(Replay) Loyalty, Empathy and The Launch of Anthrolytics with Peter Dorrington – Special Edition

Episode released on: April 19th 2021

CX Goalkeeper with Peter Dorrington – SPECIAL EDITION about the Launch of Anthrolytics Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Peter Dorrington

LinkedIn Headline: 

Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Officer at Anthrolytics Ltd, Founder of XMplify Consulting and Event host/moderator for the Executive Leaders Network


We spoke about loyalty, empathy, personalization and the launch of Anthrolytics

My learning during this discussion:

  • Customer satisfaction measurements are not always a good indication of loyalty
  • There are different measurement methods
  • Hyper-personalisation will be a key success factor in future
  • In future, it will be possible for a business to express empathy at scale.

Peter contact details:

Thank you Peter.

#customerexperience #employeeexperience #innovation #digitization #analytics

I wish to Anthrolytics and its founders all the best.

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

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Gregorio Uglioni 0:03
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the second half time, after the first half time with Peter Dorrington. It’s a big pleasure to have you again on my show, Peter!

Peter Dorrington 0:13
Gregorio, as always, it’s a pleasure to be with you again, looking forward to our second half play.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:20
Thank you very much. I think we already had a really good warm up in the pre discussion before this recording. And we were speaking about really, really interesting topics that we will share now also, together with you. And really, let’s let’s start, we spoke a bit about metrics, KPIs, and the link to loyalty, there are quite a lot of KPIs that we can measure we can add for companies to understand about loyalty. But what’s your view on that?

Peter Dorrington 0:52
Well, it’s been an interesting evolution. So one of the things we were talking about just a moment ago was how the pandemic has broken a lot of established habits, including the habit of loyalty. And yeah, now this is not something that was new, but it accelerated. So habits, for example, like I always use the same retailer, because it was convenient to do that, when you’re in an online world, you theoretically have the whole world as a marketplace to shop in. So you have a lot more choice, and you can choose on a lot more factors. So one of the things that, I would say is that there’s lots of evidence that some of the measures of customer satisfaction that we use, are not the strong predictors of loyalty that we think they are. So we often draw relationships between old customers who are very satisfied are more loyal than those that are not well, it’s actually not a good predictor of loyalty. dissatisfaction, though, is a good predictor of disloyalty. So if you disappoint customers consistently, yes, they will leave. The problem with satisfaction as an indicator of loyalty, though, is that the loyalty is very conditional. So it’s conditional on a whole bunch of things like I’m loyal whilst you’re still affordable, I’m loyal. Whilst you’re loyal back to me, I’m loyal whilst I have no other choice in the matter. So a lot of organizations have already recognized that traditional satisfaction scores are problematic. And they flip to things like customer effort score. So let’s strip all the friction out, let’s try and make the transaction really smooth. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But a lot of businesses are also doing that as well. You know, we’re all racing to offer frictionless experiences. So I think that, firstly, we can’t rely on customer satisfaction on its own. As a good predictor of loyalty, we have to understand what else is going on in the customers mind, what else is influencing their decision, we have to recognize that you can count no customer has being truly loyal, until we’ve offered them another choice, or somebody else has offered them an alternative. And they’ve turned it down in our favor. And the pandemic has been a big shake up for businesses and consumers. And we’re already seeing migrations of customers from one set of habitual behaviors to new habits. And I’m not convinced all of them are going to come back. So even as we open up retail stores, not all of those customers are gonna come back. That’s even assuming they can. So if we take in the UK, the Arcadia group, its physical real estate is all but gone. So whilst the brands will still exist, and there will be people who will still shop at some of those brands, we’re not being able to come back and say, Oh, we’re going to see the footfall in the high street that we did before. So say last year, a lot of change went underway. It’s really tested a lot of our assumptions about what do we mean by loyal? And is loyalty, a direct function of satisfaction?

Gregorio Uglioni 4:03
I think that’s that’s really an outstanding start of this discussion. Perhaps one question in between and also one comment, the question, and it’s how do you define loyalty? Because I think it’s also important to have the same understanding before before you start answering this question. I think this is exactly the main point that we need to point out all the data and all what we were sure that before this pandemic was working today needs to be discussed again, because the new normal, it will it won’t be the new normal. It’s something new that we are creating now and we will learn in future. But this was one comment on what you said. And I fully agree with what you’re saying. And how do you define loyalty?

Peter Dorrington 4:49
Oh, it’s such a good one. Thank you for for bringing it up. So tenure is often used by organizations. That’s literally how many times over What time does a customer shop with us? So and so we say, well, if they’ve been with us for 12 months, 14 months, two years, five years, however, there’s a challenge with tenure in that you can have inactive customers who are still valid members. And lots of organizations say, Oh, you’ve got your 100 million members. But if 99% of them are economically inactive, are they really loyal? So I think you have to have a combination of tenure, and economic activity, or at least activity. Not every activity that we have with one of our customers has to have an economic hour come, it certainly has to have a relationship outcome. So there’s no such thing as a neutral interaction with customers, they either add to the value in the relationship or they detract from it. So I think for me, loyalty is a combination of tenure. That’s the length of the relationship and the activity within it. So we have to be able to see, you know that we are interacting, that we have a relationship. And it’s not just an intermittent drive by every three years when we come up to a contract renewal or something.

Gregorio Uglioni 6:10
Thank you, Peter. And I think this is also one common definition of loyalty now that we have the same understanding, if you’re saying that what we are measuring now we know now it’s not the perfect KPI measurement of loyalty, what would you use to measure loyalty.

Peter Dorrington 6:26
So this is something I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. Because there’s nothing wrong, by the way, with measures of satisfaction, they do serve a very useful operational role. So they’re very good at indicating when you’re getting things right when you’re getting things wrong. And they should be ringing alarm bells if you’re seeing something that’s coming out. So I mentioned that we’ve looked at satisfaction, a number of organizations have recognized there are challenges with satisfaction as a predictor of customer behavior. So we’ve looked at things like the customer effort, score, or ease, and the for the frictionless relationship, the frictionless journey, which does have a beauty all of its own, I mean, none of us want to be stuck on a mobile for half an hour trying to do something simple, like change a password. But there is a race to the bottom, in that it doesn’t really matter what you do. If it’s an interaction with a customer, there is an irreducible core of effort that has to exist. And once everybody’s reached that, so all of the vendors have got to the same place, it stops being a competitive differentiation. And we see this in things which are, you know, where apps are very prevalent, like mobile banking, transferring money from account to account is three, four clicks, it should be really simple. So we just come to expect that as consumers. But what some research I was involved in last year, and actually a lot of third party research has shown that right now is that’s not necessarily what customers value. It’s what they expect. What they’re valuing, are much more relational. They’re more about empathy. They’re more about understanding who I am and my context, listen to me, take the time to acknowledge what it is that I’m feeling and why I’m feeling that and then do something different with that. So, you know, I’ve been exploring the role of empathy a lot for the last five years. And that has exploded as a topic over the last 12 to 18 months as businesses recognizing that that’s a battleground. It’s the way that customers feel. Now, what has made that difficult for businesses to measure is that most businesses are using using performance measures from management thinking that’s over a centuries old. It’s measured the things it’s measured the transactions, it’s measure the interactions by their quant and not their qualitative impact. And more difficult still, is how do I measure those feelings, emotionals and attitudes in my customers, in terms of their impact on our business, so the way that they impact our revenue or our costs, or increase customer tenure and economic activity, but that has changed. And over the last two, three years, a lot of work has been going into empathy. Now at the moment, it tends to have been focused on giving people the tools to deal empathetically with customers or other employees. So we talk about EQ training a lot. Nothing wrong with that. And it does fulfill one of the three parts of empathy very well, which is emotional empathy. So I understand what you are feeling and I feel something akin to that. It’s not sympathy, which is yeah, I recognize you’ve been what are you feeling? It’s actually I feel some of that. But what’s happened over the last year or so, is a real in in fact, into the other two dimensions. So the first of which is cognitive empathy, which businesses have been looking at, which is, I understand what you’re feeling and why you’re feeling it at a cognitive logical level. So I can understand why you might be happy or angry and what caused that. But the really interesting area, and the really exciting area now, is when we turn that into compassionate empathy, or action, so I understand your feelings, I understand why they’re there. And I understand the influence that has on your behavior. As a result of that, and my understanding of that, I take a different action. And now I can do that through automated channels and digital channels. So the research last year was quite surprising in how it showed that some digital channels were displaying in the views of the customer, empathy. And we can see that that empathy is reflected in the behavior. And that’s quantifiable things like, do they buy more do they re sign a contract, do they accept to cross sell or upsell measure, and those can be directly related to the bottom line. So now, we have this unique ability to not only talk about businesses as offering compassion, with their competence, but we can put compassion on the bottom line. And we can show how much it influences business results. And that is perhaps been the thing that has until now been the hardest to demonstrate, you know, that feelings have a euros dollars or pounds impact on the business.

Gregorio Uglioni 11:40
It’s really, really interesting. And I was thinking, first of all, a joke, but you know, in order to continue the discussion, we are not discussing any more about return on equity, but we are discussing on return on empathy.

Peter Dorrington 11:56
Yeah, absolutely. And it does. And this is one example I can give you. And again, it came from the research. So this was people who’d had interactions with customer services, and they were reflecting on it, and we weren’t asking them, What do you intend? Or what we asked them was? Do you feel that they reflected your emotions? You know, did they acknowledge them? Do they understand them? And how that changed your perception. And one of the findings quite clearly was that when you treat customers with compassion, it’s okay to say no, which means you don’t have to do all the transactional things trying to buy their loyalty, just treat them better. And then the customer is much more likely to say, Okay, you’re not giving me what I want. But at least you’ve listened to me, and you’ve taken the time to explain to me why you can’t. And that’s okay, and are still looking at you in a more positive light than if you’d actually just said, Yeah, okay, this is the rules and treat me like a number. None of us like to be treated like a case number, we want to be treated like a person like a human being. And the trick to do that is not just rely on our people to do it, which is super important, because they’re the ambassadors of our brand. But how we manifest that through every channel and every interaction point in our organization. And three years ago, you couldn’t do that, it just was not possible. Now, it absolutely is possible. And in my view, this is going to be one of the things that are going to set the leading organizations apart from the lagging ones, they’ll both be competent, they’ll both offer low effort, low friction, customer journeys, but one will offer compassion in that journey. And one will just rely on competence. And I think competence is not the competitive differentiator that we like to think it is, after all, let’s take a bank. Again, if a bank does a bad job, you make front page news. So all the banks are pretty competent at being banks. So you can’t use competence as a differentiator.

Gregorio Uglioni 14:00
And I think this is the prerequisite to have the competence to perform the tasks that you need to perform. But then to go the extra mile and to have this differentiating factor, then you need to be empathetic. And I think to quickly go back to what you said, the company can say no to a customer. But the way is saying the company saying no. It’s it’s what really matters. And this is a key statement. And it’s extremely important that perhaps we spend one one additional minute minute on that exactly what you were saying and they perform two examples. And these are extreme, but it’s only two for the discussion. At the end. It’s exactly I have a big problem I call a company and the first question is, could you please give us your customer number? It’s 18 digit on the on the back of your card. I don’t have the cards. I don’t know my name. I know my name. I am Greg. Could you please find out his information? And I think this is exactly what what what you’re saying on one side. And then on the other side, it’s really then this Zappos, and so on that are extremely empathetic and are also creating new business, as you said, with a bottom line impact, because they are supporting people, and they’re treating really, people human like humans. And again, we are all human beings, we are on in the business, but we are also customer. And we should therefore understand that, and at the end, now, you’re really speaking about human beings. And therefore, every human being is different from from the odors. And therefore we are coming from the old segmentation that was performed early, early, early days, to understand the marketing words. Then we have these personas, the buyer personas, or the customer experience personas, and now we are going into direction online hyper personalization. What’s your view on that?

Peter Dorrington 16:02
Well, I couldn’t agree with more, I think. Yeah, it’s interesting, because I think segmentation as exhibited, profiles tends to be a heuristic. And it tends to be about groups. So it’s a rule of thumb that we apply to groups of people, all customers who look broadly like this, all want the same things. Now, we know from our own personal experiences, that’s not the case. You know, there are different times I want different things. But there are some fundamentals, which most of us want. Most of us want some humanity in our interaction. And we will remember those times when, you know, we were treated with compassion, it’s not the competence that stands out in our minds. It’s the compassion that was displayed, it was the person who was understanding that even if they can’t give us what they want, they took the time to listen, they took the time to really get to know why we’re feeling what we’re feeling, and perhaps they can diffuse some of those feelings so they can take some of the sting out of the know. Now, yeah, this is interesting, because it’s leading to something that is an infographic segmentation, that is that a feelings based segmentation. And it of course, it’s it’s human, it’s very humanistic. And we’re not interested in whether my car feels or not, it doesn’t, you know, so. But the driver of the car definitely does. So there are things that we can look at, and so on the basis of empathy and compassion. And particularly if we can express that digitally, then what we have is an opportunity to bring much more human centric design into a business. And when we’ve seen reports where you know that, and I see lots of them will say, well, customers will pay more for a better experience than not, you know, or customers will leave when they get the first bad experience, I tend to think that there’s an unspoken implicit part of that, which is, and it’s experience as its evaluated in its entirety, not just competence. You know, so, you know, we’ve in any human relationship, if somebody we love makes a mistake, we forgive them. Yeah, we say, okay, we accept, we’re human, we make errors, you know, we accept, we don’t always get what we want, we learn about compromise. But we compromise with people we respect, we know we trust, and these are all emotive words, you know, now, of course, they are underpinned by basic competence, you know, I trust you, because I know that you’ll do a good job on a regular basis. But because of the nature of my trust, and the way that I feel about you, I will accept the occasional aberration. So when it doesn’t go, right, I’m not just going to walk away as a result of that. But so many businesses are so reliant on the competence piece, we have to make sure that we resolve that on the first call, we have to make sure that we never have any failures. You know, if somebody gives us some feedback, we dive straight in and, and what we actually try to do is convince them they’re wrong, rather than actually trying to understand what it is about that that’s influencing it. And as I say, if my relationship with my wife ended every time we had a disagreement, it wouldn’t have survived the first month, I think, now nearly 40 years into being married, I think, you know, it’s give and take that there is mutual respect, mutual compassion, mutual understanding. And that mutuality, I think is is for me, super interesting. It does mean though, that businesses have to get a whole lot better at listening to their customers. And then they can’t just listen, they have to act and they have to act differently based upon what they’re hearing. So, infographic segmentation, I think is going to be a new tool in our arsenal, about how we deliver these kinds of differentiated experiences.

Gregorio Uglioni 19:56
And I think you you’re you’re really using a great text ample because this is one of in our life, one of the most important relationship is to my wife, to your wife, and that to the partner. And basically, I think this is this is really key to listen, but in an in an active way, because if what it’s often spoken, it’s not what it’s really the feeling of the of the person on the other side. And therefore also this this important understanding and leveraging both of these example, if I know that my, my wife is angry due to something, then perhaps I treat her in a different way than if we would be extremely happy because of something different happens. And I think this is also important to understand the experiences that we are facing with companies, or depending on the from the contextual setup. And perhaps now I’m extremely happy because I’m having the discussion with you. And if later I’m going to discuss with the company, something I have, I am in a mood, a positive mood, and therefore I also accept mistakes and so on. If I would have a bad discussion, then perhaps I would react differently. And I think also on this topic on these different feelings and so on, you are working together with older people or their great minds. And you are creating a new venture. Could you share already something with us?

Peter Dorrington 21:19
Yes, thank you. So, yeah, the new venture is called Anthro logistics. And so it’s a new business, which is looking to operationalize this empathetic view. In fact, our primary focus is not on people training, because there are so many good organizations that do that. But digital empathy is a particular strength. And it’s taking some of these behavioral analytics approaches, you know, the ones where we understand the implicit or the unspoken part of the relationship. And we use the techniques that I’ve been researching for a while now to understand your why do people do what they do? Why do apparently similar people behave differently, when presented with the same problem? What they’re going to do next, and then the client can make decisions about what they’re going to do about that and be proactive. So let’s take my family as an example, again, there are times I know I’ve disappointed my wife, I might forget a birthday or something. And what I do is, when I remember, I think, Oh, I’m about to go home, I better get some flowers and chocolates on the way home, I’ll take a proactive step to say, Look, I’m sorry, yeah, but let me try and make it up a little bit for you. by reflecting on that, well, businesses don’t have to wait for customers to complain, we often are very aware of the things we do that delight our customers, we also know there are times when it doesn’t go as well as we would like. So what analytics is doing is looking at this relationship between what people and it’s not just customers, by the way employees as well. But what do they truly care about? What what’s really valuable to them? And why is it valuable to them. And then you can use those insights in an operational environment to make better business decisions. So you know, say be proactive, and not just reactive. To decide that core, say, or in your country, we’re talking about product A and product B, which of those two is the best fit for this customer. And maybe it’s not any product, maybe it’s I reach out to this customer just to reinforce and rebuild the relationship in the same way I tell my wife, at least four or five times a day, I love you. Yeah, and just keeping signaling that, you know, you’re important. This is we don’t have anything to transact right now. But, you know, I want you to know that this is a relationship we value. So it’s the science part that’s becoming the engineering of this. So the science of data science and behavioral science is now becoming systems and engineering. So that’s what the new venture is about. It’s taking some of the research work, I’ve been doing some of the theory, turning it into practical systems that we can go to market and help clients turn this rather Woolly World of emotions and empathy and compassion into a pragmatic enterprise class solution.

Gregorio Uglioni 24:04
It’s extremely interesting. And I think it will be also extremely challenged, challenging to make that understandable. But I think if you can make them understandable, understandable, then it’s key because then you’re really empathetic with the people and you’re really touching the right points to get the to close the sale or to improve some to improve a relationship. Basically, the question that I would have now it’s, it’s already difficult on the deep on this digital world to be empathetic with one person in front of you. And now you’re speaking about empathy at scale on a business level. Is this really possible? What’s What’s your view on that? How long does it will take to create something like that?

Peter Dorrington 24:53
Yes, I know, it’s a good question. I know it is. So I say we’ve spent oh well over a decade. He’s now talking about EQ in people. And those are those real time one to one conversations, you know, being able to adjust on the fly. Well, now we’ve got the systems that can act in real time, particularly digital systems. So we have next best action. Next best offer real time campaigning, you’re very context aware. So all the infrastructure has been there, what has been lacking is some of the real time decision making. So the way that we’ve made this work at scale is not trying to model individual people. Because we’re so complicated and messy, you can’t realistically do it. So I can’t say Greg on a day to day basis, or hour to hour in exactly what you’re feeling. But what I can do say on the balance of probabilities, and knowing the way that our relationship has progressed, and the things that have happened between us, we can extrapolate from that, how you’re likely to be feeling, particularly if we do that over time. So we may start from the same position, but very quickly, we start to diverge and your journey with a vendor will be different from my journey with the same vendor, even though we may have started with the same starting point and the product. And that’s the bit that, you know, took some real thinking about how do you operationalize this, at scale for every customer, including the ones you’re not talking to, which was really what got me started on this whole field is I cannot compete with a good customer service rep. In an one to one conversation, that particular one has had the right EQ training, you know, I still struggle with human feelings and reading the signals. But what I can do is saying, Well, if we have a range of choices, and now we have a range of insights into how somebody might think, and we know the relationship between the two, we can inform the choices. So we’re really giving a boost to artificial intelligence in terms of how to choose. So not every choice is purely transactional, some choices are going to be influenced by, we know there is an emotive weight with with some of this. And so

that could be the basis of, well, let’s not try to upsell this customer right now, because they actually have some underlying anxiety we need to address first, or this is somebody who is has been on a journey of delight for a couple of months, they’re probably feeling very positive now might be the ideal time to talk to them about an upsell or cross sell. So we leverage the infrastructure that’s there for taking the action, the compassion, a bit of it, what we’re doing is feeding into that the cognitive, emotional intelligence to saying, Okay, this is what these customers are probably feeling. And this is how it’s going to influence their decision. This is the things that customers like, Gregorio, in this situation probably feels, and what we’ve done is accepted, there’s no perfect answer to this, it just needs to be better than what is otherwise available. And all the evidence is it is better, it’s markedly better. But at the end of the day, what we actually have in many organizations in the future, I’m sure will be a blend of channels. So there will be times when it’s appropriate to talk to human beings, there’ll be times when I want to do a purely transactional self service. And somewhere in the middle, there’ll be the ones wearing or maybe I’m self serving a bit, or I’m doing a bit of digital interaction. But I’d like it to feel like it’s, it feels more focused on me. Now there is a particular term, not mine, that is being used in this and it’s called hyper personalization. And that’s one manifestation of what that looks like. So hyper personalization is where personalization, so what I know about you, including, as I say, the infographic insights about you meats real time, so where I have insights into your context, and what it is you’re trying to do, and the blend of those two things mean, instead of treating you as a segment of one to x, which may be many 1000, I can treat you as a segment of one, because I can talk to you about what’s important to you right now. And the only way to do that at scale is to involve technology, you do need some automated decision making. But none of it works unless you have the right data to feed into the systems in the first place. Which is the next big challenge, I think for some of the voices of customer programs we’ve come to know and love is how do they elicit these kinds of insights so that we can now do a new class of analytics, which isn’t just Am I ticking the boxes in terms of the amount of time spent on the call or whether the goods were delivered on time? First time after all, as I say, from a competence point of view, we now pretty much come to expect that we expect if I place an order online line, Amazon has taught me that I can expect it the following day, and it will be what I ordered, and it will be unbroken. And it will be at a convenient price. Now, from a competitive point of view, I’m not going to go up against Amazon on that, I’m not going to try and out compete on competence and extraordinarily competent organization. And I use them, by the way, because we’re so familiar with them, it can be Alibaba or anybody else. What I need to do is compete on something that perhaps they’re not doing such a good job of, which is, treat me as an individual treat me as a human being, show some care and compassion in our interactions. So exciting times, yeah, I’m looking forward to the new challenge and say, with analytics, working with our clients to turn these research these insights, these first time programs into something which is repeatable at scale.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:54
And, first of all, I wish you all the best. And this is an extremely interesting field. And I think it’s really important to try to make the difference. Also the because, as you know, I’m working in the credit card market industry. And now I’m really seeing quite a lot of different offerings coming from all the different issues. One issue is offering me one on the three C’s, if I perform seven transaction in store in the next month, the other one is offering me 20 services if performing with a specific product to transaction in store and key transaction online. And debit, it’s my my question would be to these issues. To check my data. I never used this card in store, why should use I use them there, it’s clear, they want to push me to use them, because then I will use also future them. But if I never used them, then I don’t care about these offerings. And nowadays, it’s really every bank, every industry, every insurance is offering you 50 switches one on the choices in order to close the policy to sign this contract. And that, and therefore, it’s I really would like to get personalized offering, as you’re saying, and if there are also aligned with my mood, even better, because then I will close the sale.

Peter Dorrington 32:15
Yeah, and I think, well, you’ve raised an interesting case, though, because I think many people in the retail financial services shave margin in an attempt to get customers to be firstly loyal. And secondly, to be more economically active. You know, the challenge that many of the branded logoed credit cards have is that they’re supposed to be enablers of loyalty, but so many times they go to the back of the wallet or the person they don’t get used. And as you say, what you actually have there is a messages from these banks, which are completely dissonant to your behavior, you know, why are they offering you offers on things you’re never going to do is I get it to my bank, you know, in my statement there, they will make me monthly offers 1718 offers, none of which are of interest to me. And I’ve never activated any of those offers. And I think this has been going on for years. When are you going to recognize that I’m not interested in those things. That’s not what’s important to me. So I look forward to the time when you’re the card issuer has identified Gregorio in a segment one, and what you’re interested in what matters to you, what will enable you to perhaps be more active, but with doing that without spending more money, so why should you shave margin by making these offers? And I’m sure you’ve seen rate chases that people say I’m only going to switch card because I get six months at zero interest for a balance transfer. And then six months later, I’m gonna switch card again, you know, well, firstly, do we really want those people as customers? But secondly, how can we stop that behavior? How do we get people to recognize it’s more than the base rate? It’s more than the finite economic benefit that when we’ve got these relationships, right, it does foster true loyalty. Because if I’m getting something which I value on a regular basis that I can depend upon from an organization much more resistant to switching. So well, why would I go somewhere else where I’m likely to get a lesser experience, even if it’s shaped saves me a few euros a month, you know, I’m prepared to pay a bit more to have a service where I am valued. And I think retail financial services have actually got quite a long way to go. Interestingly, we’ve had a lot of disruptive banks over the last few years. We’ve seen them come into there and then they’re making new markets, often on the basis of they disrupt on ease and convenience and competence saying, like my business account, I could open it in one day. I got my debit card within a couple of days. It’s really easy to do, but there are at least a dozen competitors all chasing the same thing. They too have started too identify, well, what else can we build into the relationship into the experience where we can differentiate and there is one thing that almost every organization I’ve dealt with has that is a unique resource. And that’s the relationships they have with their customers. That is impossible to reverse engineer. And it’s impossible to copy because all relationships are bilaterals. You know? So yes, it’s, you know, how I feel about my bank and how my bank responds back to me. You know, that doesn’t exist with any other bank. That’s just between me and my bank, me and my grocer, me and my auto manufacturer. There’s real value in those relationships, if you can relate, if you can realize it as a relationship, and not just as a puddle of data, that we can go back and say, Well, you know, up until a year ago, people who bought vehicle category A went on to buy a kit vehicle, Category B, when they had the second chart, things like that. Yeah, that is that area where the disruption of the pandemic means that isn’t reliable anymore. People have shifted a lot of their expectations. As I said, it broke, established habits, established norms have been tested. And some of those are going to be different in the future. And we also need to recreate new data to understand what these new COVID consumers are going to be like, what do they care about? What do they care about now, rather than what they cared about two years ago, when we live all lived in a different world?

Gregorio Uglioni 36:33
I think that’s the best way to close this discussion. And I am really happy and proud to have you as a friend because you are going to shape the future of this of these experiences. We also with your new company. Thank you very much, Peter. It was really a great discussion.

Peter Dorrington 36:52
No, thank you for having me. Gregorio and I value our friendship as well. I’m always learning from professionals like you. I occasionally have a bright idea, but I can’t make it real without colleagues and associates like you and the other great CX people I spend time with.

Gregorio Uglioni 37:08
Thank you very much, Peter. And thank you very much also to the audience. It was a great pleasure to have you here. And I hope that you enjoyed this discussion as much as I enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

Peter Dorrington 37:21
Thank you, Bye Bye.

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