Episode released on: May 17th, 2021
CX Goalkeeper with Annette Franz – S1E22 is about her book "Customer understanding" – Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper
The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Annette Franz
LinkedIn Headline: Coach | Keynote Speaker | Author | Putting the “Customer” in Customer Experience
My learnings discussing about the book “Customer Understanding”, while we went through the three chapters:
1) Listening
- Start with the customers and design / develop products for them. (and don’t try to find customers for the products).
- Starting with “listening” and continuing by capturing all the relevant data and consolidating them: these steps help to really understand the customers.
2) Characterize:
- Segments are like the continents on our planet. They are too high level to design experiences.
- A “Buyer Persona” is also too high level for customer journey mapping. It shows preferences, what customer buys and how he/she buys.
- The details required for a Persona to map journey are e.g., needs, pain points, JTBD, …… it makes companies one steps closer to being able to personalize experiences.
3) Empathize:
- It is important to understand the experience customers have today and redesign it (how it will be tomorrow)
- You can’t transform something you don’t understand therefore, you need the “as-is” situation first.
- “Current state”, “service blueprint” and “future state” are the three most important steps in the CJM process.
- With the AS-IS situation you can perform tactical fixes. Indeed, it takes time to implement the desired “future state” and customers are maybe already gone.
- Fixing what is happening inside a company (using the service blueprint) is important to empower employees to deliver the desired experiences.
- The experiences are human and emotional, technology helps to facilitate the experiences.
- If you want to be successful you should appeal to both sides of CEO brain. The analytical side with the ROI and emotional side by making them feel the experiences and bringing stories to them. Additionally, make them understand what legacy they want to leave to the organization. How they want to be remembered…
Her book suggestion:
- The Customer Comes Second: Put Your People First and Watch ‘Em Kick Butt; Hal F. Rosenbluth
Annette’s golden nuggets:
- “Culture really is the foundation of everything that you’re doing”.
- “Take care of your employees, and they will take care of the customers. And ultimately, that means they will take care of the business as well”
How to contact Annette:
- http://www.cx-journey.com/
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/annette-franz/
- Customer Understanding on Amazon
Thank you, Annette!
#customerexperience #leadership #customerunderstanding #cxgoalkeeper
“Culture really is the foundation of everything that you’re doing”. @annettefranz on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast (replay)
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“Take care of your employees, and they will take care of the customers. And ultimately, that means they will take care of the business as well” @annettefranz on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast (replay)
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#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast
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Transcription:
Gregorio Uglioni 0:03
Ladies and gentlemen, I am delighted to have with me Annette Franz Hi Annette.
Annette Franz 0:08
Hello, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, there’s going to be a great conversation.
Gregorio Uglioni 0:13
Thank you very much. Am I really thrilled to start the discussion with you. But perhaps for let’s say the last two or three people on the water that don’t know you, could you please introduce yourself?
Yes, of course,
Annette Franz 0:26
of course. Yeah. So I have, you know, I’m founder and CEO of CX journey, Inc, which is my own consulting firm, I’ve been out on my own consulting. For the last four years, I’ve actually been in this customer experience space for almost 30 years, I started my career back in 1992, at JD Power and Associates, and you know, really sort of watched the evolution of customer experience. You know, back in the day, it wasn’t even called customer experience, it was called customer satisfaction. We talked about customer loyalty, CRM, customer relationship management, those kinds of things. But so I spent over the last 30 years, I’ve spent probably 20 of those years on the vendor side running consulting services organizations, I’ve also had three stents on the client side. Yeah. And so and here I am, for last four years running my own consulting business. So it’s been, it’s been probably one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.
Gregorio Uglioni 1:19
Thank you very much for your introduction. And what I would like also to point out is that you are cxpa board member, the customer experience professional associations, board member, I am a CCXP, and therefore, even more to be
Annette Franz 1:36
yes, I am just you know, last year, I was the board chair, I’ve been a board member, this is now my sixth year, this will be my last year, I am the immediate past chair this year, and you know, serving the serving the association has been, it’s been an honor for me, really to help to, you know, advance this profession and to help other folks. It’s, it’s been very cool. It’s been very cool.
Gregorio Uglioni 2:02
Thank you very much. And let’s start the discussion. And as usual, I would like to discuss about this book.
Annette Franz 2:09
Thank you. I see, I saw a bunch of post it notes there too. So
Gregorio Uglioni 2:13
yes, I really use it on a daily basis. And, and I really enjoy it because it’s full of insights. But it’s not me to explain the book. Now it’s your turn to turn on your book. And I know you spoke about your book, quite often, we know that you are also going to publish a new version. But let’s stay on this on this book. And the structure is extremely simple and understandable. You have three main topics. After the introduction. You start with the Listen character’s eyes. And then and the last part empathize. And perhaps I start with some question, I know that quite a lot of the questions came directly from from the book. But we I think you wrote this book, and quite a lot of people are still discussing about it. What I’m seeing is businesses are still organized in products. Every business has one silos for one product. And it’s quite difficult to find out this matrix in where the customer are, what’s your view on that?
Annette Franz 3:17
Yeah, you know, that happens quite often. I’m working with a couple of clients right now, where that is the situation and you know, like to say, these companies are finding customers for their products and not products for their customers. And that’s really frustrating, right? Because if you spend time designing a product, who are you designing it for? So you really need to bring the customer into the organization. And you know, you since you read the book, you know what the last chapter of the book is all about, right? It’s that open letter to the CEO to say, Why is this so hard? Why is it so hard to a why do we have to show ROI for customer experience initiatives? And those kinds of things? Why is it so hard to understand that you are in business because of an for that customer? And and so yeah, so I’m I’m all about, you know what if we listen to our customers, then we will design and develop products for them to meet their needs, and help them do whatever it is that they’re trying to do not the other way around. Because I think if you focus on the product, then what ends up happening is it’s ultimately going to fail at some point, I think just because it’s not necessarily meeting the needs, and so you’re constantly iterating and trying to figure out what your customers are saying and doing and why it’s not working for them. And if you started with the customer, I think you’d be a lot more successful a lot quicker.
Gregorio Uglioni 4:33
And I think it starts everything with the customer because with without customer it’s quite difficult to to have a business. In your first chapter chapter, you’re really discussing and explaining this part of the listening. What’s the most important insight that you have in the book that you would like to share with the audience?
Annette Franz 4:55
With regards to listening, I would say that it’s not just about listening. So listening is I put three components in that. So it’s not just about surveys, I think that’s the important point to the listening aspect of this. So listening is about asking, which is surveys, any, you know, feedback, any way that you’re asking your customers for feedback, it’s also listening, which is any way that they prefer to give feedback. So it’s, you know, it’s online reviews, or social media or those kinds of things. And then the third component of it, which I think is really important, is what I call capture. So ask, listen, and capture and capture is all about the breadcrumbs of data that customers leave behind, when they interact and transact with the business and then taking all that both what you know, from the attitudinal to the behavioral and combining it bringing all together, you will have such a great understanding of your customers experience and the expectations and be able to design product services and in the experience that really it meets their needs. So So I think that’s the key is that listening is really about not just the the feedback, but also the other data and combining it.
Gregorio Uglioni 6:05
I think nowadays, it’s everything about data. And and it’s important to, to leverage this data and this information. And now we are already going into the second chapter is it’s all about characterize it means you are speaking and describing personas, perhaps also for the audience. Could it Could you could you please do step back and make for us understandable the difference between segments, buyer persona, and then the personas that we are using in customer experience? Or we should use in customer experience to create this journey map?
Annette Franz 6:43
Yeah, yeah, this is, this is a great topic to talk about. Because I often hear people talking about segments when they’re talking about designing, you know, even when they’re going to do their journey mapping workshops, segments are really, really high level, right? It’s, it’s Imagine taking a look at the world and saying, Okay, we’re going to split up the world into five regions. And that’s those are our segments, or we’re going to look at our you know, customer population, and we’re going to split them up by, you know, by age or by some demographic, right, and that’s going to be the segment that we’re going to focus on. And the one that I like to use is because they do this a lot to talk about this a lot here in the States is around, you know, a prime demographic is men 18 to 49 years old, well, I have a 19 year old son, and I have a boyfriend who’s 52. They, there’s not a lot that they have in common for a lot of different things, and especially not in terms of you know, the problems they’re trying to solve and the their needs and expectations and those kinds of things. So, so to look at look at and try to design an experience at such a high level is really not not useful at all, then buyer personas are what typically what you know, your marketing folks develop to get folks through the through the buyer funnel, right. And that’s really, you know, when when they do the research to develop those personas, it’s pretty high level too. It’s, you know, demographics, its its preferences, it’s why they buy what they buy, you know those kinds of things, right. And it’s very high level as well, it’s not the level of detail that we need for the what I just call it like the CX design personas, no. And those CX personas are probably more in line with what your UX teams do in terms of developing personas, which is you can take those buyer personas, but then you want to add more detail to them. And they’ll probably break apart into into more personas by taking a look at you know, what are your what are their pain points? What are their needs? What are their expectations? What are their preferences? What jobs are they trying to do those kinds of things, and really getting to that level of detail, to get to the persona that you want to use them to design the experience in the beauty of starting with the persona at that level to design the experiences, it’s takes us one step closer to then the next step is personalizing the experience for the individual in front of you. So So yeah, so you want to get down into the, you know, the the what are they doing thinking and feeling, you know, in terms of the persona that we want to develop for designing the experience?
Gregorio Uglioni 9:19
Thank you. And I think this is really key. And also trying to start with with one example that it’s a super easy one. But every company is saying we need an app. And we push out that as quick as possible. And then we have one app with some features that should fit for everybody. And it’s extremely difficult to make understandable for these C levels. That to tell them yes, you have now one app, but now you need to personalize that and to create different journeys for the different personas. Right. What’s your view on that?
Annette Franz 9:58
Yeah, no, absolutely. I agree. You know, I’m thinking in the back of my mind, I just about a week or so ago, did a presentation for some of the executives of, of health clubs gyms around the globe, right. And one of the things that we talked about, obviously, because a lot of the gyms have been closed for last year, a lot of them have been closed for it last year. And so again, same kind of thing, you know, developing an app and it, which is great, that’s, that’s what they’ve had to do. And a lot of them have been able to succeed stay alive because of that. But again, to your point, you know, they’re the needs of, for example, somebody who’s a bodybuilder, are very different from somebody who’s, you know, 55 plus, or they’re, I think that that group is often referred to as a Silver Sneakers or something like that. So they have very different needs. So they have, when they go to use the app, they have different information that they want to see they have different workouts that they want to do, you know, that kind of things. So you really do have to understand your user and put them on a path, even in an app, put them on a path that’s going to meet their needs.
Gregorio Uglioni 11:02
Clear. And I think we are also coming to the to the third chapter of your book, it’s about empathize. And dare, you’re speaking quite a lot about walk in the customer shoes. And I try always to move that on read or rephrase that it’s not only walk in the customer shoes, but it’s feel smell. And and like like the customer. And and they’re then you when you really feel as a customer, the pain that you have going through some journeys or waiting 20 minutes at the phone, or requiring to get a signal to or getting back some requests, because you didn’t feel correct properly. A form it’s extremely important suggestion there. Yeah,
Annette Franz 11:49
you know, it’s, I’ve, this is, this is one of my favorite topics, right? Because I think that journey mapping is probably one of the most powerful tools that you can use when it comes to understanding your customers. And then especially understanding the experience that they’re having today and then redesigning the experience for tomorrow. I always say that they they do so much in terms of informing your customer experience strategy. So powerful tool, powerful process to to do just that I agree with you. It’s it really is about getting into their heads into their hearts really feeling and seeing and smelling and doing what it is that they are doing, right. And that’s why it’s so important when we mount the customer journey that we actually do it with customers. So I’m having, I’m having those conversations with clients every day, no, we’re not going to nap with employees, we’ve got to bring customers in the room because we want to hear what they’re experiencing what they’re seeing and doing and feeling and thinking.
Gregorio Uglioni 12:45
And in the book, you are explaining the process really in a structured way, with all the step all the relevant step, perhaps what I am also seeing in different discussion and different workshops, quite a lot of people are saying, let’s directly go to the to be journey. And then we work on the Tubi journey, because we don’t want to lose time creating the SS journey, improving that and then defining their their roadmap to get to the to be journey, perhaps do you have also there some support that we can use? As seeks professional to explain why it’s so important?
Annette Franz 13:22
Yeah, you know, and I always like to say, you know, you can’t transform something you don’t understand. So first of all, there are you know, in my journey mapping process, there are six steps. And the three key steps are the other three are sort of supporting and really important as well. But the three key workshops that we have are the current state first thing is current state, then the service blueprint, then the future state, and the current state, what really ends up happening when we map the current state first is it allows us to fix you sort of do these tactical fixes today. Because when we go and design the future state, that takes time, that takes a lot of time, right. So it might actually be a year before the experience that you design today as the ultimate or the ideal experience of the future. You’re going to revamp the systems and the processes and the whole, you’re gonna append everything right to design that new experience, most likely. And so if we can take a look at the current state today, and fix what’s going wrong today. And not just tactically but that which is why we need to create the service blueprint so we can fix what’s happening on inside as well. But making changes making those improvements today to technically hold us over until we’re able to design and implement the future state experience. So that’s really why it’s so important to start with the current state because the future state it takes time and your customers may be gone. By the time you get that when implemented. So, so it’s it really is sort of a step by step process there.
Gregorio Uglioni 14:56
The next topic that I would like to discuss Do it’s also quite a lot of people are saying, Okay, let’s work on the on the to be journey, everything designed or you get a mandate to work on the to be journey. And then people start on the interface to the customer. And and then as you mentioned that, but I would like you to take that bit on that it’s, you need also the service blueprint, and also the technological technological piece because if you fix first, the piece, that it’s the interface to the customer, then you don’t get the budgets to fix all the steps that you should really fix. And also there are speaking discussing this topic with the C suite that it’s important to start, for example, digitalising processes from the core to the customer, and not backwards.
Annette Franz 15:42
Yeah, and I think, you know, I’ll answer that question. First, you know, I have, oftentimes have the CEO or, or the some of the executives sitting in on the on the workshops. And if you’re a human being with a heart, and you see what your brand is putting your customers through, there have been so many times where having the CEO in the room has really been so eye opening that the CEO has said right away, yeah, I can’t believe we make our customers go through all of those steps, or we caused so much pain for our customers, we need to fix this. So So I think that’s a, that’s a really important thing to do is to keep those executives involved in the process, so that they can really understand, I think some of them are so high level and so far away from the customer most of the time, right? That they don’t even realize how painful the experiences is for customers. So
Gregorio Uglioni 16:38
I think you’re touching two extremely important topics. And I think these are key success factors. One is the cultural aspect of the customer journey mapping. And the second one is on the leadership, perhaps one step after the other, discussing about the cultural aspect of this, of this process. And of what what we are doing. Also there, what I often see is executive outside that they identify our technology, I want to do something with AI, this is do a project create something for me, and and delight the customer. And, and I think these are also an issue that you’re facing often.
Annette Franz 17:22
Yeah, you know, here’s, here’s what I say to the latter point about technology, right? You can’t just throw technology at this and say we did CX, right, but it just doesn’t work that way. You know, technology really is a tool that enables and facilitates the experience that the customer is having the experience is very much human. And the experience is very much emotional, you know, and technology and saying that, okay, well, we just threw some technology at it. So the experience is fine, is not the right way to go about it. Absolutely not. It’s, you know, again, it will help to facilitate the experience, but it is not the experience, because the experience, like I said, is very much human. You’re your point about culture is really important, too. Because when people come to me and want to do these journey mapping workshops, I often ask well, do you even have the foundation in place to go and do something with what you’ve learned, right? Because if you don’t, then you’ll probably be spinning your wheels, and you will absolutely 110% need to get your CEO into those workshops so that he or she can understand the experience that the customer is having today. And to understand why this culture is so important. So culture is really the foundation of all of it, right? Because if you have this customer centric culture in place, the things that you’ve learned from whether it’s Listen, characterize and empathize are automatically going to be used and incorporated into everything that the business does all the discussions, all the decisions, all the designs, like I like to say, and it’ll be incorporated into that, and the customer will be at the center of all of that. And, you know, it just makes everything easier when, when the that culture is already in place.
Gregorio Uglioni 19:03
Sure. And I think what you’re mentioning, and you mentioned that several times, it’s about having the CEO sitting in this discussion being part of this discussion. And I think this is something that for us six professionals, it’s always difficult to get the involvement of the top management, perhaps do we have some secret ingredients or secret hints that that we can leverage?
Annette Franz 19:28
Well, you know, here’s, here’s the thing with the with the CEO and the executives, right, so first of all, we have to appeal to both sides of their brains, right? So we have to appeal to the analytical side, and we have to appeal to the emotional side. And with the analytical side, it’s all about numbers. It is all about the ROI and building the business case and showing. If we do this, here’s how it will impact the business you know. So that side is all about the data and having that data in place. The other side the emotional side is you know, the Like I just said, having them in the journey mapping workshops and allowing them to see, you know, like I said, anybody with a heart is gonna, is gonna say, Wow, I don’t believe I don’t believe we put our customers through so much pain, you know, telling customer stories, bringing customer stories in, and really helping them understand the customer emotion that goes into this experience having a you know, an immersion program where the executives go out and they sit with customers as they are using the products or experiencing the services or whatever. Then another thing that I like to do too, is to tie the experience work to perhaps some project or passion project that the executive might have. So what legacy do they want to leave with the organization? How did they want to? How do they how do they want to be remembered, you know, as they leave the organization or leave this world, you know, is, is what do you what do you want that to be? And so if you can make that connection with your employer, with your executives as well, I think that’s an important way to get that that commitment and involvement from them.
Gregorio Uglioni 21:05
Thank you very much. I think these are these are really key topics. And perhaps, based on the fact that I have you on the show, I need to ask also this question. We spoke about processes, we spoke about customer, and I would like to spend the next five minutes also on the employees, I was already participating to several workshops to several webinars where we were discussing about employee experience. And you have really a nice pyramid where you’re explaining the importance of the inputs, perhaps also some insights why it’s important to involve also employees in this journey metric.
Annette Franz 21:44
Yeah, to involve them in the journey mapping is is key, right? Because and one of the things that I say when when I two things, I’ll come back to the service blueprint, but the other thing that I say about when they’re involved in the journey maps is to not just involve the people who are so for example, if you’re I always like to use this example, if you’re mapping the customer experience as they’re trying to get support, you know, call calling in or emailing whatever with with your contact center. You don’t want to just have in that workshop, you don’t want to just have folks from the customer service department, right? You want to have people from marketing from sales from the product, you know, product design from Product Marketing, because sale sold the dream marketing’s messaging was off the product design was faulty, the you know, documentation or the information about the product was inaccurate or whatever it was, you know, something caused the customer to ultimately get in touch with your service department and customer service department to get help with something or they have to answer a question. So if we bring in employees from other departments that are sort of tangentially involved in that, in that journey, they get to hear the pain that the customer is having. And then things get fixed upstream. And what ends up happening is if marketing, sales, product, product marketing, get everything right, then that ultimately should reduce the volume on your contact center as well. So that’s pretty key there. So so there’s that. So I think that’s important. The second thing that I want to mention about employees is that a lot of times you know that a lot of people think that the employee, the employee experience, customer experience, connection happens on the frontline. And it doesn’t just happen at the frontline. Yes, frontline are critical because they’re face to face, or they’re on the phones speaking directly with your customers. But your back office employees are also really important to the customer experience. And what one of the best ways that we can make that connection for them is to do that service blueprint. Because the service blueprint, you know, shows, you know, the people, the tools, the systems, the processes, the policies, the things that are behind the scenes that are again, supporting and facilitating the experience that the customer is having. And what gets you know, from that map from that blueprint, what employees can see is how they’re connected to the customer’s experience. And they get to call out where their experiences broken down as well. Because if the policies are outdated, or if the processes are broken, or if they don’t have the tools or the right tools or outdated tools, then of course, they can’t deliver the experience that that customers deserve. And their experience is pretty rough too. Because they don’t have the things that they need to do their jobs and to do them well.
Gregorio Uglioni 24:28
I think this is an outstanding answer and what you’re saying it’s what customer deserve. And this is really the key. And I would like to close this first part of the discussion with one sentence out of your book. It’s not pre aligned, but you mentioned then the letter to the CEO. And at the end, it’s the letter to the CEO, it’s an ad writing to the CEO. And it said, if you need a little reality check, pause for a moment and imagine your business with no customers and I think this is, this is really key. And it’s a sentence that I remember. And I also try to give to the older people, because this is really the essence of customer experience
Annette Franz 25:12
It is the essence. Absolutely, absolutely great point.
Gregorio Uglioni 25:15
This second part, it’s a shorter one. But for me, it’s extremely important because at the end, we are in a human to human business. And therefore, we would like to learn a bit more about you. And you’re really successful. You wrote the book, you have your own consulting firm, and how can you ensure to have a satisfactory life work balance?
Annette Franz 25:35
Well, I’m gonna ask you the same thing, because I would like to know, you know what, here’s the interesting thing. I think with with everything that happened in the last year with the pandemic, and the lockdown and everything, I think it really forced, I would say us, but it really forced me to have a better work life balance, you know, I have, I have two kids, I have a 16 year old and a 19 year old, two boys. And, you know, they’re everything to me. And, you know, I can’t just sit here and work all day long, you know, I need to, I need to step away and take care of them and their needs and feed them and you know, but, you know, they really do help help to bring that balance into my life, because I want to spend time with them. Right. So, you know, I, but I always start my day with working out, I think, for me, that’s a good way to really, you know, clear your head, think about what the day is going to look like. And just, it’s, it’s my sanity is what I say. So, you know, and, and, you know, a new thing that I’ve incorporated into my life is about once a month is just to take some time off, take a long, long weekend, whether it’s three days or four days, and just step away from it all. And when I come back, I’m a lot more refreshed and ready to go. So because it’s, you know, a it’s been unpredictable, it’s been a little crazy. So. So that’s those are some of the things that I’ve incorporated into my life just to try to have a little bit more work life balance.
Gregorio Uglioni 27:06
I’m not going to answer the question that you asked me because it’s 10pm. And exactly. This was the question, too. And the next question is for sure. I will publish also the link to your book, is there a book that that you are reading, or that you say this book, it’s it’s what’s really important in my career?
Annette Franz 27:32
You know, there’s a book that I and it’s I don’t know that it’s necessarily my career, but it certainly reinforces a lot of the things that I believe in, it’s a book by how Rosenthal is called the customer comes second. And that’s not that’s not intuitive to people. But basically, what he says is that the employee comes the customer, the customer comes first, really, but the employee comes more first, right? So really, it’s the employee. So it’s that whole connection between the employee experience and customer experience. And it’s such a powerful book, because he gives examples that are just, and he tells you how to do it. I mean, the company wrote Rosenbluth International. I mean, they’re a huge travel, travel business, right? They’ve been around for many, many, many, many, many years. He wrote the book in 1990, I believe it was. And it’s funny, because the way that he talks about technology and how they use technology, of course, it was different. It was IBM mainframes. It was fax machines, it was different technology. But it’s it’s basically the same conversation and how we talk about technology today, 30 years later, you know, so it’s pretty crazy, but great book, because like I said, it’s so true, the employee, customer connection is real. And he gives some really great examples and tells you how to do it to make sure that the employee really is more first.
Gregorio Uglioni 28:53
Thank you very much. And the second last question, it’s the usual one, if somebody would like to contact you, what’s the best way to contact you?
Annette Franz 29:02
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that through my website, CX – journey.com Or on LinkedIn, I’m always happy to connect with folks on LinkedIn.
Gregorio Uglioni 29:11
And you have an outstanding newsletter. This is really great insights. And therefore, please also apply to get the newsletter. And this is my very last question. And this is about the your golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something that we didn’t discuss, but you would leave to the to the audience.
Annette Franz 29:32
Yeah, I think I think I’ll say two things. The first one is, is that culture really is the foundation of everything that you’re doing, right. So make sure that you do the things that you need to do to ensure that your business is you know, it is a customer centric culture. And really what that means is that it starts from the top right, the CEO, it’s deliberately designed to be that way that culture is deliberately designed to be that way and the CEO has committed to putting the customers best interests into everything that the business does, so that I think that’s the first thing. The second thing really is about the employee customer connection. Take care of your employees, and they will take care of the customers. And ultimately, that means they’ll take be taken care of the business as well. So
Gregorio Uglioni 30:16
thank you for this two golden nuggets. I’m not commenting them because these are Annette gold nuggets. The last thing that I wanted to say is Annette, thank you very much. It was really a big pleasure to have you on on my show. Yeah, absolutely. Thank
Annette Franz 30:29
you so much for having me. You know, it’s, this is a conversation, like I said, you and I can have for a long, long time, many many days, but thanks for wrapping it up in a nice little nugget in 30 or 35 minutes.
Gregorio Uglioni 30:44
And also to the audience. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation as much as I enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Bye bye. Arrivederci Grazie mille.
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