(Replay) PUNK CX with Adrian Swinscoe – E16

CX Goalkeeper with Adrian Swinscoe – S1E16 is about his book "CX PUNK" Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had a smart discussion with Adrian Swinscoe

Adrian is a Customer experience advisor, author, speaker, workshop leader and aspirant punk at Punk CX.

We discussed following tracks:
• With great power comes great responsibilities
• CX is not F* metrics
• Simplicity rules: ok?
• The answers are right in front of view

His book suggestion:

  • Worth It by Dan Price
  • The New Chameleons: How to Connect with Consumers Who Defy Categorization  by Michael Solomon

Adrian’s golden nuggets:
• “Find something you love to do”
• “Be curious about everything”

“Find something you love to do” @adrianswinscoe on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

“Be curious about everything” @adrianswinscoe on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

How to contact Adrian:

Thank you Adrian!

#customerexperience #leadership #innovation #transformation #punkcx

click here to subscribe
my YouTube channel


Gregorio Uglioni 0:03
Ladies and gentleman, Welcome to the next smart discussion today with Adrian. Hi Adrian.

Adrian Swinscoe 0:10
Hi, Gregorio, how you doing?

Gregorio Uglioni 0:12
Thank you very much for being in it’s really a great pleasure to have a real CX PUNK with me. But let’s start with the short introduction, Adrian, can you please share a bit about you?

Adrian Swinscoe 0:26
So, so first of all, thank you Gregorio for inviting me on your, your podcast, I know kind of how much effort it takes to organize these things I’ve been, personally, I’ve been podcasting crumbs for over 10 years now. So I’ve been, I guess I was, I started podcasting when it was when it wasn’t cool. And now it’s cool. And I’ll probably still be podcasting where it’s no longer cool. But I find it’s a really good way to, to meet people to network to kind of to learn new stuff. You know, I firmly believe that through my podcast, my podcast has made me smarter. Let’s put it that way. But a bit about me, I, oh, crumbs? Where do I start? So let me start, I start at the beginning at my, I don’t really consider myself to have had a career I’ve had more of a journey when it comes to my work. I’m a naturally I was I trained as an economist, and then also, as a teacher then worked did both over the course of the 90s, both here in the UK, and then also overseas primarily in the in the Middle East, where I lived for a number of years, specifically in Cairo in Egypt, then it got to the end of the 90s. And I flirted with the idea of becoming a professional economist. And that would have required me to take a PhD. And I went through the whole application process and that and had places all sorts of things. But then I decided not to not to proceed accidentally, I had the stamina to go through the kind of the whole PhD process. So in modern terms, I pivoted, and then jumped onto an MBA program in London, and then after that kind of went to work for a couple of big corporates work for the Financial Times Group, and then also for the Royal Dutch Shell group doing things like new value proposition development. So the basic building new businesses inside a corporate environment, I did that for a few years. And then from 2004, I left shell after a bit of a restructuring. They wanted me to take an operational job, and I decided that operations, what as much as I admire is not that not necessarily for me, the following that did a bunch of sort of freelance sort of consulting kind of work, quite a few things at risk, did one project where we nearly bought a steel company, but that’s another story. And then come around about 2008, I decided I liked the idea of working independently and but realize that if you want to do that, you’ve got to develop a reputation. So digital reputation. So I started to write, and I was writing about general stuff to start with, and then realize that that got quite boring very quickly. And so I realized I needed to write about something that I either liked or didn’t like, and wanted to change. And what I realized is that didn’t really I don’t really like bad service. Now, that doesn’t make me any different to anybody else. But it sort of frustrates me that having built things which have had customer and employee value at their heart. There, it frustrates me that organizations, many organizations get in the way of their people doing a good job. And so I started just sort of researching and writing about that and coming up with ideas with no particular view around looking for an answer or the answer, but just sort of exploring it. And so for the last 12 years, I’ve been doing that a self published a book in 2010, which was an anthology of a bunch of stuff that I’d written. started podcasting in 2000, January 2011, wrote another book in came out with Pearson in 2016. called How to wow, it did well and not to number one in on Amazon. So I can plausibly call myself a best selling author, and then latterly published another book called punk CX backing in well, summer of 2019. And over the course the last 12 years, I’ve been able to develop a portfolio of work that’s firmly rooted in the service and experience space where I do either a bunch of advisory work where lots of problems and they asked me to try and come and help them solve them. I do some speaking in writing I also do run a series of like sort of workshops where to facilitate either capacity building, or to help them make decisions of planning decisions. And so but in short, I get paid to do stuff I like with people I like so I’m, I’m a happy boy.

Gregorio Uglioni 5:20
That’s a really nice, I think that the last sentence is the most important one. Because if you can do something that you like, then you can also create value value added. And you mentioned that I had the opportunity to follow you several times. The last time was at the Sikh summit 2021, you you had a great speech, and you spoke with us about your book. And it’s really interesting to to overlook it to read it. And I would like to deep dive in this see, expand, I know that you did already quite a lot of podcasts webinars about your book. But if it’s a good one, then we need to speak about it. And perhaps the first question is, Where did everything started with this six pack idea. And then with the book?

Adrian Swinscoe 6:08
Well, it’s a having been in the space for some time now. I find myself in in December of 2017, in a pub, called the basketmakers in Brighton with a friend of mine, oh, Sheen. And I was and he’s worked sort of in the experience space too. And I was over a few pints of Guinness, I was bemoaning the fact that there was a lot of enthusiasm and activity and investment in that sort of experience space, but not a lot of significant improvement in outcomes. And that really frustrated me and I guess what drunks would might call a moment of clarity, I sort of blurted out, I wish somebody would do something a bit more punk. And that idea sat with me for a while and then popped back into my head. In the summer of 2018, I started thinking a bit more deeply about it, because you know, I’m a fan of punk music. And I was thinking about where punk came from. And it struck me that punk exploded out of the back of progressive rock in the 1970s. Now progressive rock whilst it was, it was popular, in its in of itself, it was also also accused of being overly elaborate or overly elaborate, rather, it’s complicated and it was self indulgent. And it was all about virtuosity and like, kind of I mean notes you can how fast you can play a guitar solo or how many different synthesizers you can play at the same time. And punk explore at the back of that with it’s this idea of like, well, it’s DIY is democratic, anybody can get in get involved, you don’t need a PhD in music to participate. And they made me think, think about the experience space and it struck me that the experience spaces looking a lot like prog rock did in the 1970s. And they had becoming overly codified, benchmark frameworks, metrics, etc, etc. And it was possibly more in danger or is in danger of losing sight of the people who was trying to help and be becoming more interested in itself. So therefore, it was starting to look a lot like prorogued in the 1970s and I said, Well, if that’s true and if we had prog rock, and then punk rock exploded at the back of it, and CX was looking a lot like prog rock, then what would a punk version of CX look like, and hence the book and the book is written, not like, so it looks like this. And it’s not like any other kind of business book, which is like black ink on white paper. It’s sort of inspired by music albums. And rather than having chapters it takes longer form of like having tracks which are like has titles in short, punchy can lyrics and it’s very sort of like visual in its in its in its in its looking kind of like feel so it’s a bit like installed along the lines of an album or a fanzine or so so forth. And I did it because it felt like it was like an art project. It was like a passion project for me. And I did it just to see what would happen and they call it my visual slap in the face for the for the customer experience industry, but basically gonna say into them, wake up and do better and be better. Because customers and employees they’re all waiting for for better can like help and thankfully, and I’m very grateful for this. It’s actually really it’s gone down really really well with lots of different sort of People just because of one its message and to kind of how its its format and how it stood out amongst others kind of things. And so that was never my intention. But I am very grateful and very pleased that it’s, it’s, it is resonating with a whole bunch of people.

Gregorio Uglioni 10:22
And I can confirm that it’s really a great book. And I think this is also what I really like. It’s their short chapter and not one chapter with 200 pages that you need to read, read through it. And at the end, you’ll come to the conclusion, but you have real value in each page in each in each chapter, or title that that you that you are reading, therefore, I fully agree. And I am really sorry, if I’m quoting in the wrong way, I am going to say some sentences. And then you can explain or elaborate about a bit about it. The first one it’s, it’s from Spider Man or the uncle of Spider Man, if I’m correct is with great power comes great responsibilities. What do you mean exactly with this with this sentence?

Adrian Swinscoe 11:08
Well, I look at all the different things that are that surround experience right now, whether it’s the use of behavioral economics, whether it’s the impact of behavioral design, whether it’s the use of AI to facilitate sort of like Journey orchestration, or next best offers or next best actions, depending on your company philosophy. And I look at all these different things, these big, big tools, they are very powerful tools. And I think that we have a responsibility to act with, with care when we have these tools at our disposal. And one of the best ways I could find to sort of articulate that came from Spider Man. And it was Spider Man’s Uncle Ben, who was talking to him about his gifts. And he was saying, look, you’ve got you have all these kind of gifts, these powers as it were, but with great power, comes great responsibility. And therefore, that felt like a really great saying to sort of shine a spotlight on the use of behavioral economics, behavioral design, you know, AI, algorithms, all these different things. And I thought, well, actually, you know what, everybody’s getting really excited by all this stuff, the possibility of all this stuff. But we also need to take a minute, a minute to make sure that we are using these tools and these powers in the right sort of way. And so that was that that chapter, or that track, rather, was done with a note of caution, which basically says, this is all brilliant, and there will be more to come. But let’s make sure that we act responsibly with all this sort of stuff that lies in front of us.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:07
Sure, and I am a former consultant, and therefore I can say that also a shiny PowerPoint slides, you can write quite a lot in there, but it’s not anything implemented until you do that. And then at the end, it’s hard work to to implement it and I think this is one one great start. The second and again quoting your book is customers appearance is more than F star star star star matrix.

Adrian Swinscoe 13:38
Well, if you can, if you want to kind of like paraphrase, it is that poster there is the one that’s kind of the picture that is taken in the book. Now. I need to say that that was originally on my wall as a poster. And it was stuck there fine. And then I put it in a frame and then it fell off the wall hence why it sat on top of a pile of books now. But that poster comes from a company called more than metrics, which is who are other kind of based in Austria and Mark stick door I think it was the CEO over there. They’re a design company gave me permission to reprint it in the in the book. And it just that whole track was about this idea that there seems to be this a lot of like, a lot of the talk and experience is dominated by metrics. And I was thinking about it and I was thinking about well actually. But if you think about it, customer experience I the experience a customer has is not about metrics. It’s about the experience somebody has it’s like saying somebody falls in love, then you know you go love Okay, fine. Do we do do we immediately talk about how we measure that on a scale of one to 10? No, it’s not as we as we focus on, you know, how it makes us feel and what it makes us do, and all these different sort of things. And so my point with that track was to point and say, look, let’s not reduce everything that we do to metrics, the work that we’re trying to do is, is, is, is way more involved in that. And so it’s just, obviously hold a mirror up to kind of people and just go look, a good customer experience is not about how your, how your customers can really is not only about how your customers gonna rate you, whether it’s on a CSAT, or NPS or CSAT score. It’s also about what do your customers come back in? Or do they talk about you? Did it you know, what is the impact that they’re the experience you’re delivering kind of have on the overall kind of business? Is it driving kind of like overall kind of business success? You know, what does? What role does your employees play in in all of that. So it’s like, it’s a much, much bigger kind of picture. And I was just cautioning about the idea of it being taking a very reductive approach to that, because let’s be particularly around satisfaction scores, or scores, like NPS were an improvement in NPS or an improvement and CSAT is no guarantee for success. You might have a positive NPS score. But NPS positive NPS scores and business success, they’re they’re only correlated, there is no necessarily causative link between those two things. And think we need to be meaning to be clear that actually what the things that we focus on are causative rather than they’re just correlations. And so that was just a warning to say, look, it’s more than this, it’s much, much more important than this. So let’s just make sure that we don’t just focus on the, on the, on the metric, because if I use a simple analogy, just to explain it, we don’t drive our cars, or motorbikes or whatever, by looking at the speedometer or looking at the fuel gauge. Those early indications of how fast we’re going and how much fuel we’ve got, we actually drive our cars by looking at the road ahead. And if you did drive your car, by looking at the speedometer, or looking at the fuel gauge, you don’t see where you’re going, you don’t see what’s in front of you, you don’t actually end up kind of, you know, more effectively navigating, you know, the journey and responding to the things that sit in front of you. And so it can be a very, very short sighted view of things. So that that track was just about a warning about like, lift your head up from your dials, and look around what’s happening in front of you, and then respond to that, not just your it’s not just the numbers, the numbers are important, but they’re not the whole picture.

Gregorio Uglioni 18:06
Sure. And I think there is one great example that it’s quite often discusses, after a nice candlelight dinner with your partner with your wife, or you’re not asking your wife or your partner from zero to 10. How are you recommending me? And therefore, it’s clear. Thank you, Adrian. The next point is simplicity rules. Okay. Yeah. Well,

Adrian Swinscoe 18:35
so the thing I thought about that is that we know that we know from our own personal perspectives, right, that we like things that are easy, convenient, effective, responsive, all these different sort of things, right. And yet, we get to the point where we keep adding and adding and adding and adding more things to the mix, like more channels, more technology, more choice, all these different sort of things. One of the problems is that, that runs counter to what we can know that customers can like once, and it also can become confusing for customers, where you give them so much kind of choice, that they end up not doing anything at all. And so the point of this track was to show or to try and challenge people to work harder to make things kind of more simple, you know, and that’s backed up. The power of that is backed up by research by a company called Siegel and Gale who’ve been doing ongoing research about the power of simplicity. They run this thing and it’s publicly available that you can scrutinize called simplicity index.com And you can look at the you know, what consumers consider to be some of the most simple kind of brands across the world and across different kinds Trees are what they’ve shown over time is their brands that have simplicity at their hearts. They outperform the stock market on a basket of stock and a basket of stocks by about anywhere between 306 100% of the last kind of like 10 years. So it’s there’s, there’s, there’s numbers present, excuse me, speak for themselves. But also, they have better relationships with their customers, either customers keep coming back for more and more there, it has a positive impact on their relationships with their employees as well. So you have less kind of, it’s easier for employees to do a better job and the employees tend to stick around for longer. They interesting. The other thing that I’ve learned recently is like, when you start to do things kind of simply, it can also build trust and credibility. So you actually kind of fortifies the relationship that you have with your with your consumers, because they trust that you’ve put the effort in now, I’m not saying that this is easy, but it is a challenge, you know, to try and make things simpler. I can’t remember the exact quote, but it was Charlie Mingus, the legendary bass guitarist who said something of the order that making things complex is really easy. But making things simple, is the height of Korea is hard. But it’s also the height of creativity. And I think that’s that is the challenge is that the rewards are there, we just need to push ourselves to try and achieve them to make things can look simple. So maybe a simple question, or a straightforward question to ask is like, whenever you’re adding something, ask yourself, What two things are you potentially could you potentially take away, because if you’re not taking anything away, or you’re not taking things away, at a rate of a rate greater than what you’re adding things, then you’re automatically adding complexity, complexity to your business.

Gregorio Uglioni 22:11
And I think if we can link with my other passion for sports and soccer, that’s exactly the same what trainers tell to the to the children to play in a simple way, make things simple, make the pass as you should, and then it works. And we’ve ever look at the superstars that are shooting in goals in the championship, in the Champions League, and so on. For them a simple because they are training really, really hard and doing only that. But for them, it’s simple, because they are trained quite a lot. And therefore they can do that. And therefore I fully agree with you. And perhaps one or two additional tracks before we finish the the main topic. And the answers are right in front of you. Could you please elaborate a bit on that, because this is I think of for quite a lot of businesses.

Adrian Swinscoe 23:07
So the the confounding thing about excuse me about human beings, is that we’re, we can’t be quite as smart. But we can also be equally dumb. A lot of the time, and we don’t, we’re not great at learning from history, we just need to kill the CABAC look at kind of the world outside as we just keep repeating the same mistakes. And so the point of this track was this idea that, you know, most of the answers are they’re hiding in plain sight, they’re in front of you, you know, and we, we more often than not, we result resort to the use of technology, or analytics or AI or machine learning to try and dig into these big data sets to try and define what the answers can have are. What’s interesting, I find, however, is that we tend to ignore what’s what’s right in front of us. You know, we talk about computing power, and in artificial intelligence and neural networks and all these different things. But what we’re doing, what we ignore, is that we have our own system, network, have super computers all around us. The thing is, they’re not artificial, they’re real, and they’re biological, right? And all these people around us are waiting. They’re trying to do this good, good work and trying to do this hard work. The point is, is that they have access to all this knowledge is at the end of this experience this insight, but yeah, we don’t necessarily leverage that as much as we possibly could. And so, I would say that most of the problems stuff that you that you need to solve, are already there already identified and they’re just in people’s heads, or you just need to go and kind of ask them and they’ll tell you before you need to, before you go mining any data, just go and talk to your people, they will tell you everything that you need to know, for probably 60 70% of all the kind of problems that you need to address right here right now. And, and if you do that, here’s the thing, two things will happen. One, you’ll get a clear, very, very clear direction about what you need to do. Now, tomorrow, the day after, and the following week, etc, etc. But the other interesting kind of positive thing that comes about it comes about from that is the fact that you’ve gone and spoken to your people, and you’ve got an ask their opinion, and then you’ve got an act upon their opinion, they’re gonna feel great. gonna feel kind of, you know, empowered and listened to and respected and all of those kind of positive kind of things. And so you what you end up doing is you end up kind of potentially raising both your customer experience and your employee experience at the same time. And so what’s not not to like? All it requires is for us, as people that are in analytical or management or supervisory or leadership positions, is just to go and ask, just to go and observe this to go and listen, just to go and see. Because the answers are there, we just need to go and find them.

Gregorio Uglioni 26:37
Yes, I think that’s that’s one really key topic, listening to the people. And then these people, these employees feel valuate valuable, and then they can bring us for

Adrian Swinscoe 26:50
It is an important point to add on this. And this is a point to leaders as well is one, don’t delegate that to somebody else, do it yourself. And the reason why I say that is because there’s a difference between kind of that, you know, having the hearts data, and then having the kind of the insight that’s generated from actually going to speak to people where you get a real visceral feel for what for what is going on. And that’s where you really connect the dots, where you get a real understanding of what is actually going on, and how people feel about that. So it basically creates the stories that will compel you to act we don’t, we are people of we are storytellers, by our very nature. And that’s the point is we have to try and seek out these stories and tap into these stories. And the second thing is, as a leader, if this is something that you don’t do normally, then you have to do it, and you have to keep doing it. Because your your role is to keep showing up and to develop that trust that people then start to feel comfortable with opening up to you. Because that doesn’t just happen overnight. That doesn’t, that doesn’t just doesn’t happen, just because you’ve shown up. Just because you have a position with responsibility and authority does not mean by default, that people are going to trust you and be open with you. So you have to keep showing up in such that you build relationships with them that you end up opening up that kind of that you know that that honest and open connect channel. Because if you don’t, you can’t just go and then they don’t say anything, and then you feel bad about it, or you’ve got nothing to say, maybe they’ve got nothing to say because they don’t trust you. And so if you the the answers are there. And if you’re not getting what you’re looking for the problem is probably your responsibility, not theirs. And so you’re the one that has to do something different different and keep showing up to be able to build that bridge to them to its utopian that conduit into that kind of that fabulous insight that they all have.

Gregorio Uglioni 29:05
I think that was a great dancer and a great input. Thank you very much Aidan. We are now moving to the second phase of this podcast only two or three additional question. And for me, it’s always customer experience is not about b2b or b2c, but it’s human to human and therefore we would also like to learn something additional about you I am how can you ensure to have your work life balance and we understand also from the beginning what you said that you really like what you’re doing and therefore it’s part of your I think the job is partial to your hobby. But what you’re doing also in this phase as is quite difficult lockdowns everywhere and and so on.

Adrian Swinscoe 29:51
So I think that the one thing that that I’ve done for years that I think is important sort of thing is to try and create He’s sort of boundaries and separation between different things. So I have a routine where I try and block out time as much as possible, where I try and focus different things. So when, before the lockdown and things I had, I had a almost a default way of trying to manage my my week. So I would try and have it such that unless I was traveling in general, General, generally speaking, Mondays would be at a very much an internal kind of office space day, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, which would be more client facing weather out out visit visiting clients or always working on a project related stuff. And Friday would be my either in office or slash overspill day, I catch up day. And that’s generally how I kind of like tried to manage my time. Because then I could then rather than that’s about me taking control of my time, so then I know where to put things. So I don’t feel like I’m running around all the time in the lab going from meeting to meeting and just going, what we’re talking about now. Because actually, it’s more about staying focused, and getting just getting things kind of done. And so that’s, that’s something that I’ve kind of used, and I’ve kind of had to modify that over the last kind of, like 12 months or so, to respond to this kind of new environment. And because I did find at the beginning, I was putting things in my diary all over the place, I didn’t have that travel pattern anymore. And, and I was sort of felt like I was losing control. So I ended up having to block out time. So I want to do this here this year, this year, this year. So I knew where I needed to put certain things, or when I was free for certain things. And that has allowed me to retain a degree of focus and control around my own sort of time, because I think most more people should do this, I believe, because time is the only thing that we can’t get any more of. And therefore we have to use it the best that we can. And the second thing that I do know enough continue to do is I have a list of things that I need to do. And I’m no different to anybody else. And I have a prior to I’ve had to do list, right? That helps me focus on what’s what’s in front of me kind of in the coming days. But what I also do, the other thing I do that which I learned was that I try and make up my to do list for the next day at the end of every day. And the reason why I do that, it’s almost like a, a signal to my brain, that the day is now finished. And so what you end up doing is you can you know, you can perish a lot of things that’s in the front of your conscious mind, into your subconscious mind. And it brings sort of truth and power to that whole idea when people talk about, I’m going to sleep on it. You know, that sort of thing. When you ask somebody somebody a question, and they say I’m going to sleep on it? Well, what they mean by that, I believe, is that they’ll let their subconscious mind think about it overnight. And what you’re doing by by making a less for what you want to do the next day is you’re doing exactly the same thing. You’re pushing those things into your subconscious mind and let your brain think about them. But it also means that you shut off the work day, and then when when it’s the evening or the weekend, if you choose to do any more work, then that’s fine. But you know, there’s a separation, because otherwise you end up kind of like things just get bleed together. And there is no separation. Therefore, it’s hard to get that that you know that focus on that rest time.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:50
Thank you. I think this is a really important hint. And ideas have to schedule the day. And the next questions, and we are coming to an end. Which book are you reading? And I’m clearly not asking which book would you recommend because we know which book you would recommend. So

Adrian Swinscoe 34:12
I’m reading my reading this and I’ve got two books rather right now. I’ve got this this one by Dan Price, because he’s just what he did with” gravity payments” is just incredibly inspiring. This is the story behind how on the back of reading a paper by Daniel Kahneman and one of us and a co author that it was looking at what point does earning more money contribute less and last year overall happiness. And they found that it was roughly somewhere in the region of between 70 and 75,000 US dollars in America. So there This guy, Dan price decided that he was going to pay everybody in his firm a minimum of $70,000 a year. The idea being that if I do that he believed if I do that, then it eliminates everybody’s other challenges in life, and they bring their best version of themselves to work. There’s a completely amazing Like model. He got a lot of flack for that. But the results of the business kind of speak for themselves, it done amazingly well. So it’s just a different way of thinking, I mean, and very, very creative. And then the other one is from a guy I know, called Professor Michael Solomon. It’s called “the new chameleons”. And it’s all about those how to connect with consumers who defy categorization because it’s not he believes it’s not just about demographics anymore. We’ve got to work harder, so that to better understand kind of customers. And so those are two that I’m sort of like, dipping into kind of like, now just to try and understand what that what they’re all about.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:04
Thank you very much, Adrian. And the second last question, if somebody wants to connect with you have additional question, it’s LinkedIn the best way to connect with you or

Adrian Swinscoe 36:15
LinkedIn or, or look, look me up on my website, I mean, I’ve got my email, and my phone number is all there you can, you know, knock yourself out there. So it’s A D R I A N S W I N S C O E, but I’m sure you’re ready, we’ll put that in the show notes, either search for my name, or on Google, and you’ll find my website or search for me on LinkedIn. And you’ll find me there. It’s like, the shop is open.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:44
Thank you very much. And this is my really last question. And the question is your golden nugget, it’s something that you want to share with the audience that you discussed, or something new, it’s something to leave to the audience.

Adrian Swinscoe 37:00
I would say that I think the biggest, there’s probably a couple of things, the biggest thing that I would say is find something I’m very lucky in that I find something that I love to do. And I would encourage everybody else to find their own thing that they love to do, whether it’s a subdomain of something, or it’s a bigger thing doesn’t really matter. I mean, but there is something to be said about enjoyment and passion and things. But the thing that I think that drives that, for me, is being curious. And being curious about everything. And I don’t mean to say that we should do that, because there’s never going to be an answer. But actually being curious and being open to other other ideas and things that you can learn from other places, I think is is a fantastic skill. And it’s fantastic. And the talent, I don’t think people work on the curiosity as much as the as they could, and they should. But I would say that, just be curious, you know, because better by being curious about something, you’ll become more interesting in yourself. And you just need to kind of like just, you know, it will just, they’ll just pay dividends. Just do it. That’s it.

Gregorio Uglioni 38:35
Thank you very much, Adrian. It’s, as usual, I’m not commenting your golden nugget because it’s your gold nugget. Thank you very much, Adrian.

Adrian Swinscoe 38:44
You’re welcome. Gregorio. It’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I hope your football team gets back to winning ways in the in the coming weekend. And thank you so much, once again for inviting me on your podcast. It’s been it’s been nice.

Gregorio Uglioni 38:59
It was a great pleasure. And ladies and gentleman, thank you to you also for watching it listening to it. It was a great pleasure again, having Adrian Swinscoe with me. Thank you very much. Bye bye.

Adrian Swinscoe 39:09
Take care. Bye bye

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