Episode released on: 20. June 2022
The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Jill Raff
LinkedIn Headline: Expert Insights Turning Employees Into Advocates and Customer Magnets Consultant, Speaker, Show Host, Author, CEO/Founder of Jill Raff Group, LLC
Highlights:
- 00:00 Game Start
- 01:00 Jill’s introduction
- 05:00 Jill’s values
- 06:19 EX2CX definition
- 8:03 the importance of employee experience
- 10:15 Inside-Out Methodology
- 18:03 The 3 “Es” plus one E
- 23:15 Jill’s Definition of Employee Experience
- 25:10 What are we discussing in Employee Experience in 10 years from now?
- 27:09 Employees: Partners and not “being depending”
- 28:15 Jill’s contact details
- 30:28 Jill’s book suggestion
- 31.59 Jill’s Golden Nugget
- 33:25 Game End
… and much more
Jill’s Contact Details:
- jill AT jillraff DOT com
- www.jillraff.com
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/ex2cx-expert/
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Zr7Espyc1cM08zXwKmxiA
Her book suggestion:
- The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster
Jill’s Golden Nuggets:
- It’s about making those genuine connections. It’s about transforming the everyday transaction into an interaction. So that you create that human to human connection,
- I believe for successful business, you want to create what I call a connection culture. You want to create an environment within your business, where your employees feel like a family, where they feel like true team members playing on the field for the same goal, the same company objective, and having fun while doing it.
- You are responsible, as a business owner, to provide ways and venues for employees to express themselves and to share time getting to know each other to work together. And in doing so you’re going to create that genuine connection with people. At the end of the day, that’s where you’re going to be most successful and you’re going to find the most happiness within your company.
You want to create “a connection culture”: an environment within your business, where your employees feel like a family, where they feel like true team members playing on the field for the same goal, and having fun while doing it. @ex2cx_expert on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast
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It’s about making those genuine connections. It’s about transforming the everyday transaction into an interaction. So that you create that human to human connection. @ex2cx_expert on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast
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Transcription:
Gregorio Uglioni 0:03
Ladies and gentlemen, tonight it’s really a big, big pleasure I have Jill Raff together with me, she’s a great customer experience and employee experience expert, strategist and specialist. But what I find out, she speaks also perfectly Italian. And therefore I start saying: Buona sera, Jill, how are you?
Jill Raff 0:26
Buona sera, buona sera, tutto bene. grazie
Gregorio Uglioni 0:30
you are really welcome to the CX goalkeeper show, I’m really happy that you accepted my invitation. We already had several chat offline . And now it’s really time to share all the know.how all the energy that you are spreading. And also in the pre discussion we already discussed quite a lot, because it’s really interesting to exchange with you and get your view on on different topics, but also on normal life. But for the people that don’t know you, could you please introduce yourself.
Jill Raff 1:05
Alright, so I’m Jill, Raff, and I professionally, I’m an EX 2 CX expert, which means from employee experience to customer experience. I know with every bit of my being I know from all of my 30 plus years experience, that when you have outstanding employee experience, it leads you to outstanding customer experience. And vice versa. If you have bad customer, bad employee experience, you’re gonna have bad customer experience. We can get into all those details later. But so that’s who I am professionally. I live currently in Austin, Texas. And I have quite a diverse background. And across many cultures across many industries, different countries, and I use all of that all of the strategies, the the knowledge, the experience, the education that I’ve learned across these various markets, and really use them to cross pollinate ideas and strategies for my clients, depending upon what their needs are. So it kind of allows me to look at what’s going on with fresh eyes, fresh ears with a unique perspective.
Gregorio Uglioni 2:23
Thank you very much, Jill. And perhaps also, could you please tell us something about your past career what you did, also in Europe, because I think it’s really interesting, and bring also a different view on what we are doing and what we are discussing.
Jill Raff 2:38
Absolutely. So my first life, as I call it was a fashion designer. And I started out in New York City and realized that it was a great excuse to go live overseas and be able to work and learn Italian and French. And so that’s what I did. And I started in Rome and redid my portfolio, went knocking on doors, I was taking Italian at the same time, and worked as a fashion designer and Roma and also B ologna. And it gave me an opportunity to really experience the same business the same career. But from a different culture from a different perspective. And to really understand the way another culture looks at something that otherwise would be the same. And learning other languages has been so instrumental. And understanding people’s cultures how they think realizing the cool thing is realizing that in some languages, there are words that don’t exist in other languages and how they express themselves and what that means as a result of that. So for example, there’s a little bit of side note, but I think it’s really fascinating. So there’s one language where it’s there’s no word to study in Hebrew, for example, it’s a little mode means to learn. But there’s no word in English we always say, Oh, I’m studying, but you could study all night long you could study the rest of your life it doesn’t mean you’re necessarily learning anything right? It’s kind of like hearing and listening. And so it was interesting because their word for it the only word is to learn and so there’s no option to to not learn and just just waste your time and study. So anyway, it’s those kinds of things and living in Europe was oh gosh, I love it so much as you know that totally lights me up and I look forward and hope to do that again someday soon.
Gregorio Uglioni 4:42
And what I can only say any if people are watching the video, you are smiling and it’s really nice to see our IP you are about that. And I think it’s really interesting and also based on your past it will be also the next question will be quite interesting for for the audience. Which are the values that drives you in life.
Jill Raff 5:04
That drives my life, I think integrity is my number one value, no matter what I do, no matter who I’m doing work with, no matter who I have a personal relationship with that integrity is the thing that needs to go through and through. It’s the honesty, it’s the trust. Those are all kind of subsets of integrity. It’s about genuine, authentic connection. And that follows through with my brand. To me, life is about connecting with other people who are not only similar, similar to you, but more importantly, who are different from you that we can learn from and appreciate those differences. And so we connect on all those levels. And to me, that’s something that really, I find carries me through in my life. And so I really, you know, you I can’t think of other words, but though, you know that the integrity is the really the biggest one, which includes respect and trust, and those things no matter what you’re doing.
Gregorio Uglioni 6:12
Thank you very much for this introduction. And I think now the game can start, we are on the employee experience, pitch, and we will start the discussion about about this this important topic. You mentioned that at the beginning. But I would really like to understand that the employee experience to customer experience, it’s what is clearly stated on on your webpage, what does it mean to you?
Jill Raff 6:39
Now, what it means is summer, I’m probably gave away too much at the beginning. But it’s, it’s really that in order to get to great customer experience, you need to start in the inside, you need to start with your employees. And when you have that experience, it’s you know, I’m playing off of the the b2b or b2c. So with for me, it’s the employee experience to customer experience, because they are they are integrated, you cannot separate one without the other end, there are professionals who are only six professionals or only edX. But for me, you can’t have one without the other. And so I think it’s really important that we look at both and recognize that the connection cannot be denied. And if you want great CX you have to really think about your effects. First,
Gregorio Uglioni 7:29
what you’re saying it’s makes totally sense and leveraging my soccer example, let’s think about what soccer teams are doing for the players that are on the field, how much they’re investing, to be sure that they’re LT that they’re getting the right training, they’re getting the right support from all the different levels from the psychological, physical, and so on. And therefore, it totally makes sense, because only these super engaged teammates can then win the match. And I think that’s that’s totally make sense. But to your customer, really understand our employee experience is important.
Jill Raff 8:14
Well, think about, I want everyone first second to think about experiences they’ve had as customers. And when you walk into a store, is there an employee there to greet you? Is there an employee at the cash register, when you’re ready to check out? Is there employee around when you have a question about something? And quite often? The answer to that is no. And I know there’s a problem with staffing. But this isn’t a current problem. This is a problem that has existed for forever. And they are not having employees be trained to interact with their customers not have it be a transaction. But to really transform transactions into interactions is one of my mottos. And when you connect with your customers personally, that come in, and that’s what makes the difference. And I think that’s the really important part of that is to really have your employees when they are engaged, your customer is going to feel that so yes, your customer is very much aware of it. If they get snotty attitude from an employee, when they ask a question or when they’re checking out. You better believe they’re not coming back and guess who’s responsible for that your employees just lost your customers for you. Because you didn’t you can’t blame the customer. You can’t blame your employee. It’s because you have not given them the tools that they need. Or if you have you’re not holding them accountable. And accountability is really important, but you cannot hold them accountable until you’ve established the expectations. I call that expectations management. And so many don’t have that and that’s something that I work with companies to try to help them with their expectations management. so that they can hold their people accountable.
Gregorio Uglioni 10:03
But it totally makes sense. And I would have not 200,000 questions, but I respect your time, and also a soccer match, it’s 90 minutes, and therefore trying to understand and researching a bit, you’re speaking about the Inside Out methodology, could you please share that with us?
Jill Raff 10:26
Absolutely. So it’s called the Inside Out methodology. Because I, as I mentioned, I believe it starts in the inside, it starts with your people with your employees. And it’s a cycle. And it’s a never ending cycle. Because it starts with actually your core values that we talked about, right, your core value your, your recruitment, according to your core values. And when you’re looking to hire to interview, speak to, you know, recruiters, it’s about having them only look for people who are are in alignment with those core values that you have. And that you hire according to that. And so when you do, at the top of of this, the cycle, you can rely on good quality people who from the get go, you know, are going to be living your values, because they’re in alignment with your values. And then you can teach them their daily tasks or responsibilities or whatever it is. But if if, if they’re really great at have a resume that they’re amazing at what they do, but they have a bad attitude, it doesn’t matter if they’re not aligned with your values, you cannot hire them unless you want to start doing a lot of pickup afterwards. Because it you know that one bad apple there that’s expression, it’s really true. It’s contagious, it affects the people around them if there’s bad attitude, and so, so even you, you interview, and you hire according to your core values, and then you continue that on into your onboarding. Your onboarding starts with educating your people, not just training them. And so many people bring people in for onboarding, and they focus immediately on training, training, training, well, I say, don’t train your people, you need to start by educating your people. And that means making sure they understand what these core values mean. That means they understand how you want them to express and communicate what those core values are to your outer and your end customers. Provide fun, different ways of of learning videos, interactive, you know, questionnaires, interactive events with each other, all kinds of things, because people are different learners. And some are very analytical. And they’ll they’ll love that that questionnaire. And others are going to be like, Oh, my God, I have to fill out another survey, right? Like, just talk to me. And let’s do a game, let’s have a conversation. And so have something that’s going to speak to all different types of learners. And, and then next, it incorporates the, the three keys, that kind of E three recipe plus one as it’s the recipe for success is really using these three E’s, which we can go into later. But it’s engage, I’m sorry, it’s educate, as I mentioned, initially, engage and interest those the three E’s, and that’s your, the core of your recipe. But the plus one is like that extra seasoning, it’s the it’s the salt that helps bring out all the other wonderful ingredients, the core ingredients, the salt just concentrates what that is and makes it more powerful. And so that extra E is empathy. And that is showing kindness, showing the human side, we all make mistakes, we all don’t understand everything immediately, like really show empathy with your people, and you will go so far with that. And then lastly, is your ongoing education. It’s not a bootcamp, it’s not something you can say I gave them a quick two week training, let’s throw them out there. And then they never hear anything about it. And they’re never given any sort of training 62% of of employees will leave their companies because they’re not getting the proper training. And so you have to continue the onboarding, training and and not just about things that are important for your company, but what’s important to them to the employees, maybe they’re things that could perhaps overlap with the work that they’re doing for you on the job, but it’s going to better them as a human being it’s going to better them as a professional and give them skill sets that they can take on with them later on or they could use their and so again, it’s about investing in your people. And when you do that you’re creating and again my my tagline is turning employees into advocates, and customer magnets. And so when you do that your employees are going to be your biggest advocates. They’re going to be Your megaphone out there, and telling people what a great company you are to work for the you will become the employer of choice. And so they’re going to be bringing in referrals on the back end. And the top of that cycle that I’m wrapping up,
I mentioned is the first part is getting those internal referrals. And then at the backside, once you’ve done this, you’re giving great experience to your end customers, you’re paying customers, and then they are in turn are gonna give you great reviews, great ratings. So you’re getting great internal referrals on the front end, and you’re gonna get great external referrals on the back end. And so it’s just this beautiful cycle that keeps going. It was a little long winded, sorry.
Gregorio Uglioni 15:46
No, it’s perfect, because I was speaking about the match together with you, but it’s not a match because I am learning a lot for me, it’s a training. But I’m always saying that it’s it’s my masterclass is where I’m learning a lot, and then getting different views on topics where I’m not the expert, and therefore I’m inviting experts like you to understand that and to share that with with the audience. And I think Ian can speak on about Europe, because I know a lot of people here and employee experience is not where it should be. And we are starting learning and understanding how important it is because we are seeing a lot of people, employees moving to other companies. And we start now understanding how much it costs also to a company to hire people find the right people, I don’t say train, I say educate them, and bring them up to speed. And if they leave after six months, then it starts again. And again. And again. And I think this will be one extremely important trends in future, how to retain the talents that you have in your company for longer than six months. And this will will be quite quite the big issues. You mentioned the three E’s plus one. And I think I would like to understand it a bit better. You mentioned them the different what its mean. But you could you please deep dive a bit also on this on this on the on this recipe.
Jill Raff 17:17
Yeah, sure. So for anyone who cooks or doesn’t, if you just love food, you’ll you’ll notice that there’s generally the the core the foundational ingredients that have to go in. And then you can add in whatever other things you want. But that gives you that core every time. And so those three key ingredients are educate, engage and interest. So we’ll start with that. And then we’ll get to the to the pinch of salt. So educate. As you’ve heard me say, right, I don’t believe that we should just train people, we have to educate them. And there’s a real difference, it actually ties back into what I was talking about before with learning a language with the language, right, that doesn’t have the word to study, but it has only the word to learn. So this is the same way that we don’t want to just train them, which would be maybe equivalent to the studying. But we want to when you educate someone, it’s like the expression, you know, when you teach someone, when you give someone a fish, right, they eat for a day, when you teach them how to fish, they’ll eat for life. And I believe the same way with educate, if you train someone, okay, they’ll be able to perform that specific task. But if you educate them on the broader principles of what it is that your company is about, and what you’re what you’re trying to achieve, and what’s important, then you’re you’re providing someone with value for life, something that they can grow into, that they can understand beyond just performing a task, like a monkey, you know, no, no, right? Anyone can can do that. And so you’re educating them, you’re giving them more, you’re showing them that you value them more, you’re showing them that you’re invested in them. And you’re educating them on who you are as a company, what your brand promise is, what your culture is, what are your core values. And so that just goes deeper. It’s a whole other level from training. So that’s educate you have to do that from the beginning, I believe and we work with companies to help them create an educational manual. So again, the difference everyone has their training manual. Well, I believe that you must first have an educational manual and they work together. Just like E X and CX are together with these two Rs well and so you first need to on your in your onboarding. Part of your you know hiring when you bring people in your onboarding The first thing you should do before you get to your training manual is really work on your go through the educational manual with them. So that’s educate. And each one builds on its own on its on itself. The next one, the next one is engaged. So now you’ve got people who are all on the same playing field playing field. And they know what right what what their goal is. And they know that they’re a part of the same team, they’re all teammates now. And what do we have to do, we have to play together? Well, we have to engage with each other, we have to have management and coaches leaders there shoulder to shoulder not telling us what to do, but showing us how to do it. And never be a leader and expect someone to do something that you’re not willing to do it yourself. And so when you engage with them side by side, then you’re gonna get a very different result than if you hand them a manual, or you send instructions and tell them we this is what we want you to do. Or this is, you know, even how to do it, let them think, let them problem solve on your own. Let them come up with ideas that you didn’t think about, like, really listen, ask for and hear and listen to ideas that everyone’s coming up with, regardless of the position, whether they’re the janitor or the dishwasher, it doesn’t matter, right, everyone adds value, and will broaden the value of your company. So let’s educate. And that’s engage. Next is interest. So once you’ve properly educated and engaged with your people, now you can interest them. And that is the core value of any relationship is strong trust. And when you do that, you relinquish so many hours and responsibilities as a leader, to your team, to your staff. Because now you can trust that they’re going to do what’s right for the company, because they’re an alignment, they’ve bought in you’ve, you’ve invested in them, you know that? Yes, we all make mistakes, but you know, let them go do what we’ve trained them to do, what we’ve educated them right, and, and so now you have time free to go do something else, maybe even get some time off, like what, you know, everyone works like crazy. And so when you can trust that you really trust them to be independent thinkers, and represent your company as it should be. So those are the three key really important ingredients. And when I mentioned about the plus one,
it really is that that seasoning that’s so important, that brings out all those three, because it’s about the human behavior, the human element, and that has to do with empathy. And when you have empathy, it means you’re stepping in their shoes, it means you’re stepping in really understanding how they feel not not sympathizing, but really understand where they’re coming from. And so when you do that, and you see people, you have the kindness there, you have the caring, the compassion. And that’s something that at the end of the day, when you when you pair it with those other three, you’ve got a total winning recipe,
Gregorio Uglioni 22:59
or a winning team,
Jill Raff 23:02
and a winning team.
Gregorio Uglioni 23:04
It totally makes sense. And you shared with us only two framework, the Inside Out methodology. And now this eatery plus plus one, but with your words, how do you define a great employee experience?
Jill Raff 23:23
I think a great employee experience is one where you have shown respect for all the people that are there. Where You Are, are showing them appreciation and acknowledgement you’re involving them, you’re listening to what they’re saying you’re implementing ideas from what they have. And when all of these things happen, then you can count on your employees to feel like they’re part of something that matters that they can have a difference, and that they’re not a cog in the wheel. And they’re not transactional, but they are there. And they’re important, and they’re responsible for the success or failure of your company. When you give them that kind of responsibility. It’s like child rearing. Children will rise to the occasion when you say I believe you can do this. Show me what you can do. They’re going to and it’s the same thing with employees. If you say I know you got this, we’ve we’ve educated you. We’ve engaged with you side by side, we’ve seen you do it, we know what you’re doing. And we trust you. Now you’ve got this, we trust that you’re going to do it. And so when you do that, you really see your people fly and when they do, they’re going to feel good about what they do. They’re not going to be looking for jobs elsewhere. That in a nutshell is really a great customer employee experience.
Gregorio Uglioni 24:46
Thank you very much. It totally makes sense. And I really like and enjoy what you’re saying because you are really focused focusing on the human being because we should never forget that we are all human beings and we We are employees are we and we are customer. And we are part of family, and and all these important roles that we have, and we need to cover throughout our life. Now, perhaps looking forward, let’s close our eyes for a few seconds and think about what are we discussing in 10 years about employee experience?
Jill Raff 25:26
I hope I envision that we will be in a situation where it is just a given that the employees are an integral part of the system of whatever it is that from the very beginning, they are looking for people to contribute to their business, not just perform a task, that they’re looking for people to be partners in their business, and they really look at their people, as partners in their success and recognize what that is. We’ve got a long way to go. But I think, sadly, the pandemic I think really crystallized for us, and many large companies, without their people, they’re nothing. And no matter how great their product is, no matter how great how great, you know, their service is whatever they’re doing, whether you’re a product or service based company. At the end of the day, if the people who are interfacing with your customers are not representing you in the way that you want in a very respectful, professional, intelligent way, then the experience is going to be bad. And so I really hope that we come far enough in 10 years, to know that and at that point be investing in our people right from the beginning.
Gregorio Uglioni 27:02
It totally makes sense. And I really think that what you’re saying being a partner, it’s the key in future, we discussed in our first chat, I think I’m quite sure we will remember that and we spoke about the different languages to what you mentioned also at the beginning of the of this discussion, and the one to one translation in Italian of working for a company being an employee, often we use the word dependent, it means I am depending from the company, and you explained perfectly that if I am depending from this company, they we are not at the same level. And therefore it totally makes sense. And I hope that we will change also this this strange word to be partner and not being dependent from from from a company.
Jill Raff 27:59
That’s very astute point. Absolutely. That That says it all right there, doesn’t it?
Gregorio Uglioni 28:06
Exactly. Yes, it’s totally makes sense. And we are also coming to an end from this match. But before you leave, I would like to learn a bit more about you and to ask you three additional question. And the first one is that perhaps could you share your contact details if somebody would like to speak with you to chat with you?
Jill Raff 28:26
Absolutely, you can reach me directly. Just my name Jill J I L L at jill raff . com. And my last name is R like Ronald, A, like apple pie. And double F two F’s like french fries. So I don’t think I mentioned that I grew up in the McDonald’s industry. So it just happens to work out perfectly with my last name, too. So it’s Jill at Jill raf.com. and my website is My name is well, jill raff .com. So you know, please check out my website, go there. And actually I want to learn about you. And I have a really fun way at the top fold of my website. It says I think it says Hi, Jill. You know, I want to I want to tell you about my business. And there’s a button at the top click that and there’s a really fun interactive way that you can do that with me. So reach out to me in either of those two ways. Or LinkedIn and LinkedIn. I’m very I’m on LinkedIn as as EX 2 CX expert.
Gregorio Uglioni 29:35
Perfect. I will all add all this information also in the show notes, but I would like also to that you mentioned your show because this is an outstanding show. I was I had the great opportunity also to participate. But please share also your YouTube channel.
Jill Raff 29:52
Yeah, so you know unfortunately right now I don’t have a vanity name for my YouTube channel but you can find it under Jill Raff, I think you can just find it under Jill rap. And the my show that I host is called celebrity customer experience. So if you if you put in Jill Raff and celebrity customer experience, you can find it on the YouTube channel. It also airs to LinkedIn and my Facebook page, which are both under EX 2 CX expert. But if you Google that, I’m sure that would come up as well. Thank you for mentioning that.
Gregorio Uglioni 30:26
Thank you, Jude, and Easter, perhaps a book that you would like to share with the audience that helped you during your career or during your life?
Jill Raff 30:37
Oh, gosh, I have so many. Um, gosh, I can’t think of just one that’s professional book, even though honestly, most of what I’m reading is always related to self growth and business. But there’s one book that I always fall back to that, interestingly ties into what we’re talking about with language and how we speak and how we view life and, and I think at the end of the day, exe X business. All this is about human behavior, and how we interact with each other and how we think our mindsets. So actually, this might be a good one. That’s not a business book, but it’s called The Phantom Tollbooth. And it is so fun to read. It’s a quick short read. I’m sure it’s in many languages. So look for it, The Phantom Tollbooth. And it really will make you think about how we express ourselves about how we communicate the words we use the power they have, what we even buy into when we use certain words over others. So that’s a fun one. It’s probably different from anyone else who’s offered book suggestions to you.
Gregorio Uglioni 31:55
Thank you very much, Jill. And we will read that. The last question is JIll’s golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you would like to leave to the audience.
Jill Raff 32:07
Yeah, yes, I think at the end of the day, it’s about making those genuine connections. It’s about transforming the transaction, everyday transaction into an interaction. So that you create that that connection, that human to human connection, being authentic, people feel it every time and they feel when it’s inauthentic. They feel when people are fake when they just put on a smile, and they turn away from them. And then suddenly the smile is gone. Right like and I believe for successful business, you want to create what I call a connection culture. You want to create an environment within your business, where your work, family feels like a family where they feel like team members true team members playing on that for the same goal, the same company objective, and having fun while doing it. And in order to do that you you’re responsible as a business owner, to provide ways and venues for them to express themselves and to share times getting to know each other to work on projects together. And in doing so you’re going to create that genuine connection with people. And I think at the end of the day, that’s where you’re going to be most successful and you’re going to find the most happiness within your company.
Gregorio Uglioni 33:24
What I can say is only thank you very much Jill, it was an outstanding discussion. And for my point of view, we want to gather three zero, a great Hetrick from from GE but also to the audience. I think that’s up to you to decide if we want or if last, what we would like is to get your feedback. If you are happy or if you’re unhappy, let us know. And please please connect with Jill because you can have a great discussion. Thank you very much, Julie.
Jill Raff 33:54
Thank you so much. I absolutely would love to speak to anyone about what’s going on in their business any questions they have about anything I have. As you can tell this stuff lights me up. I love speaking about E X 2 CX so happy to speak to any of your your listeners, your viewers, anytime.
Gregorio Uglioni 34:13
Thank you very much and also to the audience. I hope that you enjoyed this discussion as much as I enjoyed that. And I wish you a great evening a great day. Thank you very much. Bye bye grazie mille, arrivederci.
if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with word of mouth, subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you
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✅ subscribe it
- Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/3qYr4nh … if you are an Apple User please rate it & review it!
- Google Podcast: https://bit.ly/3rxRm0aCXGK
- Spotify: https://bit.ly/3GhCGXeCXGK
- Amazon Podcast: https://bit.ly/3xYYDaECXGK
- Stitcher: https://bit.ly/3pws7ISCXGK
📹 as a Webcast you can subscribe it on YouTube
THANK YOU – feedback always welcome, please DM me!
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THE CX GOALKEEPER 