Customers’ behaviours with Mary Drumond – E53 – Second Half

Release date: 20. Decemeber 2021

CX Goalkeeper with Mary Drumond SECOND HALF – E53 is about customers' behaviours and a lot more Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had a smart discussion with Mary Drumond

LinkedIn Headliner: CMO | Customer Experience and Insights | Podcast Host

I split the discussion in 2 episodes, the first one went live last week!

Link to the first episode:

In this episode:

  • How to operationalizing empathy
  • Focus on identifying impact as the frequency is relative (superb example from Mary here 🙂
  • Changing expectations are also relevant, the market is so fast (Blackberry example)
  • The purchase decisioning process is steered by
    • tangible drivers: price, quality and relationship AND
    • intangible drivers: social proof and brand identification.

Her book suggestion:

  • “Thinking fast and thinking slow” by Daniel Kahneman

Mary’s golden nugget:

“Focus on the impact & try to understand perceptions. Putting your customers at the centre of your operations always pay off!” @drumondmary on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

How to contact Mary:

Mary’s podcast:

Thank you, Mary!

Mentioned in the discussion with Mary: Colin Shaw, Shep Hyken, James Dodkins, GaryVee, Ian Golding

And the book: Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion, Robert B. Cialdini

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast #empathy #feedback


Gregorio Uglioni 0:01
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast, your host, Gregorio Uglioni, will have small discussion with expert, thought leader, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership IOP will enjoy the next episode.

And also preparing for the next question the next point to discuss. And I really like how you explain how you explained that we discussed also in the pre recording? How is it possible to operationalize this empathy that it’s required for these interactions with the customer? What are your thoughts on that?

Mary Drumond 0:44
So I mean, you, you nailed it right there. When you’ve got a small company, and you’ve got an owner that’s directly involved, you can have the conversations, when you have a conversation, you can look a person in the eye, you can form that emotional one on one connection, you can understand the pains, the difficulties, the struggles, you can know everything about that customer, and tailor your offering to provide them with the solution that they need. Right? But how do you scale that connection, you can’t do it through a questionnaire because it’s impersonal. It it circulates around the customer, but not directly at what they need. And the way to do that truly is through technology. So the way we found to create a technology that helps us scale empathy, is by allowing the customer to have a voice. So when I talk a voice of customer, I am speaking of 100%, raw voice of customer, what we created was the machine Lucy, and Lucy is able to identify impact. And impact is maybe one of the most important things to look at when it comes to customer behavior.

Because frequency isactually relative, it’s it’s it doesn’t always mean that just because someone complains about something frequently does not mean that they are going to leave you because of that. And a story that I tell all the time. And I’m sure you’ve heard before, to explain the difference between frequency and impact is a personal story about the early days of my marriage, when my husband took showers and threw the wet towel on the bed. And he always threw it on my side of the bed. And it was terrible, because it’s soaked through the layers. And then when I got in bed at night, my feet were like this wet, damp, horrible mess. And it drove me crazy. And I complained every single day to a point where, you know, I’m sure there were occasions where I was shouting at him.

You know, but but now the truth is that I, I was never going to leave my husband or end my marriage over a wet towel. Because even though it was a really frequent complaint, a really frequent complaint, the impact wasn’t strong enough to motivate me to walk away. Right now. If on one occasion, I had gone home early and found him in bed with a babysitter. I mean, that would have been the end no discussion only once. But I wouldn’t even need a repeat offender just once. That would be enough, right? Because that impact was absolutely enough to move me with all the effort and all the challenges and all the difficulties to cancel my contract, let’s say. And with customers, it’s exactly the same thing. Maybe not with a wet towel. But with something else. You know, there’s a really good example that is an example from worth X, have a company that did magazine subscriptions. And these magazine subscriptions. One of the their highest frequency was that the magazine didn’t show up on time at their door, and that it showed up in the newsstand before showing up in people’s homes. And this was like kind of a investigative journalism magazine. So they were frustrated that even though they were subscribers, they were finding out a big about the big political scandals and issues after the rest of the market. And that was their number one complaint in their call centers. It was the number one complaint in customer service. So the company had actually decided to invest a lot of money in in in a logistics overhaul to make sure the magazine got there earlier. But when were these came in, and were able to get to what was truly impacting customers decisions. The complaint that in fact, was driving people to churn was in seventh place in the list of complaints. So if you’re an executive and you have to make a strategic decision about where you’re going to spend your money Are you going to just spend it on complaint number one or number seven? Number one, that’s what everybody would do. But in fact, investing in number one would make absolutely no difference in churn. Because the people that were complaining about the magazine arriving late, did not turn. They were unhappy. And it definitely needed to be addressed eventually, but it wasn’t enough to make them cancel. Now, number seven, was a financial dispute where they had initially agreed to a certain amount, but they were being overcharged on their credit card every month. Now, upon investigation, the company realized that the the organization that to call it to care of us selling these subscriptions, wasn’t training their representatives properly. And they were training the representatives with the wrong amount. That was fixed with almost no investment, virtually no investment, it was simply, hey, you guys are saying the wrong amount, we’re actually charging x naught z. Problem solved. Now, if they didn’t listen to their customers, and find out, not what their most frequent complaint was, but what their most serious complaint was, what was truly causing them pain, they would have never known. And they would have spent millions of dollars, overhauling the logistics, the logistics for an entire region. And ultimately, they wouldn’t have decreased churn at all. You know. So impact is the most important thing to look at when you’re considering customer feedback. And Lucy is able to do this, that’s one of the most powerful things about Lucy is this ability to determine impact. Now, she does this through all this really cool math stuff, that if this were an AI podcast, we could definitely talk about. But today, I’m gonna have to ask you to trust me, let’s just hit the light switch instead of trying to understand the electrical grid and everything that goes into it. That yeah, so it, it provides impact. And it also provides a series of other really important things for decision makers and organizations to keep in mind, for instance, changing expectations. That’s something that’s rarely approached, and is rarely discussed. When it comes to customer experience. I think I’m like, the lone voice in the wilderness, talking about changing expectations. I haven’t heard anybody else preach about this. And it’s, it’s the fact that this market is so fast. It’s so fast. It’s crazy. There’s the more companies you have, they’re developing amazing technology and putting this out in the market. Every time innovation comes out, it doesn’t matter what field it’s in, it affects the perceptions of other industries. So you know, Shep Hyken, always give this example, that sometimes a hospital administrator was affected with expectations because of Amazon Prime. And he believed that his giant manufacturer should be able to prompt him when an order was on its way, because if Amazon can do it, why can’t they? So you know, Amazon is in no way competing with medical equipment, but the expectations still exists. And these expectations are what caused frustration if they’re not accomplished. So if a customer is expecting something from you, as an organization, and you fail to accomplish this, and you create an expectation gap, that frustration leads to resentment, and that resentment leads to anger and anger leads to the dark side and Star Wars etc. Ultimately turn, right. So we have to keep track of ever changing expectations. And the only way to do this is by asking specific questions that have an entire scientific methodology behind it of tracking where the customers are looking when they’re scoping out the market, and which sort of threat potential rivals in your industry are creating that you don’t have. So, you know, back to the general idea of BlackBerry that we’ve discussed so many times, Blackberry lost market to Apple, not because their product wasn’t good, not because their customers weren’t satisfied, not because they didn’t recommend it enough. I speak firsthand, when I talk about recommending Blackberry. I was a huge BlackBerry fan. But it was because customers expectations changed and blackberry didn’t keep up. Apple saw which direction customers were headed with their expectations and innovation and technology. And it was their blog very sadly was not and they lost the end Tire market because of it, you know. So keeping an eye on this changing expectations is definitely crucial as well.

Gregorio Uglioni 10:06
It makes total sense. Also, in your last episode about patient experience, you are doing also this example, that the comparison is not in the same industry, but it’s also outside of the industry. A customer cannot wait 14 minutes in their waiting room to get to the doctor, because then he gets scared, angry and an end. And the next time is not coming back. And therefore it’s impossible to make that. And basically, I think you spoke about expectation, looking at that from another angle is how is Mary taking decisions buying decision? And then I know, almost shouldn’t ask two questions, but I am sure you will elaborate on that. How are you taking decisions to buy something a product or a service? And are our customers then taking these decisions?

Mary Drumond 11:01
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, because working in customer experience has absolutely shaped the way that I make decisions. And working as a marketer has done that even more. Right? So when I’m looking at it purchase, I’m first weighing out how much of this is marketing? How much of this is a trap? What’s the true offering? What’s the true value that this brand is providing me with, right? But when it comes down to human behavior, and what drives our perceptions of value, there are a couple of things that we’ve identified. As drivers of perception, we call them perception drivers, and they are the true motivators of decisions. So as humans walking through life, we are constantly doing a cost benefit analysis of everything that we do, right? From the time that we wake up in the morning to whether we’re going to hit the gym or not, whether we’re going to have the salad or the steak for lunch, whether we’re going to put an extra effort in at work today or tomorrow, all of these decisions are actually calculated by our brain. And the way that we make that is, is it worth it? So is it worth it for me to sleep an extra five minutes and risk being late to work? Where do my values lie? What’s most important to me, and that’s how we make decisions. So when it comes to specifically purchase decisions, most people think that price is what comes to mind. But price is a single facet. Because price is always relative to begin with, right? You can’t compare a Toyota Corolla with a Ferrari. Because, first of all, I’m pretty sure that the Toyota Corolla is expensive for a lot of people, right? And Ferrari is unattainable for most people, but it is worth it to a certain group of individuals, right? So price is always relative. And it’s always compared with the market. So what’s the market offering, versus what this offer gives me a value, but quality is also relative. So it all depends on what you need and why. So let’s say for example, I want to buy some earrings, right? Am I looking for a pair of earrings that I want to last a lifetime and eventually want to pass on to my daughter on her wedding day,

I’m going to try to look for something that’s a little bit better quality. But if I’m looking for earrings to compose my Halloween costume for Halloween 2021 I’m gonna use it once. I don’t care. I don’t care what the quality is, it just has to last me till the end of the evening that I’m done. So quality is also relative. And it’s also depending on multiple factors. Now, relationship is another driver that we take into consideration, especially when we’re buying services, or when it’s a b2b relationship. Right. So how responsive is this company going to be? How quickly are they going to solve a problem or a question? How’s the onboarding? Is their service consistent? Is their call center well prepared? Do they have available technicians when I need? What’s it like to walk into their stores? Do I feel welcome? Do I feel accommodated? Is the staff well trained? So relationship is something that we definitely take into consideration when it comes to the hospitality industry. That’s probably one of the strongest points, right? You can go to a restaurant that maybe didn’t surprise you with the quality of the food, but you will never return to a restaurant where you were treated poorly by the server. Right so so really lationship ends up being such a strong pointer. Now, these are all tangible perceptions. There are also intangible perceptions that we can’t necessarily nail down. So specifically. And these things are elements that have more to do with psychology, like social proof. And social proof is when we make decisions based on how others would perceive us, or we follow other people’s behavior in an attempt to be validated. Right now, this was a concept that Robert C Aldini, I believe his name is put in his in his book Influence a couple years ago, and the the strength of social proof, especially in the world that we live in today. And how we are constantly bombarded with social media and with the people around us, it actually plays a really strong part in what we choose to buy or not. And then the other intangible decision drivers is brand identification, how much we feel the brand we’re doing business with, aligns with our internal values. So I wouldn’t want to do business with a brand that I think is racist, or a brand that I think is careless with the environment. Right and worth X with Lucy has a way of measuring all of these decision drivers, and understanding which one’s way heaviest for specific customers and specific situations. So it does provide a pretty clear idea of the exact motivators of your customers decisions.

Gregorio Uglioni 16:31
And it makes total sense, based on your last example, people are willing, I’m coming from Switzerland, therefore, I need to use this example, are willing to pay more for chocolate, because it’s created in a sustainable way. And then you can follow from where the cocoa is coming and all this stuff. And you don’t focus on the price. But you focus more about these certificates. That’s proof where it’s coming from and and what what you said also, last example to to mention, to confirm what you’re saying, the social proof, I think GaryVee, in each second speech, that is, his giving is always says I don’t care about these big brands. I don’t need Rolex to show that I achieve something because I don’t need the social proof because I don’t care. And and therefore it totally, totally make makes sense. Perhaps one question on the last questions or content wise. Let’s say for example, James Dodkins is saying, The first impression is the most important one, or even before they start interacting or having interaction with a company, you already have an impression of this company, called inshore speak quite a lot about the pick and roll in each episode of his of his, this podcast is making one example about it. For you what is one extremely important behavior behavior of customer that we need to take into consideration while we want to create experiences?

Mary Drumond 18:07
Well, from my angle, I’m always going to first apply it to those five decision drivers, right to understand. So the peak end rule, for instance, that would apply directly to the relationship driver, and how customers perceive the relationship that they have. So if I’m in a business where relationship really matters to customers, then I’m definitely going to focus on getting that relationship, right. But if I’m in an industry, where what matters to customers is priced, period, then to be honest, maybe spending a lot of time crafting experiences isn’t the best use of your money. I’m sure that eventually if you have the time and the resources to do so, then you should definitely invest. But everybody knows that a leader needs to make the decisions that are going to impact the bottom line of the organization. If your company isn’t profitable, then you’re not going to have a company at all. And then there’s going to be no decisions or experiences left to design in the first place. Right. So first, understanding what motivates your customers decisions and then focusing on the driver that has the strongest potential of causing buying and rebuying decisions and avoiding churn. Now, we are going to look at relationship and I really love focusing on hospitality when it comes to relationship, then we can definitely apply these concepts. Now these concepts of behavior psychology, where you can design experiences in your processes to make sure you compensate for eventual errors is extremely important. And for me, as a behavior official Shinato just so interesting. And the idea of the peak end rule for the people who don’t know, is that our memory doesn’t work, how we think it does, our brain eliminates 90% of everything that we live through simply because there isn’t enough space in the harddrive. Right? So we we remember very specific things, we remember how we feel. That’s a really important thing. But we remember how we feel during peaks of emotion. So if you have a normal day in someone’s life that’s somewhat stable with small ups and downs. But then you have an occurrence that either peaks upward or downward, that causes an intense feeling, and feelings create memories. So if you think of that, a Pixar movie Inside Out, inside out, it’s inside out, right? That’s a fascinating way to describe how memories are created, how trauma is created. And it’s it’s through these peaks. It’s through these high intensity moments where we create almost a photographic memory of that moment. And that’s what sticks with us. And ultimately, scientists, like Daniel Kahneman, the one thing that he discovered is that other than peeks, the other thing that our brain remembers, is the end. Because our memory has no perception of time, which is really weird. If you think about it, we don’t actually remember periods of time, our memory of a situation, whether it’s two weeks or three months, or one day, our brain remembers it exactly the same. So if you’re able to consolidate an experience with something positive, that can shape the memory of the experience, so even if your customer had a difficult situation, or something in the experience that impacted them negatively, and created negative association with your brand, you can fix that you can hack that by changing the end, and making sure that the end is warm and fuzzy and magical. And that’s what they’re going to take away from the experience. So I would definitely agree with what Collin Shaw preaches, which is make sure the ending is special. And you can hack your way into memorability with your customers.

Gregorio Uglioni 22:21
Thank you very much. And I think we are calling into my next we tried to make make it memorable for you, but also for the listeners. And I think exactly what you’re saying Ian Golding is also saying, People customer remember good experiences and bad experiences and nothing in between… And I never, let’s finish with the peek and the great to the last few questions, I would like to ask you because I value your time. And I know that we are running out of time. Is there a book that you say this is something that I suggest to the audience to read. And I know it’s quite difficult for you because you are reading a lot.

Mary Drumond 23:01
I do read a lot. And part of my job as a podcaster is to read the books of all of the guests that come on the show. And I’ve been lucky enough to read a lot of amazing material. But coincidentally, the book that I would recommend to anyone, whether you’re in customer experience, or any other industry is Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman, which is the book that explains the concepts behind the peak end rule. Because not only does it focus on how interesting memory is, it also focuses on biases and how biases affect our lives. And one of the most interesting things he says is that even though we’re conscious of a bias, it doesn’t make us immune to it. So being conscious that we have a bias. And he goes into detail with I think, eight biases in his book. So let’s say unconscious bias, which is something that has been really popularly discussed of late with issues of racism and inequality, when we have a bias towards the situation, that’s only the first step. Because we’re still going to default to that behavior. Because it’s what we’re used to is what we know, if you want to override that bias and that behavior, then it takes a lot of intentionality. And it takes very careful planning of steps in order to manually correct what your brain does automatically. It’s a fascinating book, my personal favorite, and I would recommend it to anyone out there who’s interested in understanding what motivates people to make decisions.

Gregorio Uglioni 24:41
Thank you very much, Mary. And this is my really last question is Mary golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you that you would leave to the audience.

Mary Drumond 24:56
Focus on impact and how the experiences that you’re creating for your customers or affecting their perception of worth, if a customer decides that you’re worth it, that means they’ve taken into consideration all of the surrounding factors like price like quality, like relationship. And ultimately, they’ve concluded that what you are providing in your offer is worth the time, the effort, the money they’ll have to put in in order to gain that experience. So don’t forget to look at the impact. Don’t forget to understand perceptions. And don’t forget that putting your customer at the center of your operation always pays off.

Gregorio Uglioni 25:38
Thank you very much, Mary. And as usual, I’m not commenting the Golden Nugget because this was Mary’s golden nugget. The only thing I can say. Thank you very much for your time. It was an outstanding discussion.

Mary Drumond 25:50
Thank you for the opportunity.

Gregorio Uglioni 25:53
And also to the audience. It was really a great pleasure to have Mary from war fix on this on this show. I hope that you enjoyed this discussion as much as I did. Thank you very much. Grazie mille, arrivederci.

If enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you!

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