(Replay) Platforms and their implications on business with Anna Noakes Schulze – E23

Episode released on: 24. May 2021

CX Goalkeeper with Anna Noakes Schulze S1E23 is about Platforms and their implications on business and CX Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Anna Noakes Schulze

LinkedIn Headline: UX/CX Strategist | Keynote Speaker | Bestselling CX Author | Top CX Influencer for 2022 | Digital Platform & Ecosystem CX

My learnings:

Platforms will change how business works as it is a different way of doing business.

  • The comparison between pipeline businesses and platform businesses makes it quite clear.
  • A pipeline business has a linear value chain (i.e., one flow from the company to the customers)
  • Platform businesses offer the infrastructure as they control the access to the value creation chain.
  • The value itself is created by the participants (sellers and buyers). Both are contributing to the value creation. Increasing the traffic creates more value for the participants (e.g., the Amazon flywheel clearly shows the network effect)
  • The telephone is a good example. If only 2-3 people would be connected via phone the value of the platform “phone” would be really low, however, if the whole world would be connected the value would be immense (as it is).
  • Investors value platform businesses with higher multiples then pipeline businesses.

Three key implications on CX: value, usability and trust

  • Value: It is created by the interactions within the community and by the power of involved community.
  • BlaBlaCar in France which matches riders and drivers, is a great example. During the pandemic they created a new App within 10 days to help people who were not able to leave their houses. The community volunteered to pick up grocery, medicines etc. for the community and bringing them the to the houses of other community members in need.
  • Usability is important also in platform businesses: Finding partners easily, ensuring frictionless experiences and making possible to quickly interact.
  • Trust is the third key component. All the participants need to trust themselves in the ecosystem.

Her book suggestion:

  • Convenience revolution by S. Hyken
  • Outside In by K. Bodine and H. Manning
  • The Platform Revolution by G. Parker, M. Van Alstyne and S. Choudary

Anna’s Golden Nugget:

Start thinking about platform businesses and try to find out more about them. Find out how to improve platforms for the better from a customer and a partner experience perspective.

Start thinking about platform businesses and try to find out more about them. Find out how to improve platforms for the better from a customer and a partner experience perspective. Anna Noakes Schulze on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

How to contact Anna:

Thank you, Anna!

#customerexperience #leadership #platforms #cxgoalkeeper

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:02
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the next session of the CX goalkeeper Podcast. Today. I have Anna with me. Hi Anna.

Anna Noakes Schulze 0:12
Hi, how are you?

Gregorio Uglioni 0:13
Good. Thank you. And thank you very much Anna to be here for this discussion. I am really thrilled because I was able to follow your presentation at a CX summit 2021. And for me, it was really mind blowing what you discuss what you presented. But before we go into the topic, let’s perform a short introduction. Anna, could you introduce please yourself?

Anna Noakes Schulze 0:36
My pleasure. I’m originally from Canada, and ended up moving to the United States for my master’s degree, specializing in user experience design. So I a CXer with a UX background. I ended up getting married to a man in the car industry, and we moved all around the world. So first, we went to England where two sons were born, then it was back to the US for a year, then Thailand for three years than Ireland for two years. And now we’ve been in Germany for 12 years. And I’ve worked mainly with UX design agencies in London, first with the agencies and then as an independent consultant. And I found as the world grew more digital, that it made sense to me to focus more on customer experience rather than user experience. And people often ask me, Well, you know, what’s what’s, what’s the big difference and user experience is about digital artifacts. And a lot of customer experience is happening through digital interfaces now. So what’s what’s the difference, really. And what I tell them and why CX is, for me, a more interesting problem is that UX is concerned with optimizing digital artifacts in themselves. But with customer experience, you’re actually popping up a level. And you’re interested in optimizing the way that these digital artifacts mediate the relationship with the customer. So customer experience is more about people and processes, and mediating relationships. And it’s not the the the pure design elements in for their own sake. So for me, CX simply became a more interesting problem for me as I went through my career. And an important thing to note is that if you are a UX designer, within a few short years, nothing that you’ve ever created, still exists, it simply doesn’t. websites get replaced, apps get updated, personas change, and then you don’t really have any, you know, lasting artifacts from what you’ve done. But I always felt with CX every time that we’re influencing people, and how things are done. And influencing colleagues and peers and customers, were creating ripples in this world that spread out, and may have a long lasting impact, even if we don’t see it right in front of us. So for me, CX is the most wonderful area to be working in. And, and I find that CXOs in general, are really kind of warm hearted and cooperative people very connection friendly, very supportive. And it’s very, very rare to find someone who isn’t like that in CX. And so I just, I just love the people who are involved in CX, and I love being part of this kind of work. So really, this is like the best possible career I can imagine. You know. And finally, I think, what I love about it, as well as the diversity, there’s such an interesting range of backgrounds, from people who are involved in CX, whether it’s marketing, or UX, or operations, or some people are purely from customer service. They come from all kinds of different backgrounds. And in every environment that I’ve been, whether it was school, or work, it was the diversity of people’s backgrounds that led to peak creativity. And so I’m really, I’m always excited about what we can accomplish together with our different backgrounds.

Gregorio Uglioni 4:20
Thank you, Anna, for the great introduction. It’s really interesting. And I think it’s what I want also to mention, you were my first chair of judges at the international customer experience last year.

Anna Noakes Schulze 4:33
That’s why right,

Gregorio Uglioni 4:35
And now I’m really happy to have you on my podcast. As I said, for me what’s really, really interesting to follow you during the CX summit because you were speaking about the difference between pipeline business and platform businesses and you were explaining and deep down deep down a deep diving in in the in the platform business. I would like to start this discussion and for for the audience. So could you please explain the difference between these two types of businesses?

Anna Noakes Schulze 5:05
Well, well, first, I’m going to have to almost go back a little bit and finish my introduction, because I didn’t quite make it up to the present in my enthusiasm. But um, about a year and a half ago, I met a local entrepreneur in Dusseldorf, working in that building right there in Dusseldorf. And he was the CEO of a digital business and platform consultancy, called Eco dynamics. And we met and ended up speaking for something like four hours the first time we met. And we had so many interests in common in terms of digital business, and the customer, and digital transformation. And all of the interesting issues that business face now in the in the digital business world. And we shared a lot of concerns about how, in some ways, because the German culture is more careful and conservative that we in some ways we’re falling behind, you know, and so we both found that we had a great interest in platforms, and that we felt that it was the future of business. And also, very importantly, in terms of you and me and things that we care about, it’s all about value creation for the customer. And that’s something that comes out in your chapter, as well as mine, even though they’re in completely different areas, you’re talking about customer service, and finding ways to leverage customer service for value creation. And I’m talking about different business models and how these new and strange business models can be leveraged for value creation, for all sides on the platform, the customer side, the partner side, everyone who’s involved in that. So for me, this was tremendously exciting. And I could see for myself that platforms had kind of taken over our world over the last 20 years. And it’s I can, I can remember the exact day, when for the first time, I ordered my textbooks on Amazon, instead of standing in line for hours at the campus bookstore, which is the way it was done before, you know, and that was this life changing moment that Amazon came on, came online, provided our textbooks and pretty soon started providing everything else. And so so this phenomenon has been creeping up on us, we’re using TripAdvisor and Uber, and we’re on YouTube, and we’re ordering stuff on Amazon. And all of this is going on. And it’s so much like the the oxygen in the air we breathe, we almost don’t even notice it. And that’s that’s what I feel is happening in CX is that we’re so used to platforms as consumers, that we don’t even realize this is fundamentally changing how business works. So in terms of pipelines versus platforms, you asked me to differentiate those two a little bit. And a pipeline is a classic linear value chain business, which is the, you know, it’s been around forever and dominated the 20th century, the whole industrial area era and post industrial era was dominated byvalue creation, within a company structure where employees deliver products and services along a linear value chain. So it’s all one way flow from the company through the employees, sales, marketing, distribution. And finally, to be the end consumer or customer, if it’s b2b. It’s always one way. And everything we know about customer experience has been about optimizing that linear value chain. That’s why marketing is so important, for example, in terms of mediating the customer relationship. But then these platforms come around long, and they do something completely different. Where instead of, instead of owning and controlling resources, you’re controlling access to resources. And the value creation isn’t just what your company is doing. It’s what the participants on the platform are doing. So if you imagine there’s a there’s a platform, and there’s customers and partners, if it’s a two sided platform, for example. So think about Amazon, our classic example. Amazon started out as just an online marketplace for their own products. So Amazon was selling we were buying, then they started bringing in partners and competitors who also sell their products. So now it’s you’ve got a selling side and you have a buying side. This is two sided, and both sides are contributing to the value that exists there in Amazon. It’s not just Amazon in their products, and it’s not just Amazon and their partners in their products. It’s the fact that all of those products there brings traffic and all of those customers who are creating traffic on that website. attract more buyers. And then or sorry, more sellers. And then the sellers have more goods that attract more buyers. So the partner sides benefiting from all the traffic, and the customer sides benefiting from all of these products that are available on Amazon. And that’s called the Amazon flywheel it like it builds and builds and builds. And in platform terms, we talk about network effects. So each new when each new user to the platform increases the value to the others that are already there. That is, that is a positive network effect. So for example, LinkedIn wasn’t very important, when only the first 1000 people were on it. But when millions of people are on it, then it has high value for everybody. And the same with a telephone system. It’s one of the earliest networks that we had, you know, if it was just two or three people in your town who were connected, it wasn’t nearly as valuable as when the whole world is connected. So that’s, that’s the important thing. And the with these platform businesses, they’re able to grow exponentially without exponential increase in cost, because each new user adds negligible marginal costs to it. So it’s quite a, you know, it’s quite a different way of doing business. And in a traditional pipeline business, if you want to increase the volume of business you do, you have to add employees, you have to add more resources and material. And so you get more of a linear monotone growth, not the kind of wild exponential growth that you sometimes see in platforms. And believe me, investors notice that too. So the way that they value platforms is that a much higher multiple than a traditional pipeline business, because they see that potential for exponential growth. So that’s sort of a basic description of the difference between them. It’s sort of the Amazon flywheel versus, you know, a regular online store.

Gregorio Uglioni 11:58
I think this is a great explanation. And it’s really, really understandable. And if you start thinking about it, then you’ll see really big shifts from platform business, to this to this story from pipeline businesses to this platform businesses. And I think you should also one slide that was really, really interesting. And it was, how are growing this platform businesses in us, in Asia and in Europe? Can you please comment a bit on that?

Anna Noakes Schulze 12:29
Oh, in terms of volume of platform businesses, yes. Yeah, this is really interesting. They’re basically two big centers of platform innovation in the world right now. And one of them is centered on the US. And the other one is centered on Asia, primarily China. And here in Europe, we have, you know, we have platform startups, we have, you know, established platform businesses, but in much, much smaller volumes than the US or China. And I think people have to realize it’s not necessarily that we lack innovation in Europe. It’s that in part, because we have, let me say, somewhat more robust regulatory frameworks. And we tend to expect our platforms to perform in a way that’s going to be consistent with our social democratic values. You know, and that’s an important thing that people have to realize is that platforms are not free of ideology. They have an ideology built right into them in terms of how they work and what kind of behavior they allow, and what kind of functions they allow. So I think here in Europe, were a simply a little bit more careful

about exploring this space. But I think it is important that we do have a platform business culture here in Europe that’s, you know, consistent with our goals and values, and also consistent with public good as well, because that’s a side of it that has really, I can’t speak too much for China, because I’m not as you know, I don’t have boots on the ground there to see how they’re working. We know that China has more of an authoritarian framework, which might have some pluses or minuses. I think in the United States, you see more of a neoliberal framework behind the platforms. But then comes a certain criticism about platforms abusing their powers, because they’re maybe not as regulated as they should be, or that the regulatory framework needs to, to catch up. And you know, that’s why we find situations like Uber being sued to recognize that that drivers are employees and it was a lot of concern. I think a great question somebody asked me at the CX Summit is are they abusing their power? And you know, I I didn’t want to get too into that, because I know there are people who specialize in exactly that subject. But it is a question that you have to ask. And you do have to be aware that whoever is the platform owner has all the power because they have all the data. So look at the example of Amazon, for example, selling their goods, but also selling their customers goods, and they have all the sales data on all of that, you could argue that that’s a situation of unfair competition, when Amazon markets, their own products against the competitors on their own website, you know, and then maybe the partners have to accept, well, I’m a little bit at a disadvantage when I sell on Amazon’s platform. But look at this, look at the size of this, this market that I have access to, you know, so there are trade offs there. But I think when I, the thing that I’m especially interested in is actually not so much to e commerce platforms, but the sharing economy platforms and online networks that have been established, because I’m very, very interested in digital trust. And trust is one of trust greases the wheels in the platform environment, because that’s what allows people to interact, and exchange value with confidence. So there has to be certain amount of trust between the participants. And there also has to be a certain amount of trust between the participants and the platform itself. So look at a social media platform like Twitter, and you’ll notice it’s about 70%. Male. And that is not an accident. That’s that’s an issue of governance on the platform. And the it reflects the extent to which many women, certainly minorities, or other marginalized groups feel that they are poorly treated and not protected from, from hostile behavior, on Twitter, and so it skews the gender ratio. So that’s a direct consequence of governance, and even Twitter have admitted they didn’t get proper rules in place at the beginning. And now it’s so big, it’s, it’s quite difficult for them to, to manage. So that’s something I’m very, very interested in. Because the key thing that you need to know about platforms is that everything, everything about the health of the platform is keyed to interactions and exchange of value, whatever that value unit is. So Uber needs drivers and riders, and they need to be able to connect and they be need to be able to transact together. And and so that’s, that’s a trust issue. But the Trust has come up in so many other different environments, even on Amazon, if you buy goods from a third party seller, and they turn out not to be as described, or the quality’s not as described, or they’re fake reviews, that erodes your trust in the platform overall. You know, so I’ve always kind of wondered, because that issue has come up so many times over so many years, whether Amazon finds that unacceptable, unacceptable. I don’t know, external negative externality, or whether they’re simply deciding that if third party sellers are unreliable in some way, does that make Amazon’s own products look a bit better? So I’ve never really figured out what their strategy is there. But the long and the short of it is trust greases, the wheels, and everything to do with platform health depends on the interactions. And then you know, that gets into a whole other topic. I don’t know, if you want to get into metrics. There are different metrics for platform businesses as well.

Gregorio Uglioni 18:40
Not yet I think, I really liked this explanation. And it was a longer explanation. But it really adds to understand the difference is because most of the people are really focused on let’s say, I name that now old fashioned business. It’s the pipeline business. And now this is this mind shift in direction of platforms, that you have different actors and different interaction. You mentioned relationship. You mentioned trust, you mentioned differences. Perhaps Could you elaborate on a bit more on what are the implication for customer experience? Because it’s a complete different business business setup? And therefore there are for sure implications on customer experience.

Anna Noakes Schulze 19:24
Yeah, I think the the main issue for me is what are we going to what are we going to take from traditional customer experience that can add value in a platform environment? And and when I reviewed the literature of platforms, you know, looking for any clues, anything anytime they discussed, the customer or the two sides of a two sided platform, or how the interactions work, I looked for clues and hints about what makes CX work in that environment. And that’s how I developed my three keys to customer experience for platform businesses as you as you know, from from the talk, and also from my book chapter, and they were value usability and trust and trust, we’ve talked on talked about a little bit already. Usability, I think it just goes without saying in any digital environment, how important usability is a customers and partners in case of a two sided platform, they have to be able to, to exchange value in a way that is relatively easy, friction free, it has to be convenient, it has to be easy to get around the site, all of these sort of traditional usability heuristics are applicable in a digital platform environment. And then that brings us to the third issue, which was value. And, you know, and I know that you’re just as interested in that as I am, because I remember from your chapter in CX three, you were talking about the value irritant matrix, which I thought was really cool, because that was a VP of Amazon, Bob price, wasn’t it? Yeah, who had come up with that.

And it was a way of prioritizing customer experience issues that were as either high or low value for either the company itself or for, for the customer. And you gave some fantastic examples of using customer service to leverage more value for the customer. So that was an issue and, and in the platform environment, it’s the interactions that allow that exchange of value that are so crucial. And generally, platforms start with one simple core interaction, there’s one thing that it wants to achieve. So take ride sharing platform, blah, blah, car from France, which is a really nice example of good governance, really good digital trust, and doing public good as well. So blahblah car originally started with just matching up riders and drivers for for some kind of ride sharing function, I think it was city to city at first. But eventually, they found that because they had emphasized good governance on the platform, and strong pillars of digital trust, there was enough of a community feel on this platform that it went beyond just transactions. And so when COVID hit, they were able to ingest things in like 10 days or something, they were able to launch a new app called blah, blah, help. And that was us, tapping their community to help others in need people who were either quarantined or stuck at home because of health issues, or were vulnerable and couldn’t leave. And members of the blahblah community actually volunteered to drive around picking up their groceries and bringing to them bringing, picking up prescriptions, and bringing prescription medicine to people. And I thought it was such a great example of the power of platforms done right to actually build community and build bonds between people and then leverage that for social good as well. Yeah, I this, this is a great example of why I’m excited by platforms, I know that a lot of people have concerns about how much power they have. Because of that, that exponential growth they become often it’s winner take all or winner take most is a reasonable way to put that. So we worry about concentrating too much power in the hands of platforms. But then you look at example like blahblah car, tremendous power to to mobilize a whole community and to build bonds with people. And the riders and drivers say I I’ve met such interesting people I’ve gotten to know people. Now, obviously not as much of that going on right now in COVID times. But I looked at I looked at the founders TEDx talk about using platforms to build communities. I read every article I could find about them. And I really started to feel that there are many examples in the sharing economy, especially that really leveraged trust and digital communities and doing public good. And it’s all on the backbone of good governance. So just just the fact that we see platforms now. And then maybe some of the American examples we see we think all they’re really successful as a business, but I don’t necessarily like what they’re doing to communities or how they’re they’re, they’re treating people who are de facto workers. And those are those are governance and regulation issues. And they’re wrestling that with that in the US just like here, believe me. And often platforms actually get ahead of the regulation. So it’s a bit of a wild west in that respect. And there’ll be And then examples I’ve cited in presentations, where people came to me later and said, Do you realize that platform is kind of exploiting a lock, in effect, making it difficult for them to change to another platform? You know, and I do realize that but I, I, what I choose to focus on is the potential for good that I see there because it is it is tremendous, and it’s world changing. And to me, that’s something to really get excited about.

Gregorio Uglioni 25:27
And I think this is really an important thing that you’re seeing that content potential for good. And you spoke quite a lot of community about communities, and the nowadays, CX community would like to learn a bit more about Anna, because you are author of the CX three book, you are working quite a lot, you are an expert in this topic, you were the chair of judge at the international customer experience, what? How can you ensure to have a proper life work balance?

Anna Noakes Schulze 25:57
Well, you know, I’m a, I’m a really interesting case study in that regard, because for a long time, I didn’t find it possible at all, to have any kind of reasonable work life balance. And part of the reason was that I have two boys with special needs in the area of what we call invisible disabilities, where there’s ADHD, and there’s autism spectrum on the scene. And and, you know, I didn’t I didn’t have any other children besides these two. So for me, however, they were was just normal. And then you start getting into the school system. And suddenly, you’re getting all kinds of feedback that this isn’t right. And that isn’t right. And could you talk to your son about this, he’s doing this thing that he’s not supposed to do. And for me, it was really complicated by the fact that we were doing all of this in a foreign country, in a foreign language, far from home, I didn’t even know any German when we came to Germany. So there was all of in addition to all of this having to settle into a new culture and learn a new language that was compounded by all these concerns about my boys. And in this country, a child’s fate in terms of their eligibility to go to university is pretty much decided in the fourth class. So while they’re still very young, not even 10 years old, their future is being decided. And we felt tremendous pressure when we came here to try somehow to get them as ready as possible that they could get that recommendation for give nauseum, which is academic high school starting in the fifth class, so that they would have the option to go to university later. And we did that. But there were many, many bumps in the road, there were extremely challenging times where there were issues. So pressing, that I once had 90 Child related appointments in a six month period. And every one of these, of course, is in German has to be researched. And I have to plan out that they’re gonna go off script anyway. And it was just so hard, so relentlessly hard for 10 years, I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel now, because my older son is studying at university and my younger son is almost finished secondary school. But when, if you want to have a family with two careers, you really need children, whose lives run like the Swiss rail system, basically, everything needs to be on track. And if it’s not working like that, then something has to give. And in my case, I had to change any idea that I had about having a conventional career and be more of an independent consultant because I had to fit whatever I do into the framework of this, this family life, it’s inescapable mean, you have to make it all work together. And in the end, I feel like I was able to do that, but only because I have the freedom to work as and when works for me. And I love the fact that in CX, you can do that, you know, maybe it’s harder if you’re in a if you’re in a big company, and you have fixed hours. And you know, before COVID We had to be at the office as well, you couldn’t just leave because some emergency meeting has been called or something. But you could also be part of a consulting firm, you can be a freelancer, you could be an influencer of some sort. There’s so many different ways to contribute to CX that are non traditional paths. And for myself, and I think for all for a lot of women, especially women with young children. It is they need that kind of flexibility. And so I hope I know you You’re with a big company, you’re you have been with big companies, and many people are and I hope people will think about, are there ways that we can make working conditions more flexible, so that people with different circumstances can continue to participate, because, you know, we all have contributions to make. But we can’t necessarily all do them in a standard 40 or 60 hour week package.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:26
Exactly. And I think this is this is really in an important point, to make possible to people to work and to give their input insights on the different on the different topics. And I always, I’m always delighted to see how much power mothers F in order to support the children to grow up in a proper way to have all the opportunities open, and additionally to work and additionally to ensure this and that, and that, and therefore my my full respect for what you said, Thank you for sharing the story. It’s really, really, really interesting. Thank you very much. It’s really a nice story. And it’s the reality because if you watch television, then you always see the perfect family, father, mother and two children. But the reality it’s a bit different. And I think thank you for for sharing this story. It’s my pleasure. And then this the next question, I would like to ask you, and it’s do you have a book that you would suggest to the audience that you say this book is, it’s really a great one you can have a look at, for sure. We are both authors of customer experience three, therefore, this is our first to test. And then let’s go to the second suggestion that you would have,

Anna Noakes Schulze 31:51
oh, you know, there’s so many, so many good books, you know, on the CX side. I absolutely love convenience Revolution by Shep Hyken, because that’s the one that made it absolutely clear to me. And it’s still crystal clear now, post COVID, especially so that what customers really want is for you to make things easy. And I found that to be equally true in in b2c as b2b. In fact, I gave a talk to DB Schenker earlier this week. It was their internal getting inspired event for 72,000 employees. And I talked to them about the importance of customer centricity in the logistics business. And that was really interesting, because I was able to give them the example of DHL freights CX redesign a few years ago, which was widely recorded in my customer and a few other places, and how they had felt that road freight and had become a commodities business, which in commodities are brutal to be in, if the only thing that matters is getting the lowest price. But when they actually got closer to their customers, and surveyed them to understand better what they needed and wanted, the number one thing on their wish list was just be easier to work with. And so it made them realize that even though road freight was behaving like a commodities business, it actually wasn’t. And they had multiple they, they dove down deeper, of course, into what they meant by be easier to work with. But the idea was, the only reason it was a commodities business in the eyes of the customer is that the providers hadn’t done enough to differentiate themselves on experience, and the offerings and the the survey and the work that they did revealed all of these different ways that they could set themselves apart from competition. So I always feel like being in a commodities business or even, you know, at the very low end of a business, like the ultra low cost carriers, we talk about that sometimes. That’s a very tough business to be in. But it doesn’t necessarily mean experience doesn’t matter. And actually, I think there’s a case to be made in the case of ultra low cost carriers like Ryanair, that it’s because the normal middle of the road carriers didn’t differentiate themselves that it created an opening for low cost, because people thought, well, I’m going to have a terrible experience flying, I might as well pay the lowest price.

Gregorio Uglioni 34:20
I think we already have a topic for one of the next discussion. But let’s let’s go back to this one. And the second last question is if somebody would contact you to deep dive about this, this platform business, what’s the worries? What is the best way to contact you?

Anna Noakes Schulze 34:38
Oh, well, yeah, contact me on LinkedIn for sure. I have I respond to my messages there. I have email there. And just on a final note, because we were talking about book recommendations as well, I talked about inside it outside in and I also talked about convenience revolution. So Look outside. And I think that was Karry Bodine. And

Gregorio Uglioni 35:03
yes, correct Harley Manning,

Anna Noakes Schulze 35:05
right. And then convenience revolution was Shep Hyken. But if you were interested in platforms, if you want a really readable book that conveys just how significant this is, then definitely pick up a copy of the platform revolution, because that is the gold standard, I think, in this space. And so full of amazing examples that tell you how platforms work and why they’re so important. I think that’s, that’s a great piece of work. And I think there’s even there might even be an updated edition coming, I think it was 2016. And there’s like a five year anniversary updated edition of that. But I would really, I really want to encourage all CX people, to learn more about platforms and start thinking about what we can do to be to contribute more in that space. I mean, I don’t want to be the only one. It’s a lonely one is a lonely number. So so please, please join me find out about platforms. And let’s start talking about what we can do to improve platforms for the better from a customer or partner experience perspective.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:16
Thank you very much. And you already picked up my last question, even if I didn’t ask that. Because my last question, it’s always about your golden nugget, Anna’s Golden nugget, something that you already mentioned, or something new. But you already answered this question greatly. Thank you very much. And the last thing to say is thank you very much for your time, and it was a great pleasure.

Anna Noakes Schulze 36:38
Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s a real pleasure talking to you today.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:42
And also to the audience. Thank you very much for being here for listening to the podcast to watching the video. It was a great pleasure and I hope that you enjoyed the discussion as much as I enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Bye bye Arrivederci, grazie mille.

Anna Noakes Schulze 36:57
Bye, everybody.

 ⚽️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ The CX Goalkeeper Podcast ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⚽️ 

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