Recording date: 14. February 2021
CX Goalkeeper with Nate Brown – S1E9 is about the learning experience as an enabler to make people’s life better – Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper
The CX Goalkeeper had a smart discussion with Nate Brown
LinkedIn Headline: Senior Director of CX at Arise, Co-Founder of CX Accelerator
He defines himself as a student of Customer Experience. His vision is to help organization and people to reduce stress and friction and making people life better.
Nate Brown speaks about “learning” as a key component of the employee experience:
Knowledge is the lifeblood of CX and people are wasting time searching for answers. Therefore, Nate point out that it is important to create a culture where learning is an everyday ritual. There are different ways to learn, to make learning effective and to upskill agents.
Also, in this case it’s about the LEARNING EXPERIENCE
The framework is based on following pillars:
- Learning Culture
- Strategic Alignment
- Training Content
- Supporting Technology
- People and Processes
If you want to contact Nate:
Nate’s golden nugget:
“BE LEARNING A LOT” @CustomerIsFirst on the CX Goalkeeper PodcastTweet
“Learning is an everyday ritual” @customerisfirst on the CX Goalkeeper PodcastTweet
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Gregorio Uglioni 0:03
Ladies and gentlemen, very welcome. Today, I am really excited. I have Nate Brown here with me. He is a thought leader in customer experience. I was following him since years in LinkedIn, I had a chance to meet him at the international customer experience awards. And now a here and he is real, real with us, here
Nate Brown 0:24
we are. Well, good morning. Thank you so much. Gregorio. Thank you, everybody, for having me thrilled to be here.
Gregorio Uglioni 0:30
Thank you very much, Nate. I think the best way if you are here, it’s really to ask you questions, and then please give us your science, your thought about what you’re doing. But first of all, could you please introduce yourself?
Nate Brown 0:43
Sure. So my name is Nate Brown, I’m a student of customer experience, I just love this topic. I just think it’s the best way to help organizations and to help people. As far as reducing the stress and friction that is out there it is, making people’s lives better and easier through this work, I just think is awesome. And it is the way that we collect customer loyalty in the organization. So I started in customer service, and just became aware of this, this holistic approach to CX, I was like, wow, I want to learn so I just started consuming books and material on this and learning from from influencers that were out there and, and just have enjoyed creating my own methodology around this and serving inside of officium labs, as well as creating CX accelerator, which is a virtual community, for CX professionals. And inside of officium, I get to lead our experience matters division, which is doing all kinds of things to help to create incredible customer experiences, including CX in a box, and different trainings and audits that we can do. So it’s been an awesome year.
Gregorio Uglioni 1:46
Thank you very much, Nate. And it’s really a great pleasure not only for me, but for the audience to having you with us. If you are a student of customer experience, then let’s say I am a baby, and I’m trying to learn speaking. Thank you very much. And let’s go really to the topic, the last time we chat with a private discussion about learning. And you showed me really a great and interesting framework about learning. Could you please explain that I level and then we will deep dive on this topic?
Nate Brown 2:22
Yeah, I think that I mean, especially as we think about customer service, knowledge is the lifeblood of a customer service environment. But even inside of the larger organization, our ability to curate and to manage intelligence inside of the organization, that’s going to determine our ability to serve customers. Well, there’s some great statistics that are out there from Jeetu crowd and eight by eight, indicating that people spend a tremendous amount of time wasted time, every day searching for answers that are trapped inside of individual people, because it hasn’t properly been shared inside of a centralized management of process of knowledge. So that the more that we can be generous with the things that we’re learning that we can be learning from these customer interactions, it powers intelligence around AI in our self service capabilities, as well as making everybody else in the organization smarter and more capable of facilitating quick and easy resolutions. So that the training part is just a huge aspect of that. And I’ve been helping to develop some different training programs inside of our customers inside of a phishing labs, and have learned a lot on this topic over the course of the year, just in terms of getting people excited about learning and trying to create a culture in which learning is an everyday thing. And it happens in a variety of ways. You’ve got your quick hit your moment of need type of learning that you’re queuing up in the form of mini modules, or even smaller than that just quick bite sized learnings. Maybe even doing like a short, weekly podcast of here’s, here’s the top five things you need to know this week that are customer facing issues, this is going to keep you in the know and able to resolve things quickly. And being able to create those those miniaturized forms of learning. But then also, you know, as things culminate, as trends are formed, creating really good really engaging learning material around that using the ADDIE model that will help people to be able to onboard faster and to be able to resolve more effectively. But then even beyond that, just in terms of our day to day or job based training, thinking about how can we upskill these agents, how can we upskill the organization in the area of CX and in other areas too, and just in terms of getting people excited about their own abilities, increasing their own potential rising because they’re learning every day, doing book clubs, things like that. That’s something that I’ve been doing with a team right now. Going through fusion going through radical candor. We have one inside of a fishing that we’re doing on the effortless experience, and actually giving others the opportunity to equip in to train each other. That peer to peer learning aspect is so big. And I think a lot of organizations miss out on that, where they try and create these top down training models all the time, creating an environment in which people can learn from one another is a very edifying and very encouraging experience. And it’s something that needs to be built in intentionally.
Gregorio Uglioni 5:31
I fully agree with you. And and I think that’s what I really like in our customer experience community, people willing to share and sharing No, and these are really great insights. And I think I can quote, somebody I earned in the last in the last, in one of the last webinar, I looked at, you see the CFO asking, how much do we spend to train people if then these people are leaving, because today people are leaving? And one guy said, yes, it costs quite a lot. But think about not training people not giving something to them to people if they would stay the complete life with us.
Nate Brown 6:11
Yeah, that’s a that’s a mic drop moment for for a training professional, for sure. I just feel like that there’s, there’s a new term that is out there that I’m hearing more and more, it’s the learning experience. And in the fact that we’re bringing experience design into every area of the business, including training, and that we’re acknowledging that this is an experience that we’re creating. I just think it’s awesome.
Gregorio Uglioni 6:33
Yeah, I fully agree. And there are, again, quite a lot of great examples. Also, we’re using gamification, to learn something, if you get your points, you can then buy something or something like that, it’s helping another way to, to learn and to come through this process. Because at the end, we always need to learn we want to learn most of the people are keen to learn new things. And and therefore, more than more than more than happy to to deep dive. I think the first point you mentioned in the framework was learning culture. And I really like to learn, therefore, I’m doing these webcasts, these discussions and reading books, I saw the fusion book that that something on my to do list that I want to read, you spoke about the effortless cast, the light, therefore, the less experienced this is from Matrix and one great book that changed the way I was thinking about effort and and creating one moment. Could you please elaborate a bit about his learning culture at first point?
Nate Brown 7:35
Yeah, for sure. So the the idea of learning culture, and if you look up learning culture inside of different organizations, you’ll actually see some pillars that are represented in terms of how do we want people to engage with us as a learner? What is it about this learning experience that’s going to be unique and distinctive to us. And as an example, some some organizations would say, we want people to learn a little bit every day, we want every day to represent a new learning opportunity for you. Others might have more of a lifetime learner type of culture where we want to be creating building blocks, big, big foundational building blocks on which we’re establishing and bring somebody from, from a new employee inside of the organization, to this experienced career professional, that’s going to have a great deal of loyalty back to the organization, and capabilities as well. Because of the skills that they’ve earned. You might have more of a culture of we want to be knowledge experts, we want to be laser focused on a particular area, UL an organization I served inside of inside of their mission inside of their learning culture that it was all about, we want to be the best, the most knowledgeable, the highest quality thought leaders in the area of safety science. Like in this area, we want to be well known as the best and smartest. And they would equip people to be that way they would equip them with the resources and the different learning opportunities inside of UL, their GLP program and other things that were just incredible in terms of helping people to grow in that way. So whether it’s ultra focused on a particular niche, or whether it’s just learning something new every day, or becoming this established professional, and focused on the individual and their growth path. Having some some concept of your learning culture in those pillars is a really good and health healthy thing.
Gregorio Uglioni 9:32
Um, I think that’s that’s really important and really interesting. Also having these these different ideas and having a vision and triangle to to achieve that enabling and empowering people then to learn something, perhaps a side question. You mentioned three different three different options. What are you following? Personally, from your point of view, you want to learn something every day or you want to be super focused? What’s your strategy, your personal mission?
Nate Brown 10:00
I appreciate that right now. I mean, just for my own mental health, you know, I’ve got a great executive coach, Steve gouttes. Lawyer. And he’s challenged me to just read something good and encouraging every day, the first part of my day, this morning, I was reading a book called raising chickens. But, but I’ve been mostly in the morning reading a book called tribal leadership. And Jerry leisure, our CEO had me reading the advantage by Patrick Lencioni. And these are things that are they’re not too heavy, but they’re really good solid things that are just encouraging for me and get me on a good foundation emotionally on which to stand the rest of my day. So I think that’s just just in terms of that learning every day type of thing. That is that is something that I’m doing, it could be professional, it could be more personal, just trying to read a little bit every morning. But then to I am becoming micro focused in the area of CX, specifically, in the area of just like encouraging change management and encouraging a great employee experience inside of organizations to create the foundation for great CX. I want that to be like my legacy in this area, is just equipping CX leaders for to stand the test of time. And to be able to do this work really well for the long term. So I’m trying to think through what that what the ramification Is that Is that for me, like how can I quit myself, to be able to learn more, and then give more back in that area.
Gregorio Uglioni 11:34
And you are really linking what you’re doing privately with what you’re explaining in business, because you define now your vision, and your defining all to the step to achieve this vision. One, one question that I was wondering, you spoke about reading. It’s also about podcasts, listening or watching webinars, what’s your preferred way to learn,
Nate Brown 11:56
I like to read. For me, I do a lot of audible books. And I do just read hardcopy books, I do like having just a good solid hardcopy, because I take a lot of notes inside of the book, I go through and I’ve got one master document of all these different books combined. And in the elements that I want to make sure that I remember because they really stand out to me. So having that ability to to go through in my own time, inside of a book and digest that and think through it and take notes on that is really good and important. I do like some podcasts that are out there. But I’ve especially being that I’m not commuting into the office anymore. It is it is hard for me to take the time to listen to some of those. When I’m out taking a walk. I’ll listen to some some guilty science fiction some guilty pleasure type reading right now I’m doing Ready Player to that that’s more what I consume audibly is a science fiction.
Gregorio Uglioni 12:59
That’s nice. Everybody has different hobbies. And I think it’s important to like the the private life with business life. And you you need to do the stuff that you really like. Thank you very much. The next topic we discussed last time, after the culture was the strategic alignment within the company. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?
Nate Brown 13:18
Yeah, I think one of my favorite authors on this topic is definitely Jeanne bliss. And she talks about the importance of creating your your CX change coalition how however, that’s turned, but a group of cross functional leaders that are serving together, that are very much aligned, in terms of CX is important one. But then here’s how we actually do it together to everybody likes to say that CX is important. Getting strategic alignment on how it’s done, both from an employee and a customer experience standpoint, that’s something most organizations wouldn’t be able to sit and tell you. Yeah, this is this is our defined strategy around CX, that all of our different leaders inside of the organization, they know this, they’re bought in, they’re participating in these levels. And that’s what you’ve got to get to and, and one of the things she talks about is identifying the power core, that power core is going to make or break your ability to create a compelling, a good change coalition that’s going to be able to get the momentum required to make a difference inside of the organization. So the power core is wherever the money is being spent the future initiatives of the business, they’re being looked into that division to be executed upon. And a lot of times it’ll be like it because they control the data science projects, the machine learning projects. A lot of times it might be sales let’s acquire let’s acquire let’s acquire, let’s figure out what the right go to market strategy is to get more business. We got to bring CX into whatever it is whatever it is that the power core is, we have to offer CX is a gift to them, and help them to realize, wow, if we do this, we will be more successful in terms of sales, your ability to acquire is based on your current reputation with your existing customers. I mean that that is your ability to acquire. So if it’s it, your digital transformation initiative, the success of that is going to be dependent on your ability to bring good CX principles into that. I mean, you can’t dx, you know, the the digital experience, it is the experience on digital channels for your employees and customers. You can’t do that in a silo without good CX principles. So whatever your power core is, when we bring cx to them, the CX initiative will be more successful, and they will be more successful.
Gregorio Uglioni 15:50
I like very much what you’re saying and not always speaking about customer experience, but also employee experience, have done most of the companies and digitalising digitizing only the piece that the customer sees, and in the background, you have old fashioned system, not working properly. And then employees F quite a lot of problem and issue to solving or servicing the customer. And therefore I think that’s that’s, that’s really nice. Based on the fact that you mentioned Jane bliss, I think we were speaking about Chief Customer Officer, the book. And that’s nice. Sorry, I was traveling from Zurich, to Milan, Italy, and with the train, and I started reading the book in Zurich. And then the train stopped. He said, Oh, that’s why are they stopping? And then I saw Oh, I already read 200 pages, we are in Milan. So incredible. It was really a great book, a lot of insights. And as you’re saying, I like also to touch them. I did quite, I wrote quite a lot of notes. This was an incredible book. And that’s really the only one that I read from the start to the finish in one day, in one days or one travel to Milan it was it was incredible. It is they after the strategic alignment, it’s clearly important. It’s also the content of the learning. That was the third pillar that you mentioned.
Nate Brown 17:16
Yeah, I mean, it’s going back to the idea of training. And I deviated on that, that second one around alignment just to think about greater CX, even in the even beyond the training aspect. But thinking on that third pillar in training, we want to make sure that the material is not just compliance based training, which is what people are used to, you know, we have this incredible tool around online training, people being able to consume just about any type of media anywhere. And yet what we’ve created in corporate land, is this just incredibly boring, incredibly watered down, just cover your butt company type of training, where it’s not at all designed to actually help the employee to learn and to grow and to be excited on the topic of learning. So whatever your learning culture is that you’ve defined, and you’re thinking about, we want people to be learning everyday, we want them to be excited about their growth path, does your content actually reflect that? Or did you buy something off the shelf, that is literally just meant to be compliance based training, and there’s gonna have to be a little bit of that, you know, we all live in an environment where so we got to check some boxes with the training program, that’s okay. That should be like 10 to 20% of it. Whereas usually, that’s like 80 to 90% of it. What that other 80 to 90% should be is exciting material that is going to engage that’s going to help it’s going to grow the person and that maybe they had a hand in creating, taking the the thought leaders inside of your organizations at all levels, and allowing them to engage be a part of that material creation. And take practice in that peer to peer learning concept, doing hybrid training, where it’s not just online, you create many cohorts of people with similar learning objectives. You rally them together on a path where they get to graduate with one another. Not only do you get the incredible content, online and offline, but you have the the network that you’ve created within this cohort of people. And that ends up being the most powerful aspect of the training program for them is the relationships that they built. So content can take a lot of forms. But we want to make sure that we’re aligning the content with our learning culture that we’re looking to create
Gregorio Uglioni 19:35
clearer and it’s also important to understand who are the thought leader in different topics and then try to create relationship and to get the knowledge and the new oil and information. There is well a very well known company in Switzerland prop not not in in US star mind and exactly what they are saying is their view is there are plenty of experts that know stuff important is to identify who is the expert for the topic I’m looking for, and then trying to connect to him and to get the knowledge and information. And I think this is the basis of what you are saying.
Nate Brown 20:12
Absolutely. Yeah. And that relationship context in which we’re getting to get to know a person who’s identified as a subject matter expert, as well as interface with the the content that brings both of them, it elevates both of them to a more exciting place. So I think it’s great. When we bring people into the mix, we bring that human element into the training program, it it makes it exciting for everyone.
Gregorio Uglioni 20:39
At the end, on one side, or on the other side, on the side of the company, or the of the customer, there are humans, and there are humans, and at the end, it’s always a human to human relationship. And what you’re saying it’s it’s extremely important. After speaking about the content, let’s talk about the technology around that. You spoke about machine learning artificial intelligence, AI and data and so on. What’s your view on that?
Nate Brown 21:06
Yeah, in terms of the the training aspect, or larger CX
Gregorio Uglioni 21:10
in training aspect, please.
Nate Brown 21:13
Yeah, so you do, you do got to have a great learning management system, that’s going to be the foundation of it, that’s kind of like the CRM, customer relationship manager of the training aspect, you got to have that LMS learning management system. But then looking outside and beyond of that, we want to make sure that we have opportunities to engage with our mobile devices a lot in terms of quick hit types of training, having good ability to do like push notifications of, oh, you know, here’s, here’s something that just got pushed out. That’s something I should know right now, in terms of as I interface with customers, and getting that push notification onto your phone, the gamified elements that are out there with with different and not and not having to be ultra competitive either. Having having the collaborative idea of of a cohort, a gamified cohort, or you’re working to achieve objectives together. I think you had the example of the zombie outbreak challenge listed. That’s something that we did inside of officium, I wouldn’t necessarily call it Training. But through our employee voice program, we learned, hey, people want to do even more in the area of wellness. And so what we did is we incorporated an app, where we were doing a zombie challenge together, and overcoming these obstacles in the form of killing zombies and getting to the safe house. And, you know, it was something where we got people into a positive frame of mind, we got their steps going, we got their blood flowing, that put them in a place where they could learn, they could serve customers better. So leveraging whatever technology they like, and that they have access to on a regular basis, I either phone probably, and incorporating that into the training technology is a great thing. But I mean, most most importantly, it’s having a really good LMS that is well organized, where whatever it is that they want to learn in, they can come they can self service, in terms of being able to enter into that learning path, and be able to to grow on their own time on their own path in that way and have that great content available for them.
Gregorio Uglioni 23:21
Thank you, Nate, you killed and they use the verb killed. My next question, because I wanted to ask audit when the zombie challenge, but you said it’s not about winning. And therefore I changed my question about how many zombies Did you killed?
Nate Brown 23:36
Oh, yeah, I killed probably a good 150 Zombies in my last zombie challenge. I was I was out there power step and all day trying to kill zombies.
Gregorio Uglioni 23:47
Very nice. Thank you. And let’s close the loop around this learning framework that you are explaining the last piece. It’s about people and processes. Can you please double click on this topic?
Nate Brown 24:01
Yeah, I think the important thing here is is that your leaders are in a state of mind where they’re continually improving and developing. It’s really easy to stand up a good training program, and then walk away from it like you like you got to a finish line. And that’s something that we do in CX two accidentally, I love the John coder model, how he talks about do not celebrate victory too early. Because it takes the wind out of everybody’s sails. And they’re like, Well, I guess we already conquered this obstacle, I’m just going to go back to, to whatever I was doing before. I mean, this is something that we want to embed in the culture to where it’s an ongoing thing. So you always got to be thinking of new creative ways to bring the training to your audience in a way that’s going to engage them. As an example. We had done. This global innovation group inside of one organization gig, we call it gig. And it was bringing people together in these little cohorts. We gave them He acts employee experience data, CX data and said, We want you to focus on a challenge. And we gave them some training around unique problem solving and CX principles. And then we actually gave them the responsibility of come up with a solution to this challenge, a way that we can enhance the experience here. And we created a little shark tank of different leaders in different areas of the company. And they got to ordain or essentially, endorse the solution that was being put in front of them and say, I’m going to help you to execute on the solution that you created, or I’m going to, I’m going to help you to enhance this solution to where it will be even better. And it was just an awesome thing. It was it was creative, it was engaging for the employees that participated, we came up with some great solutions to some long standing problems that were out there. So I mean, aligning your people, and you’re in the strategy have this and breathing life into it on a regular basis, that’s really going to help it to not become just a program, and not just something that you rolled out and you did it, and now it’s just going to slowly die and people are going to get bored of it, you’ve got to keep that investment happening. From from a strategic standpoint, from a leadership standpoint, if you want that learning culture to continue to grow.
Gregorio Uglioni 26:19
If I understand well, it’s not any any initiative or program or a project, but it’s change management and on the long term, and you will see the results at the end, or let’s say after the the after, sometimes, if we speak about one example, soccer, the one playing with with the feet, perhaps not very well known in US button. It’s it’s like if you would win three zero after the halftime and you start celebrating No, because you have to second half time, and you need to focus and to say play and Continue playing until the end. And afterwards, you can celebrate and win for sure you can celebrate milestones that you achieve. But let’s focus on the target what really what you really want to achieve.
Nate Brown 27:07
Yeah, it’s easy to kick it into cruise control. Even as a CX leader, if we had a great quarter where NPS is high, or we had some kind of win, like, oh, you know, this is working. I’m just gonna start to coast. But the customer is evolving too quickly, the business is changing too quickly. We have to be vigilant to resist that inertia. And to keep the intensity up, like that second half of a soccer game. There’s no winning, there’s no winning this game you always are playing you’re always in the spotlight. And and then having that energy, there’s is critical.
Gregorio Uglioni 27:46
Clear and and I think let’s call the last goal with you. I want to learn a bit more about Nate yourself. We already spoke about the COVID situation. How are you trying to balance your work life balance, or let’s say life work balance because I like more to speak about what people are doing during their life and what you’re doing?
Nate Brown 28:11
Yeah, so I’ve got a couple a couple kiddos. I’ve got a 12 year old and a nine year old daughter. And we were kind of wrestling for a while prior to COVID. As a family, you’re just being a little bit unfulfilled I guess it was, am I my kids wanted to have more more animals, more experiences on on some kind of property that we owned. And my wife was feeling the same way. And I was wanting to do more travel and do more experiences outside of the home as a family. And we especially with with COVID We kind of came to a place in my wife actually use the term homesteading, which I had not really heard before at least not heard in a way where it applied to me was like, you know, we can create something really good and special here as a family, our own space, where we get to live out some of these mini dreams that we have. And so we bought four acres, and a little town called Murphysboro, Tennessee, which is just south of Nashville. And we bought chickens. And we got ourselves a mini golden doodle dog. And I’ve built a disc golf course back here and this huge fire ring. And we’ve just really been invested in this little plot of land and investing in each other with the level of intentionality that we had not before. And I feel like it’s really been good and healthy to kind of get back to the land, get back to our roots a little bit. Get back to our family of four. This year has provided a unique opportunity to really be focused on that. But now I you know, I having experienced this together as a family. I think we have a better foundation on which to go out like we’re in a healthier place. As a family, to where we can do a little bit of travel as things open back up, and some things changes, some changes happen in the world. But I think we I think we have a better base now.
Gregorio Uglioni 30:13
I really like what what you’re saying, and it’s from my side, it’s exactly the same because I have more time for my family because I’m working from from home. And I really love to have lunch together with, with my wife, with my, I’ve only one child is two and a half years old. And I really like to have everyday lunch with them to be together with them. It’s clear we are in the business world, we need to work we need to do what we need. But if we have much more time for our families, and also, it’s really great, and it’s an enriching, also my personal experience, are what I’m doing our I’m doing it, it’s extremely, it’s extremely interesting also to grow in this new situation. Need one question? If somebody has additional question wants to follow up with you, what’s the best way to connect with you?
Nate Brown 31:04
Yeah, hop on over to officium labs dot io. We’ve got a lot of great material out there in the form of our experience matters, podcasts, we have different blogs and different things of that nature. So we’d love to interface with you there. And also join CX accelerator. It’s a great community, it’s very encouraging. Would would love for you to be a part of that with us. And yeah, just just stay hungry, be out there learning. And thank you so much for doing this awesome work as a CX professional.
Gregorio Uglioni 31:34
Thank you very much Nate may their very last question for from my side. And there is specific thoughts inside the last golden nuggets that you want to share with the audience?
Nate Brown 31:48
Who that’s a good one. Definitely, just I mean, going back to the learning topic, be be learning a lot. Your ability to give back. And as Steve Gutzler would say your ability to be a fountain to others, is dependent on your fountain inputs into yourself, bring good things into you mentally, physically, otherwise, take care of yourself in these areas, you will find that your ability to overflow with with great abilities and great positive energy will be 10 fold, when you really take care of your own fountain inputs that are coming in. And it’s just there’s a high burnout factor with this work of CX we’re giving, giving, giving, giving and you will give yourself away, he will give till you’re dry if you don’t be really intentional about bringing fountain inputs into you. So think about what those fountain inputs are. How can you improve even the quality and the quantity of those so that you can give more and give better to the people around you.
Gregorio Uglioni 32:56
Thank you very much, Nate. It was really a great pleasure to have you. It’s an outstanding discussion. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time. And thank you also to the audience for watching this this webcast. It was great. Thank you very much. Speak to you soon. Bye bye
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