Episode released on: 13. June 2022
Digital Customer Service with Rick DeLisi – Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper
The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Rick DeLisi
LinkedIn Headline: Co-Author of “Digital Customer Service: Transforming Customer Experience for an On-Screen World” and “The Effortless Experience”
Highlights:
- 00:00 Game Start
- 00:56 Rick’s Introduction
- 02:13 The Effortless Experience & experience engineering
- 06:40 Rick’s Values
- 08:10 The weakness of book “the effortless experience”
- 11:40 Automation, Collaboration & Communication
- 16:05 The importance of talking to a customer service agent
- 20:40 The combination of technology and psychology
- 21:42: The evolution of customer service
- 23:40 what we are going to discuss in 10 years time about CX
- 25:19 Is the effortless experience the perfect one?
- 27:57 The Digital Customer Service Book
- 28:40 Rick’s Contact Details
- 29:27 Rick’s Book Suggestion
- 31:20 Rick’s Golden Nugget
… and much more
Selected Quotes:
To me, loyalty isn’t really about you. Loyalty isn’t really about your company. Loyalty isn’t really about your product. And to some extent, loyalty isn’t really about the experience, people have. Really, I thought that’s everything loyalty was all about. Well, what I’ve been learning is that loyalty is much more of a reflection of that individual person, and how they feel about themselves.
Guest’s Contact Details:
The Digital Customer Service:
His book suggestion:
- The Ultimate Question, Fred Reichheld
Rick’s Golden Nuggets:
- “When a person encounters a product, a service, a brand, or an experience, that makes them feel smarter and better about themselves, that’s where loyalty comes from.”
- “stop trying so hard to get people to say how great you are, and instead create every opportunity to enable and reinforce a person’s sense of self worth, and self value based on their decision to do business with you.”
“When a person encounters a product, a service, a brand, or an experience, that makes them feel smarter and better about themselves, that’s where loyalty comes from.” @rickdelisi on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast
Tweet
“stop trying so hard to get people to say how great you are, and instead create every opportunity to enable and reinforce a person’s sense of self worth, and self value based on their decision to do business with you.” @rickdelisi on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast
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#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast
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Transcription:
Gregorio Uglioni 0:02
Ladies and gentleman tonight, it’s really a big, big pleasure. I have Rick DeLisi with me on the podcast, Hi Rick, how are you?
Rick DeLisi 0:12
hello there greetings from the US.
Gregorio Uglioni 0:15
Everything fine on your side?
Rick DeLisi 0:18
Yeah, it’s been a great year. And it only seems to keep getting better. So thank you for that.
Gregorio Uglioni 0:23
And for the people watching the CX Goalkeeper podcast, we are seeing your nice, nice background and you are already introducing what we are going to this to discuss digital customer service, you are co author of an outstanding book that we want to discuss today. But before we deep dive in the book and everything what it’s offering this book, because this is really a playbook that everybody could leverage and can leverage in business. I would like also to learn a bit about you, Rick, could you please introduce yourself?
Rick DeLisi 0:58
Sure. Well, I’ve been studying the science and the psychology of customer service, and customer experience for the last two decades, working for a number of years as the head of advisory for Gartner’s CX and customer service practices, and had previously written a book called the effortless experience, which perhaps we’ll get into a little a little while from now. And now I’m working as the lead research analyst for glia, the leading DCS or digital customer service provider for financial services companies. So my career has come full circle, but always focused on try to create excellent customer experiences, which of course, is your passion to
Gregorio Uglioni 1:40
exactly, but I am a bit disappointed, because you mentioned “a” book, therefore less experience. Sorry, this is not “a” book, this is the book. This is really one of the key books. For every customer experience professional, this is a must read. And it’s me telling that it’s not rich telling me to tell that or to say that to you. But it’s really one of the most important book in customer experience. And I would say it’s one of the first book really speaking about customer service. But perhaps you can elaborate a bit on that.
Rick DeLisi 2:15
It’s an always always an honor to hear how meaningful that book has been to so many people, both people who study customer experience as you do, and certainly those who practice it at companies all around the world. It’s a book that started with a really simple premise. We did a research project some number of years ago to try to determine what is the single best question you could ever ask a customer, right after a service interaction to predict their future behavior, specifically their future loyalty behavior. Now, we all know that the standard questions in customer service and CX have been the CSAT question, how satisfied were you with that experience? And then, of course, the NPS question, net promoter score, which is based on willingness to recommend, how likely are you to recommend us to a friend or colleague, here’s what we learned. Those are both fine questions. And those are both fine outcomes, you would want a customer to be satisfied, you’d want a customer to be willing to recommend you. But what we learned is, right after a service interaction, a person’s answer to either of those two questions isn’t very predictive of their future loyalty behaviors. So we experimented with dozens of different words and combinations and iterations of questions and hit upon this realization, a person’s answer to the question, how much effort was required for you to get your issue resolved? Their answer to that question, is a nearly perfect predictor of their future loyalty behaviors. So we began a whole research project into the art and science of reducing customer effort. Once we learned that effort is the thing that companies should focus on. We began to study what is effort? How is it experienced by customers? what can organizations do differently to impact effort? And then came the biggest surprise of all we had imagined at the outset? Again, just linking this question how much effort was required with the person’s future behaviors? We assumed at first and maybe it’s only logical to assume that effort is based on what a customer has to do, right? So when a service interaction that might be how many things they had to do, how hard it was to do those things, how long it took to do those things? Well, guess what we learned how a customer experiences effort isn’t just based on what they do. In fact, it’s based twice as much on how that person feels about the whole experience. The field side of effort is in fact twice as powerful as the do side. And once we discovered that, again, a follow on discovery to the initial understanding of link between effort and loyalty. Once we learned that, it’s so much about how a person feels, we began to realize there’s any number of things that organizations can do to change the way experiences feel. And we call that the science of experience engineering. I’ll just give you the simplest example. Let’s say you’re calling some company on the phone. And the IVR, the voice robot always asks you please put in your 15 digit account number. So you put in your numbers. And then eventually a live person comes on the line. And what’s the first question they always ask you? What was your account number? It’s like, I just put it on the system. Why are you asking me again. But if that, that rep, that person on the other end of the phone says, hey, look, I know you just put your number in the system, but for your own security, would you mind repeating it? That’s the same exact do the customers to do the same exact thing. But it feels completely different. And so understanding the due side and more importantly, the feel side of effort, opened up this whole fertile field of exploration and discovery around experience engineering. So that really struck home with me. And so that’s a big part of what I’ve been studying for all these years.
Gregorio Uglioni 6:18
It’s it’s really outstanding to listen from you what you’re saying and how you are explained that it’s really outstanding. This is really fantastic. But I thinking about the effortless experience in our digital customer service, another outstanding book, but how is it possible to create sites such a great books, and therefore my question is, which are the values that drive you in life?
Rick DeLisi 6:46
I am passionate about experiences. And and maybe if I’m being completely transparent, it’s that I get disproportionately frustrated when I have a poor experience. If I’m standing in a line, if I’m going through some process, if I’m in the middle of some whole rigmarole with some company, I’m always thinking, What could these people have been doing differently? How could they explain it differently? How could they present it differently? How could they structure it differently, so it feels more effortless? Once I came to understand how important customer effort is now, it’s like I measure every experience of my life against that criteria. And you can see, there’s a vast array of opportunities for organizations to make things less effortless, not just easier, that’s part of it. But also to make experiences feel more effortless.
Gregorio Uglioni 7:42
I think this is really, really a great view on on your life and on your values. And and it totally makes sense because you are explaining that we don’t need to call each other because nowadays there are different tools, different ways to connect and to interact with friends, but also with customers. And I think now we should kick off the discussion about the digital customer service, transforming customer experience for on screen word. And it’s something that you mentioned, you mentioned, I would never allow myself to speak about about weaknesses of the book, the effortless experiences. But you mentioned that one of the weaknesses of the of the first book you published is that you didn’t spoke about digital customer service. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?
Rick DeLisi 8:36
I’d say we at least paid lip service to it in the effortless book. But again, that was research that was done in 2012 2013 2014. And the digital customer experience was still very nascent at that point. So we shared what we knew and what we were learning up until that point. But man, have I learned so much since and Haven’t we all? Haven’t all of us become so much more digital first, so much more digital centric. And just to put a pin in the calendar from March of 2020, the onset of the pandemic, each of us have become exponentially more digitally oriented. We live in an onscreen world. You know, if you ask a person, where do you live, they’ll mention some city I live outside of Washington, DC. But in reality, here’s where we live. We all live on this thing. We all live on our screens. And the experiences that we have with companies have to align with the lifestyle that we’ve all chosen to adopt to live on our own screens. And so the central premise of the new book digital customer service, really still goes back to the theme of unnecessary customer effort. But what we’ve learned is that the single biggest source of unnecessary effort in the day digital world is when a customer has an issue or a problem. They go first to that organization’s web properties, website, Portal mobile app, get as far as they can get down the process of resolving their issue. And by the way, if they can do so entirely in self service, without any additional help, that’s always great. But there are always going to be moments of truth, as we’ve described them, issues that are emotionally important issues where a customer is not sure they know what all their options are issues where some degree of diagnosis is required. And in those situations, life, human contact is still critical. But where the effort comes in is, and I think we can all relate to this. If you’re on a company’s web property, and you need to speak to a live human being not just chat, but a voice conversation with a live human being, what are you stuck doing, stopping everything that you were doing in the digital realm, throwing that whole part of the experience away, only to have to start all over again, by dialing a phone number, and then going through that whole process, listening to the IVR menu, hoping you’ve made the right selection, finally waiting to speak to a person then re explaining your whole issue, getting re authenticated in the system. That is the biggest source of unnecessary effort for customers in the digital first onscreen world. And so what we write about in the new book is how can companies solve for that exact problem?
Gregorio Uglioni 11:35
Yes, and it’s really, really, really a great book, I have 1000s of questions, I would like to ask, but I try to stay in the 20 to 30 minutes discussion. I mentioned three words, and I think you can relate to them. But we can discuss on it, automation, collaboration and communication. These are three topics that you are sharing in your book. And I think the best way, it’s really if I have you on the podcast, not speaking too much, but giving back the words to you to explain that.
Rick DeLisi 12:07
Sure. So in the book, we describe a specific strategy called DCS. Now, the book is called digital customer service. But right away early in the book, we describe how those three words put together have a lot of variable interpretation, they can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. Typically, what they have meant in the past is adding more digital features and functions and extras on top of a customer service platform that was based in telephony, starting with a telephone based system and then adding these digital features. But what we’re describing is a platform in which all of the elements of the entire experience are all integrated into one platform. And what you mentioned are the three pillars of DCs communication, collaboration, and automation. So just to give you a brief description of each, when it comes to communication, a customer should be able to contact a company any way they choose through any of what we used to call channels. So if you want to start on the website, if you want to start in SMS, even if you want to start in the phone, no matter where you start, that’s where the journey should flow from there without forcing you to do a whole separate thing. So all the elements, all the elements of communication, are tied together. When it comes to collaboration. Now it is very possible for a customer and an agent to be looking at the same thing at the same time. This is what we call co browsing. Imagine if you’re having trouble accessing some function or some information on a company’s website, you press a button, now you’re speaking to a live representative through your own screen through your own computer, who then is with your permission, able to look at your screen and show you look at this little button here, go ahead and press that or did you know if you scroll up here, all of that functionality, or all of that information is available to you think about how that changes the whole experience of customer service. You know, it’s very hard to describe to someone or as the customer to take instruction from someone who’s looking at something that’s different than you are even if you’re looking at more or less the same screen without being able to see where I’m looking or for me to be able to see where you’re looking. That’s a communications nightmare. And that creates unnecessary effort. But with co-browsing, it’s possible for the agent and the customer to both be looking at the customer screen in real time. So that’s collaboration. And then when it comes to automation, there’s really two flavors. Automation that makes the agents job easier, like bringing up account information. and making suggestions about next steps, pre filling out a forms for the customer, guiding the agent to the appropriate resource to solve this customer’s issue, or automation that benefits the customer, automatically navigating them to a place where they need to go next, populating forms with information from the customer themselves without them having to do all the extra work, providing particular as potential steps or tips or tricks to guide that customer through their own experience. So automation works, both for the agent and for the customer. So again, all elements of communication, collaboration, and automation all tied together into one platform. And that’s what it takes to create an effortless, seamless five star experience for today’s digital first customers, which by the way, are pretty much all of us.
Gregorio Uglioni 15:54
Exactly, and harmonized throughout all these processes exactly what you were saying, perhaps because I am following you, I know what you’re discussing. And often people says, But you know, Rick, during the pandemic, people want to talk to contact center agents to employees, what you are offering, what’s your view on that?
Rick DeLisi 16:22
Yes, there will always be situations in which talking to a live human being are either absolutely necessary or greatly preferred. But those live conversations no longer have to happen as a completely separate phone call. So one of the key elements of this DCS platform is what we call on screen voice. So you as the customer at any time in the middle of your interaction, if you want to speak to a live human being, you press one button on your screen. And now you’re speaking through your screen to a person on the other end, who’s representing a company who can take care of your issue, just like you would if you had to make a phone call. But without that whole unnecessary step of stopping what you were doing, and then starting all over in a phone call. So let’s discuss both for the customer and the agent, how this idea of onscreen voice is so much better for them. For the customer, the entire life, part of the interaction occurs within context. So I’m already in the middle of some digital journey. I’m in the middle of some process, if I need help, I press a button. And now I’m speaking to a person who can help me right where I already was, you know, we talked about the idea of meeting the customer where they are. And that’s almost always interpreted as meeting them in the channel where they began the interaction. And certainly that’s important. But what about meeting the customer where they are in the midst of the journey that they were already on. So being able to speak to a live person who can pick up the conversation in context, where I am at this point in the journey creates a much lower effort experience. Think about it now from the agent standpoint, in a situation where the customer has already been authenticated in the system, their account has already been pulled up. Because they logged in on the website or the app, the agent can then greet the customer by name. Hi, Mr. De Lacy, great to talk to you. And by the way, based on that person’s browsing history, or what we call their digital footprint, where are they on the site or the app at the moment that they needed help a conversation instead of starting with Hi, how may I help you not knowing who that person is or what they need could begin with? Hey, Mr. Delisi, looks like you’re trying to apply for an auto loan, I could totally help you with that. Think of how much different that is for both the customer and the agent. It really feels to the customer. Much more like a VIP experience. This person already knows me. This person is anticipating my needs. This person is joining me in the middle of my journey. For the agent, it creates many more of what are called a rock star moments where you can truly connect with a person where you don’t have to ask a million annoying authentication questions. You don’t have to try to identify the issue this person is dealing with because you already have a strong idea based on what they’ve been doing. So being able to jump into the middle of that person’s conversation is not only more efficient, it’s typically a much shorter conversation, which is better for everybody. But it also allows you to truly serve that person instead of having to start from square one every single time. So it creates one of these impacts where everyone comes out ahead. It really is best for all and it’s so cool to think that this technology which He didn’t exist before, not only exists today, but is available to virtually any company.
Gregorio Uglioni 20:07
And it totally makes sense because I am preaching about adding the human to human experiences. But these are their value, add that human to human experiences. Because if I know you, Rick, then I use your name. And I know why you’re calling me. And it means I care about you. And I can start in a completely different way our our discussion, and it’s totally makes sense. And as you’re saying, the technology is there. Technology is the mean to achieve something, and does something it’s exactly creating value. And as you’re explaining perfectly in the first book, and also in this book, to reduce the effort, it totally makes sense.
Rick DeLisi 20:50
And that is the hallmark of this new book is that it is based on the combined learnings of everything that I’ve been studying, which is around the psychology of customer interactions with my co author Dan McKelvey, who’s the CEO of glia. He’s been studying how can we use technology to create more effortless experiences. And so we believe this is the first time that technology and psychology have been combined to create one product, one book and one strategy. So it’s equal parts, both there’s the human side and the technological side, they’ve now merged into one central idea, which is, why are we still doing so much of customer service on the telephone? It doesn’t make sense anymore. In today’s digital first world,
Gregorio Uglioni 21:40
yes. And it totally makes sense. Perhaps, how are you seeing the evolution of customer service in the past, and nowadays,
Rick DeLisi 21:49
what we’re seeing is that it hasn’t evolved nearly as quickly as the behaviors of customers themselves. That’s a really unfortunate and uncomfortable situation for companies to be in recognizing, we haven’t come as far as our own customers. You know, 84% of customers, according to research by Forrester start any service interaction on their own screen. And yet, companies around the world are still taking over 8 billion phone calls for customer service. That’s a mismatch that represents a lack of evolution by companies forcing their customers to do a thing that, frankly, feels out of date. We just don’t use the telephone for information or first service anymore. You know, think about all the things that we used to do by dialing a phone number that we don’t do any more even common things like reservations, when’s the last time you made an airline, or a hotel reservation or even a dinner reservation? Simply by picking up a phone and calling know when we need help when we want information? When we need service? We go here we go to our screens. So again, why is so much of customer service still happening on the phone? That’s a mismatch. It’s an opportunity moment. And it represents the chance for companies to evolve as quickly as their customers already have.
Gregorio Uglioni 23:15
Exactly. And I think in the book, and in your presentation, you are preaching about digital first. And it totally makes sense because we are living on our foods. It’s not a playing, as my wife is often saying that I play with the phone, it’s really working with the phone, and and doing everything but what we are doing in our daily daily lives. Perhaps my question is also, I really like to speak about the future try to predict what will happen in future. What’s your view, Rick, what we are speaking about in 10 years from now about customer service,
Rick DeLisi 23:53
in 10 years, we will look back at today and ask the same question I just asked before. Why did we do so much of the most important interactions we’ll ever have with customers on the telephone. It doesn’t make we’ll laugh about that, in the way that we laugh about all the things that we used to do on the phone. In the US, for example, you tell me if you’re familiar with a concept called Movie phone, we used to call a telephone number to find out what time movies were playing at the local theater that now seems so archaic, that seems so old fashioned. That would be like, you know, making your own clothes off of a loom or churning your own butter or building your own wagon. I suppose you could do those things. But we don’t do those things anymore. We don’t use the phone for information for service anymore, except when we have to when we’re forced to end customer service. So I think 10 years from now, we’ll be looking back and maybe almost sheepishly or embarrassingly laughing about the fact that we even in 2000 22 We’re still making people call us on the phone when they wanted or needed human contact.
Gregorio Uglioni 25:07
Thank you very much, it totally makes sense. And I couldn’t agree more. Because at the end, we want to create effortless experiences for our customer, but perhaps also, not always to agree on everything. Some people, some customer experience professional are preaching about to add some effort to some experiences in order to make that more desert desirable for customers that they need to do something in order to achieve something. What’s your view, the perfect experience is really the effortless one or with a small effort?
Rick DeLisi 25:48
Well, let’s make sure that we’re drawing a clear distinction between two groups of people, people who aren’t your customers yet. So prospect are people who you’re trying to sell to, and your existing customers, the psychology of those two experiences is often very different. If a person in the process of becoming a customer feels like they achieved something, or they had to put in a little extra work to get what they want. Maybe there’s a more rewarding experience about that maybe it feels like I did something, and I got something. So maybe in the process of becoming a customer, that might be a desirable outcome. But once a person is already a customer, if they have a problem, if they have an issue, if they need help, anything that you’re doing that makes that experience more of an effort for the customer means you’re losing, you’re losing in loyalty, you’re losing potential future revenue, you’re losing in terms of potential negative word of mouth. So anything that involves treating an existing customer, particularly in solving a problem should always be done, in the most effortless way possible. Here’s another way to think about it. For people who work in marketing, one of the primary objectives is mindshare. How can we get people to be thinking about us more often? How can we be more front of mind among our prospects? Service? Isn’t it exactly the opposite? Haven’t we really succeeded in service at the exact moment that the customer completely forgets that there was ever a problem in the first place? So rather than try to create dazzlingly memorable experiences in service, the ultimate outcome is to create an experience that’s so easy that the problem goes away, and is never thought of again.
Gregorio Uglioni 27:54
It totally makes sense. Thank you very much. And now the question that it comes to my mind is where can the audience find the book?
Rick DeLisi 28:03
Yeah, so we’re really happy that the book has been published by Wiley, a major publisher, it’s available on Amazon. It’s available on Barnes and Noble. And certainly, it’s available for global distribution. We also have an audio book version narrated by a very cool and inexpensive narrator, me. And there’s also a digital version as well, if you prefer to read it on your Kindle or your ebook reader.
Gregorio Uglioni 28:30
Thank you very much. And now it’s really time to come to the end of the game, and understand a bit more about you. But before deep diving into that, if somebody would like to contact you, what’s the best way to contact you?
Rick DeLisi 28:46
Sure. It’s always easy through LinkedIn, it’s just my name Rick DeLisi on LinkedIn, or my email address at glia is rick.delisi at glia.
Gregorio Uglioni 28:59
And is it possible to contact also then?
Unknown Speaker 29:01
Yes. Dan is available through LinkedIn as well. And it’s Dan Michaeli looks like thename Michael with an “I” on the end, Dan Michaeli. And he’s on LinkedIn as well.
Gregorio Uglioni 29:13
Thank you very much. And is there perhaps, in addition to the effortless, effortless experience and the digital customer experience? Sorry, digital customer service? Is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience that help you during your career or throughout your life?
Rick DeLisi 29:33
Yeah, I am always amazed how many people who follow the NPS methodology, the Net Promoter Score methodology, or who have even been measuring it at their companies for years, haven’t read the seminal book that introduced the world to NPS which is called the ultimate question written by Fred Reichheld. I’m amazed shocked even to discover that a lot of people who’ve been Tracking NPS for years, don’t even fully understand it. And the book explains it very thoroughly. How it’s less, even though the question is, how likely are you to recommend us to a friend or colleague, it’s less about recommendation, and more about getting a more truthful reaction from an individual about how they feel about their interactions with a company. So the idea is, if we just simply ask you, how likely are you to be loyal to our company, your answer may or may not be indicative of your future behavior. But if we ask you, and again, this represents the totality of your entire experience with the company, if we ask you, how likely are you to recommend us to a friend or colleague, what we’re really doing is putting you in the mind frame of influencing other people. And for most of us, when we’re asked a question about our influence of over other people, we’re more likely to be transparent, more likely to be fully honest about our feelings than if you just asked me about how I feel. So that’s where NPS first began the whole idea of putting a person in the mindset of recommending or influencing another person and using that as a lens through which to understand exactly how do I feel about my overall loyalty to your company.
Gregorio Uglioni 31:17
Thank you very much. And now I asked you to score the last goal is Rick golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new, that you would like to leave to the audience.
Rick DeLisi 31:30
Yeah, this for anybody who lives and breathes CX, this has been just a fundamental lesson that I’ve learned. And if you haven’t heard it expressed exactly in this way, I hope it becomes as meaningful to you as it does. To me, loyalty isn’t really about you. Loyalty isn’t really about your company. Loyalty isn’t really about your product. And to some extent, loyalty isn’t really about the experience, people have. Really, I thought that’s everything loyalty was all about. Well, what I’ve been learning is that loyalty is much more of a reflection of that individual person, and how they feel about themselves. So when a person encounters a product, a service, a brand, or an experience, that makes them feel smarter and better about themselves, that’s where loyalty comes from. And so, everything in the CX world, instead of being about trying to get people to say how great we are, should be about enabling people to feel even smarter and better about the decision they made to become your customer in the first place. So again, loyalty comes from how I feel about myself, based on my choices, so much more so than how I feel about you. So stop trying so hard to get people to say how great you are, and instead create every opportunity to enable and reinforce a person’s sense of self worth, and self value based on their decision to do business with you.
Gregorio Uglioni 33:11
Thank you very much. We are concluding this discussion with Rick golden nugget. I’m not commenting that because that’s your golden nugget. It was an outstanding discussion. Thank you very much for your time.
Rick DeLisi 33:25
Thank you for having me. And for anybody who would like to continue the conversation. Let’s do so thanks.
Gregorio Uglioni 33:30
I am super happy. And please, Rick, stay on the line because I need to ask you your 15 digit account number.
Rick DeLisi 33:39
I just put it in the system.
Gregorio Uglioni 33:41
I don’t have it, I need to write it.
And for the audience. I hope that you enjoyed the discussion as much as I did. Really, please stop post this podcast, download your copy of digital customer service because it’s really worthwhile to buy it. It’s a great book. And please stay on the line. We will meet next time. It was a great pleasure to have you on Thank you very much. Bye Bye. Cheers.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share that word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you
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