seen a need, we’ve analyzed in the market didn’t find anything. So we created a people who are experts in more the HR part and we from the from the CX part,

Gregorio Uglioni 23:05
and it makes total sense to have collaboration in order to create such Yes. And based on what you explained, and it’s really, really brilliant, what what you’re saying, at the end, it’s the outcome. It’s it’s a number, it’s qualitative, its quantitative KPIs. What is the outcome of this of this report?

Silvana Buljan 23:27
The outcome is yes, we have a Do you have a percentage of how your readiness is for for customer experience leadership, so you get a percentage. And we have like in three areas, you can be the advanced, which is actually very high, you can be in the middle or you can be under development. For each one of the competencies you actually see if you’re underdeveloped, if you’re optimal. Also, if you if you kind of over delivering because, and this is also very important to understand customer centricity. Again, all of us who are in this business, we always say it’s not about giving the customer what he or she wants, it’s about giving the customers things that they wanted are relevant for them, and they’re ready, and they are also willing to pay for it. And this is why we were talking about CX focus as well. It’s not about saying yes to everything, also, as you don’t say yes to everything that your employees want, because otherwise you can go back go bankrupt as a company, you always need to be able to put it into the right balance. This way, again, being 100% customer oriented, sometimes it’s not good because you might lose the focus that you also need to fulfill with what you as a company as a brand stands for so it must fit into what you are right as a company. So So we’re really looking at so development areas exist for both if you are too low or if you’re too high. So, the optimum level is really the balance in the middle that we have for each one of the competencies. So you have so in terms of quantitative Yes, you can say there is a there is a percentage as an index that you that you have, you can be 90% You can be 70% for instance, and you have the for each one of the competencies the evolution where you stand and recommendations what you can do in terms of excellent planning, and then you as a manager can decide, well, if you want to have a coach who works with you, if you want to have this open conversation with your team and share the results with them and say, Look, for instance, the recognition to employees, because employee experience is fundamental for customer experience as well. That’s why again, you know, the, this this combo customer experience, employee experience leadership, because as an employee, I’m engaged, if I’ve, if I, if I feel valued as a person, I can contribute, I can grow as a person as a professional organization. And I have leaders who support me in this career development that I have as a person, right? So so we cannot separate these topics apart from each other. So there you have the possibility to also share it with your team and open up and look, look, this came out, this is my result. I really want to work on this. And I want to involve you in defining some action, how can how I can improve my leadership skills. I mean, this is it’s a lot about openness, and willing to change and transform.

Gregorio Uglioni 26:06
Exactly, I think two questions will follow first, the first one is, you said you you’re running this distance people are doing that, where do you see your did you find out that the biggest gaps

Silvana Buljan 26:21
there is no pattern behind going to go to you, it really depends on the person, I remember that one person who actually is a customer experience management organization. I mean, he had very, very low, very, very low results. But you know what happened in this case, and this happens a lot in companies. This person was absolute, an expert, and brilliant in all the theories around customer experience. So and understanding what customers need in terms of the customer journey, this is what the needs are so. So in terms of the doing part, excellent. So probably if he had, if he would have done the test about six talent, which we also have as four employees, he probably would have had brilliant results. But this is not what people need from a leader. Leader means you help other you coach others to get to the next level, it’s not about what you know, it’s about how you can lead and coach people in your team to get to the next level you so you need. And this is this is a gap in the organizations that we see because people are promoted because of the knowledge and their functional expertise and technical, you know, knowledge and everything. But this is not what teams need. Teams need somebody, okay? He or she should know what they’re talking about. But but the first thing is, give me freedom, Give me empowerment coach me and give me possibilities to get to where you are in terms of knowledge, but so the rules change. So that’s why it’s so important to understand that customer centric leadership, there are many competencies that also come from general leadership skills in terms of motivating employees, you don’t need to know you do not need to know if if you should measure a touchpoint experience in a transactional way, or relational world how to do the NPS or not. This is what people should do. But you as the leader, you need to really engage with them to go that way and support them in many times also, back them in terms of internal politics and companies, because there are so many around right so so this is actually the role of the leader not being the technical expert, but the people expert.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:35
Sure. And and it makes total sense that at the end, always we are always saying I for the mindset and not for the skills because you can train on the skills and then at different levels, you need to show different expertise level, more on the leadership side, if you’re speaking about leaders.

Silvana Buljan 28:53
The one more thing, one more thing that I got what I actually I just I just remembered now to what there is one interesting observation we also had, because when we compared people who work in big companies like multinational companies, also who weren’t in the stock markets and people who work in family run businesses, there was a clear difference, because because those leaders who were representing family run businesses, even if they’ve many, many employees, but still they’re their family run and not not in the stock exchange. They had higher levels of customer centered leadership competencies than those who work in the big multinationals. And this again, shows you It’s again, the deflection of the culture of the company, if my culture is the guy who sells more will always be the best and will be promoted independent of how he or she sold it. Versus Oh no, for us, it’s more important how we do it and that the customers really happy and it’s not about our sales process. It’s about making the customer happy. I mean, you see clearly differences in terms of What the course represents and the results in the leadership assessment? This was interesting to observe.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:06
Yes. And I think what you’re saying a story that I heard and I was not aware of, but now I am, I’m really thinking about it. And it makes total sense about employee experience. And in some companies, your login, it’s your name. And this is something that you remember, and it’s quite easy. In quite a lot of companies, you are a number. And then first thing that I’m doing in the morning is writing denied that very present in order to start working. And this is the first time I found out I said, Oh, but this this already started.

Silvana Buljan 30:41
Absolutely. And look, these are the small details make the difference? Exactly the small details?

Gregorio Uglioni 30:47
Exactly. And that the last question I would like to ask on this topic, is, is there really a willingness to change because you are doing the, let’s say, exams? And then there are outcomes? And then that the work starts? How are you coping with this, then change that unit to drive in these companies?

Silvana Buljan 31:10
Here, the fundamental role is the one of the of the CEO, because many times you see, so we, I’ve seen management teams, who would work many years and transforming the company towards a more customer centric culture, using data because they always ask you for data. So you need to fulfill more of the emotional part. And also the, the facts and figures part because some people just look at the facts and figures, right. So even management teams, you see those who are more emotionally driven, others who are more, you know, KPI driven. And this, this needs to be like this, because that’s why their management team and they’re diverse. So you, so you have to have these different views. But they’re the key is that at one moment when when you see that there is no progress, because as you said in the beginning, it stays nice on the PowerPoint, the CEO needs to really be very, very clear on that. And really, you know, say, now this is what are we going to do, and there is no discussion about it, because some things can’t be discussed, they just need to be implemented and be lift in if it doesn’t work you out. We’ve seen companies where we’re we’re we’re managers were then said, Look, this is our strategy. This is the way this is what we do. So you decide if you want to be part of this or not. But if you don’t want to be part of this, that’s fine. We just get to an agreement you’re out. And it’s very transparent is very clear. Because otherwise, if you have people all the time on board on many GVWR levels, who do not share this need and view of customer centricity, sooner or later, this will be boom over. So you really need to make sure that the management team needs to be aligned, fully aligned, fully aligned to what the rest of the organization.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:59
Sure, and it makes total sense. At the end, what I’m always saying is, from now, employee point of view is I’m married my wife and not my company, that’s the first and on the other side, you can look at from the business side, the business or the company didn’t manage the employee. And therefore if you don’t agree anymore, then there are opportunities to change. And and therefore you should do that. It was really an a great discussion. Now some questions to learn a bit more about you Silvana, and how you came to with this great idea and concept. The first question I would like to ask is, is there a book where you say, this is this helped me to grow? Or it’s something it’s a book that I would like to suggest to the audience?

Silvana Buljan 33:45
Yes. And it has nothing to do with customer experience.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:50
Even better,

Silvana Buljan 33:51
it’s really, I laugh. I don’t know if Chris Lowney, Heroic Leadership. I really recommend that to everybody to read. You See, I’m a personal fan of the Jesuits. See, I am, I am a believer. And if you and Chris Lowney was he actually he was Jesuits and then then then got out of the of the Jesuit community, and was a top manager in one of the big investment firms of the world. I don’t know which one it was one of the biggest. And then he wrote a book about a heroic leadership. And if you read this book, it really gives you the combination of value. What are you as a person of value? I mean, you asked me the question what your values are. So values is very important in how to understand that leadership means to serve, not to not not Not, not to give orders. Leadership is about serving others. And this view is something that that for me personally was the you know, the before and after to really understand what leadership in the future Church should be able to do for for the companies they serve and for the people they serve. So heroic leadership by Chris Lowney, this is absolute my, my recommendation.

Gregorio Uglioni 35:09
Thank you very much. And I think it’s certainly what you’re saying it’s really important to really understand what is the real role of leaders. And it’s exactly what you wanted what you said. The last question I would like to ask before sorry, the second last question I would like to ask is, if somebody would like to contact you, what’s the best way?

Silvana Buljan 35:32
Well, the exco, linked in my email address is s dot buljan at buljan partners .com. I think it’s easy to find me. For those who are really interested. I, I do have a Twitter account, but I don’t really use it that much. So I’m, I’m LinkedIn, I have no Facebook, I have no Instagram, nothing of that. So the easiest way to reach me is really LinkedIn sent me an invitation and and I usually accept the people who who contact me if I see their their professional related to Yeah, to what we stand for.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:09
Thank you. And Silvana is also extremely active on the European customer experience, organization community and then it’s quite easy to contact also. Silvana the last question, is this always the same question I am asking is Silvana golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new that you would leave to the audience.

Silvana Buljan 36:30
golden nuggets in terms of

Gregorio Uglioni 36:33
it’s the last piece of wisdom that you would like to share with your audience?

Silvana Buljan 36:38
Yes. Okay. Yeah. Love your customer more than his or her share of wallet, her wallet.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:46
Thank you very much. As usual, hi. I’m not commending Silvana Golden Nugget because it was Silvana golden nugget. The last thing I want to say is thank you very much for your time.

Silvana Buljan 36:57
Thank you, Gregorio. And I’m happy to spread the word. And yeah, be be there for you if you need any more input, because this is what we’re all here for, to really, to really make the corporate world a better world for both employees and customers. Thank you.

Gregorio Uglioni 37:13
Thank you Silvana. And also thank you very much to the European customer experience organization to making this possible. We are running a collaboration, and I have the opportunity to really interview thought leaders like Silvana in customer experience, but we saw it’s not on the customer experience. It’s about business and creating better businesses. And it’s what we want to achieve as human beings. Concluding also to the audience. Thank you very much for being here for participating to listening to this to this discussion to watching the YouTube video. It was a great pleasure. Thank you very much. Bye bye grazie mille, arrivederci.

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