Human Level Artificial Intelligence with Pascal Kaufmann – E28 REPLAY

Episode released on: 28th June 2021

CX Goalkeeper with Pascal Kaufmann – S1E28 is about human level artificial intelligence Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Pascal Kaufmann

LinkedIn Headline: Founder & CEO (we are hiring !)

My learnings:

– It is possible to create human level AI

– Deep learning and Machine Learning will not replicate the human brain. Indeed, to create flying machine, it was not required to copy bird feathers

– The principles of intelligence need to be discovered to crack the brain code

– The brain is like a small data machine

– Today, there is no prototype able to emulate human intelligence

– Midfire will unite 300’000 talents to focus on specific questions with the final scope of cracking the brain code.

– There is a race to create human level AI

– In China, it is built for the government and in the USA for companies. The idea behind Mindfire is to build it for people. Switzerland is suited for this task.

– Speaking about ethics, it is an ethical imperative to build human AI for the people and ideally in a free country.

– Speaking about empathy. Does a machine need emotions? Do objects have feelings? – is it possible to train it. Tricking human beings by means of hormones is relatively easy (think about Oxytocin).

His book suggestion:



and this is the Alien Movie which Pascal very much recommend when it comes to AI:

Pascal’s golden nugget:

We will be able to create human level AI within this decade 2020 to 2030. And I think the race about AI will be decided in this very decade. We are living in super exciting time and we should all help that it goes into the right hands and it goes to people and not to governments nor to companies.

How to contact Pascal:


· You can also write him an email but your email should be remarkable as Pascal often deletes emails. Make it somehow stand out – if not, it will be deleted.

Thank you, Pascal!

#customerexperience #cxgoalkeeper #artificialintelligence

We will be able to create human level AI within this decade. We are living in super exciting time and we should all help that it goes into the right hands and it goes to people and not to governments nor to companies. @PascalKaufmann on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast #artificialintelligence #AI


Pascal Kaufmann 0:02
Ladies and gentlemen, big pleasure to have Pascal Kaufmann with me. To be honest, I am not sure if it’s an hologram, if it’s the real Pascal, or if it’s the Pascal with something like lens and other people are telling him what to say. But we will find out during this discussion. Hi Pascal, How are you?

Hi Gregorio, Great to be here. Sometimes I’m also not so sure myself whether or not I’m a real guy or not, but I’m the biological Pascal here all fine.

Perfect, thank you very much. And I want to be honest with you with with the audience. We have one of the smartest brain in Switzerland, and therefore I would ask Pascal to quickly introduce himself.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:46
Well, thanks, cool. Well, I’m a neuroscientist. I did brain dissections back in two days. So I have a neuroscience background, I founded a company called Starminds together with my co founder, Mark Vontobel. I love everything that is related to cyborg technology. So I would love to think with the power of 1000 brains. And in my latest endeavor called Mindfire, we try to create human level AI, and ultimately hopelessly a guardian angel that could support me in my daily decisions, and could do my job for me, that will be my vision.

Pascal Kaufmann 1:26
Thank you, Pascal, or Thank you, Frankenstein. Sorry. Thank you, Pascal.

Frankenstein was actually a Swiss scientist. So it’s great. It was great guy.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:37
Clear, but it’s a bit strange setup. No joke by side I wants to be able to professional. And I think I would like really to start discussing about human like artificial intelligence or intelligence. I think everybody’s following you, you are doing an example, that if a machine needs 300 million picture of a cat to find out that it’s a cat and not an house, or, or something, something else different. It’s not really intelligent. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Pascal Kaufmann 2:10
Yes, yes, I’m a little bit disappointed regarding this deep learning, machine learning hype these days. I think people make the mistake, the same mistake again and again, that they just take the most complicated thing that we know in the world, which is a computer at the moment besides from biology. And then we kind of equate it with the human brain. The same mistake was done like three 400 years ago, where people thought in the brain there are like clockwork bodies and wheels, because the watch industry was actually on the verge there. So yeah, human level AI doesn’t mean just to have this kind of box that looks like a human being. But within there, like pumps and wheels, it actually means really understanding the principles of intelligence, and creating devices, creating tools, creating maybe robots that could actually be in the same level as a human being, and the sisters as a friendly assistant. And that would ease our lives that would help me in boosting research that would be able to think with the power of 1000 brains, such a human level AI machine would be a vision that I would very much welcome.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:22
But if I understand well, it means what we are standing trying to do. It’s we’re putting computer power into computers to calculate quicker and quicker and quicker. And what you’re saying is we are going let’s say in the wrong direction.

Pascal Kaufmann 3:37
Yes, indeed, I do not think that the brain is a computer. So it is actually a little bit the same mistake like copying birds. So a few 100 years ago, people wanted to create artificial birds. And maybe you remember those, like woods in the construction stand every two golf when you look at the history books, and it was Leonardo da Vinci, which actually always explains my background, who said actually tested the shape the wind shape, which is mission critical if you want to create flying machines. And therefore with this deep learning approach, equating the brain like as a huge repair statistics engine. I think that’s very short sighted. And we didn’t make a lot of progress qualitatively in the understanding of the brain. So the principles that we apply these days are like 6070 year old concepts that now come into fruition based on faster computers. But actually, when you need three on a million pictures of kids, as you said, Gregorio, in order to say it’s a cat, a horse or a cow, I don’t find that so intelligent, so intelligent, it to me would be like a child looking at one cat, coddling the cat little bit, and then knows once and forever to Kathy’s. So the brain is much more small data machine. And that’s actually what I think we should look for. What are the principles of intelligence? Maybe The brain is a super organism constituted by very, very simple elements, 100 million brain cells, maybe there is in the brain code that could be the roots for human level AI?

Gregorio Uglioni 5:13
And how far are you with your research with your company mind fire, to break this code, finding this principle, and trying to find out how the brain is organized.

Pascal Kaufmann 5:26
Yeah, maybe you know about the Human Brain Project in Switzerland, where we attracted almost 1 billion funding, it was a 10 year project. By the way, there is a very interesting movie out there since a few months about the summary of this Human Brain Project. And I think the mistake there was that they really want to replicate brain tissue. So like copying the feathers of the bird, instead of looking for the principles and mind fire a shiz away from that we do not try to copy nature. And asking me for the question, How far away are we for a breakthrough quality breakthrough, there are people that I know that tell me, they actually know what the brain code is, we have actually cracked the principle of intelligence. And then I tell them, no one will believe you, you have to build a prototype, you have to demonstrate it so that everyone understands, okay, they really cracked it. So I believe it when I see it. And at the moment, I don’t know of any prototype that is able to solve certain problems, where humans are very rarely good at it. And where machines are very bad at it, I don’t see self driving cars, for example, or I don’t see machines, which are able to do automated research. So I would say principally, we may have understood how the brain work. But we haven’t translated into applications and in prototypes. And I think that may take a few years from now. But I don’t think it’s a 50 years timeframe you’re talking about, I think the translation of existing No well into prototypes is a matter of just a few years.

Gregorio Uglioni 7:01
Okay, this is interesting, because it means we will see that, and I’m really keen to see that and what you’re saying I think it’s really interesting, but also impressive, because we spoke in the at the beginning about children, you have one small child I have also small child is four years old. And now it’s all about driving cars, if you’d like to drive the car, and then I told them, sorry, but I’m not sure that you can drive the car in 14 years when you are 18 years old, because the car will drive itself. And it was quite scared. They looked at myself and said, are you explaining puppy I said, I think we are moving fast forward. And also with discovered situation. I think it accelerated everything. But this is very interesting. And coming back to this project to this company mind for this organization. I saw a presentation from you where you showed a matrix. And on this matrix, you had the performance and the competence. Could you please elaborate a bit on that? Because for me, it was really mind blowing what you explained.

Pascal Kaufmann 8:10
Yes, I did research in the Artificial Intelligence Lab in Switzerland. And my professor told me never ever use the term AI. Because when you talk about artificial intelligence, it’s like talking about ethics. Everyone has a different understanding, but a very strong opinion what AI really is. So I told him, I’m not satisfied with that answer, I need to have a scheme where I can explain what we mean with AI. And he explained to me the simple chart there, you actually have the performance of something, for example, building faster search engines or recognizing cancer on photo photographes etc. So whenever it comes to performance, you can always build a machine that outsmart that beats a human being. So I would say whenever there’s a rule behind, whenever it can be formalized, you can always build machines that are better than human beings. Interestingly, on the x axis, it says the competence of something. So give an example for competence. If you ask a machine, what can you do with a pair of shoes, most machines will tell you you can actually wear them right. But the human being or even your, your little son will tell you, Oh, you know, with the shoes, you can actually plant nails into the walls, you can build shapes, you can even throw them at people because they know what the shoe is. Or also when you have a chessboard and it hasn’t like eight times eight fields, but like 13 times 13 fields, every human being who is able to play chess is able to transfer existing know how to unseen situations, this transfer of know how we call competence. And for the machines that complete mystery, we do not know how to build machines which are competent. So what mind fire tries to build is human level AI and humans actually are both competent and in certain tasks very performed. Want, but we are very bad with human beings in repetitive tasks. So it will be awesome to have machine with the competence of a human being, but with the performance of a machine, this is what we strive for. And I like this example a lot, because no machine can these days, transfer Noell, from existing information to answering situations, this competence is something that only human beings are capable of still these days.

Gregorio Uglioni 10:27
And I think this is a worry, worry tight linked to start mind the other company that you create, because they’re what you’re saying or what I learned from this company. It’s not about learning, learning, learning and reading all the days to get more competent, but to find the right experts in the world or in your company. And these expert could could could help you. Is this correct?

Pascal Kaufmann 10:52
Yeah, perfect summary. Gregorio, the thing is a little bit, I’m a very slow learner. I mean, I started this ancient Greek and Latin line languages, and I studied for seven years all languages, and forgotten almost everything, right. But much better would have been, if I have a problem, I can just turn to the expert in ancient Greek. Or I could just turn to the expert in, let’s say, algorithms. And that person would explain to me the relevant know how, and this is what you describe it, the company store minds, it’s kind of a super organism, very connect a lot of human beings around the globe, and taken together is many, many, many human brains are kind of forming super brain. So in a way, we already have super intelligent organisms. It’s whenever you connect people in a systematic way, we can outperform an individual human brain. And I believe if you could somehow harness that superhuman intelligence, and focus that on to this topic of AI, what could be the principle of intelligence? I think we could do a breakthrough. And that’s actually what mind fair is doing to try to unite 300,000 smart people around the globe, we laser focus them on the unsolved questions in brain research and AI, and try breakthrough before someone else does this breakthrough. And that’s a race for AI, like the moon race, the race for space, it’s a race for who can first create human level AI.

Gregorio Uglioni 12:21
And I think what what you mentioned, it’s really interesting, and I think this is the key of this project. And but I would like that you explain that, because if we think about us and all these big giants, or China, with with, with other targets, perhaps it’s better to have somebody else winning this this race? Is this correct? It’s what you’re trying to do?

Pascal Kaufmann 12:45
Yes, yes. And I was just in Shanghai a few months ago, and it was very interesting, because they really built AI for the government. So they’re really proud of that. So in China, they have a different value system right. In, in, in the US, for example, large, lots tech corporations, they also tried to do a breakthrough in artificial intelligence, but then they would use it for the company. But no one actually is trying to build AI for the people. And I think the old continent Europe, we have at least one task in our history. Again, in our future, I would say it is creating human level AI for people. And Switzerland would be ideally suited for that role, because you’re kind of neutral. They have some of the highest talent densities in the world here in Zurich, or in Lugano, read loads on AFL. And then they would even be accepted in the world with this role, because they have a history of being a facilitator of bringing people together. If Switzerland let’s Dysart way we call it of creating AI not for government, not for company. But for people. I think that will be an interesting, ideal role for Switzerland. And this is what we also tried to shape in mind fire to try to develop an ecosystem in Switzerland and beyond to create human level AI for the people.

Gregorio Uglioni 14:11
How far are you to get these 300,000 people or experts together?

Pascal Kaufmann 14:16
Yeah, you kind of already asked it, but I evaded your question a little bit, but I try to give an answer that in the year 2018, we did my Midfire one, which was bringing together the smartest people in the world, and physically flying them into Switzerland, they actually into the Swiss Alps, and we hired the chalet, we rent the chalet, and then we actually locked them in, and we tried to crack the brain code. So we actually extracted many distinct lessons, lessons learned to one of these was, it is actually not scalable to fly in people physically, in particular, because of Corona. Or also like when you look at the actual ecological footprint. It might be More why wiser to actually leave them in the countries where they are, and somehow use technology to connect them. So what we at mind fire do these days we create virtual reality labs like in virtual you put on your VR glasses. And then you are within the ideal Artificial Intelligence Lab, the best lab you can think of if all the tools that you need. And whenever you have a question at hand, instantly, you are presented the 10 leading experts in the world who are actually online. And we’re also sharing the lab with you. So that actually works already. We have a built this infrastructure with many, many trial and errors. We also have incentive schemes. I mean, why should the talent chair know how right? We actually also have a mechanism to identify the right talent for specific questions. And by end of June in this year, we like to present this virtual reality AI lab to the first bunch of young people and our target group or people being 15 years old, and 25 years old. We believe in young people who sometimes ask very naive questions, who do not believe that the brain is a fast computer. And these people rely to try to unite in these AI labs. So I think in the second part of this year, there will be many, many interesting teams competing in these AI labs. And they try to build prototypes, they try to build robots that have to solve certain tasks. And we try to verify whether or not disagreements are really outstanding. And of course, we also patent that, and intellectual property would then belong to the talent, of course, who actually meant that. So I think it’s an interesting scheme. And we developed this concept over many years. Yeah.

Gregorio Uglioni 16:52
Damn, I was not invited in 2018. That’s not an issue…

Pascal Kaufmann 16:57
50 people Gregorio, it just 50 people.

Gregorio Uglioni 17:01
Again, joke aside, I think this is really, really interesting. And you are touching one one relevant topic. And I know, we don’t have enough time to discuss everything. But at least to get your view. On the topic, ethics, we spoke about big, big, big companies, we spoke about countries. And now we’re also speaking about this talent pool that are creating something new. And also going forward thinking about then when this artificial intelligence is here, and the artificial intelligence create something new. What’s your view on that?

Pascal Kaufmann 17:36
Yeah, you know, ethics. I mean, I used to say, I’m a hobby ethics person, because it’s very hard to be an expert in ethics, because it’s so relative, in every country, almost in every different, there are different perspectives on this topic. So we are not even able to have human rights on this planet. And I mean, we do not talk about AI, either we talk about killing people or not, and we do not have an agreement on that. So imagine now in ethics regarding AI, I think it’s completely unrealistic. So instead of doing a lot of philosophy, about ethics, we should try to, to be very, very, at the cutting edge of this development, so that we can shape a little bit where it’s going. So talking about ethics, we need to build AI, and to give it to the people. If you do not believe human and build human level AI, I guarantee you, we will not be able to solve ourselves made problems that we have on this planet, with our old fashioned human brains. I’m very, very skeptical when I look at the current developments that we really can all unite and somehow magically solve these questions. We need to have something better than human intelligence, I think we need to have these artificial intelligence. And I think it’s ethical to create AI as soon as possible as fast as possible. And I think it’s unethical to let this race to up to the companies or up to somewhere very autocratic countries. So it is an ethical imperative to build human level AI, and ideally, in a free country, and ideally, for the people.

Gregorio Uglioni 19:17
I fully agree with you and at the entities is to this is the key, if you are creating that for or you are creating that for the better, and for the people, then and then it’s important to have some principle, but at the end, there is no human being that can really decide is this correct? Or this is right or this is wrong. It’s it starts with self driving cars, if they have an accident, who is responsible for that and so on. And it is clear, based on the fact that you are speaking quite a lot about human beings. Does it mean what you were explaining that then in future this AI will be able to be empathetic with people if feelings?

Pascal Kaufmann 19:57
Well, maybe you remember Tamagotchi decades ago, or even today, certain pets, I mean, human beings attributes emotions into objects. I mean, if you take away my iPhone, I get crazy, right? It’s like an organ to me. So the human beings, we don’t have an issue in placing emotions, feelings in like objects. The other question is Do these objects have emotion, feelings, etc, I would say you don’t even know that from your human friends. I mean, you could talk to a zombie, that somebody without any feelings could actually just pretend to have feelings, I would argue we would have a very, very hard time to find out whether this person this Toby person has subjectively the emotional empathy, or whether or not it’s just like a very well trained zombie or irrelevant, well trained robots. So this entire talking about empathy, I find, you can trick that rather easily. On the other hand, I can give you a little bit of oxytocin, it’s a so called Kiss hormone. And all of a sudden, you feel the chemistry so nice between Gregorian Pascal. So my chest things are right. And so tricking human beings, by means of hormones, is relatively easily easy. So I wouldn’t bet too much on emotions and on these feelings. Therefore, I do not think that this will pose a major hurdle for machines to somehow imitate emotions, or even to trigger emotions, being chemically or being it just by being a nice chemical check.

Gregorio Uglioni 21:39
Yeah, yes, I can understand that. And from my point of view, we are also far far away, because my fridge is not able to understand that milk is missing. And all this stuff. And before they empathize with me that music is missing, I would like that this easy task is possible to get performed automatically, so that I don’t need to lose time going to food to buy for grocery, or the big example that I’m always using us to do to define an appointment with the doctor or something like that, why the two machine cannot speak together, they check my calendar, and they define okay, this is the right point in time and the doctor point in time, it’s also and then you can match that. And these are example that I was discussing 20 years ago when I was at the University, and we still don’t have really did the right solution.

Pascal Kaufmann 22:31
Yeah, and I’ve just a side comment. Most animals in the world’s most living beings are not very emotional. If you think of plants, if you think of certain lower level like animals that can perfectly live without displaying emotions. So I’m not so sure whether intelligent machines, how much emotions, how many emotions, we want to program that in. So let’s let’s see.

Gregorio Uglioni 22:59
It’s a really interesting, and I think as you’re speaking about empathy, emotion, and so on, we would like also to learn a bit more from the human side of Pascal, I’m not speaking with the cyborg anymore. With the Pascal, perhaps the first question to learn a bit more about you, you’re extremely active. If we you won all the possible awards, and you did everything. I think you can feel two or three lives of normal people already. Now. How can you ensure to have a proper work life balance, life work balance?

Pascal Kaufmann 23:34
I think that’s a very good question. Gregorio also has to do with age, I learned that when you’re a young guy, you should work like crazy. So that you can come force that you can progress, etcetera. But sometimes, it’s maybe around the age of 40, you should question yourself, can you do that for another 40 years? Or should you change your strategy? And I think asking the right people knowing whom to ask is really very important to me. So because of this company, Starmind, I started, I would say, about 10 years ago, to more focused on the right questions, and to not focus too much on solutions. Because when you’re able to ask the right question, when you’re able to describe the tasks efficiently, you can solve it, maybe machines can do it, or someone else can do it. So I love collaboration. I love teamwork in some tasks are easy to me, but sometimes are really, really difficult to me. So why not collaborating? And I think in the world are so many smart people. It’s really about finding the right project, finding the right people, and there I think people can achieve a lot in their lifetimes. It’s also his augmented intelligence thing that I like. I would love to have a lens on my eye. Whenever I have a presentation. Sometimes I forget my text, right. I would love to have like a teleprompter. I can read that. This was a fantasy like 10 years ago. But these days, this kind of technology starts to exist, or even in my ear sometimes have like this little hearing aids, students are sitting in the background. And when I do not know the solution to an answer, my students Google that, and during the speech, I can actually give the solution. So it’s not that Pascal is a Superman, but that Pascal knows how to use technology. So this is augmented intelligence. And I love to embrace technology in order to augment my capabilities. But you’re right, I would love the I would wish to, to not need sleep so much. I love sleeping, right? machines don’t have this issue. So I still am bound by man human boundaries and frontiers. And the human factor, I think I start to feel because I’m getting older and older. So it feels to me that the future belongs to the young people, the smart flanges, people, but people like me, we should ask the right questions. And we should try to motivate teams to focus on the right questions. So that’s a little bit however.

Gregorio Uglioni 26:06
And I really like what what you’re saying, because then it’s, it’s about the experience that you already have that you already faced, that you can help and support the team solving questions, but you are not providing the answer, they are providing the answer. And you are giving all only guidance, based on the patient and your experiences. Therefore, I fully agree with you. It’s also we have 24 hours in one day, we need to sleep we like to sleep and therefore it it’s it’s focused, you’re laser focused on what it’s relevant for you. And on the business side. And on the on the family side. Perhaps you mentioned that, that you are not reading a lot, and other people should should read for you. But the question I’m always asking, is there a book or also a movie or a video or something that you would like to mention that other people could profit from from it?

Pascal Kaufmann 27:05
Oh, yeah, definitely. I was blown away by certain documentary movies today. I was watching during the corona periods. I’m a big fan of ARTE, which is like a European TV format. And they just published the latest about jeans. And they also published the latest about conscious research. And they also published an interview about freewill. And because scientists obviously had a lot of time during the corona crisis, because they were also locked back home. Some of the top notch scientists, they were ready for interviews, they were available for interviews. And you get a very nice overview on the state of your neuroscience, genetics, ethics, just by looking at these movies, I can send you the URLs afterwards, Gregorio. This was very mind blowing to me. And I learned things I’ve never heard before. I was blown away, I heard about the progress about certain things that are very new. And a lot of ethical questions also have been raised there. And it’s interesting how people are respond to these ethical challenges. So definitely, I would recommend this movie and one of my all days favorite is Alien Covenant. Alien Covenant. I don’t know whether or not people know that. But it’s basically an artificial intelligence movie. I was blown away because I expected these horror alien movies thing. But after watching Alien Covenant, I really I had to sit down and just reflect what I’ve seen. I think AI can go into that direction as it is described. I was blown away.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:44
We’re a nice, thank you. And for sure, Pascal, I will add all the links that you’re sharing with me in the show notes more than happy. Perhaps you mentioned something about this movie. But I think there are quite a lot of science fiction movies that are showing how could be the future. And sometimes they find out really what will be our future.

Pascal Kaufmann 29:06
Well, maybe you have to rephrase the question. Is there a question there? Gregorio

Yes. What What’s your view on that? Because we saw from from, from some science fiction films that are really showing what will be the future, and perhaps somebody already thought about something. And now it’s a question how we could use that for the better of people.

So I think the Prometheus is part of the Alien Saga by Ridley Scott they described his company called Wayland, how they create the first cybernetic machines. And then he gave his speech where he said, why shouldn’t I be allowed to create artificial man? And I expected that the audience would kind of protest and say no, are you crazy? But in the light of a Corona crisis or in light of huge challenges, obviously It the crowds accepted that, that human beings should now build human level AI machines. And I think you really see how the progression is altered acceptance in society, in these alien movies there. And I think that comes pretty close. Although the machine the dilemma there was the robots, we are not allowed to create other robots. This was a holy rule kind of built into the machines. And these robots are not happy with that. So they also want to create other machines. And then everything kind of flows up there. Right? So I think this, it’s very interesting how they visualize that very interesting how they, how they treat that topic. And I think this science fiction series, the promises, and the Alien Covenant, in my view, comes very close to a realistic development in AI.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:54
Thank you, Pascal, also for the for the explanation. My second last question is about if people would like to connect with you to contact with you, what’s the best way to reach you out?

Pascal Kaufmann 31:07
I think they should be outstanding, what they write to me, or just writing something that I find very catchy. If it is catchy, I don’t mind the channel. It can be WhatsApp can be email, it can be on LinkedIn. So my preferred channel would be LinkedIn. And the second one would be email. And but please make it somehow stand out. Because usually I delete my emails, when I don’t see in the in the title, something that is relevant.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:35
Thank you for the thank you for the hint. It means what I wrote to you what was in enough intelligent that you that you answer to that.

Pascal Kaufmann 31:45
And the guy who wrote the email is also very important. So I know Gregorio and I know you’re a interesting guy.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:52
Thank you very much. And this is my very last question. And this is the question I always ask. It’s something that we discussed or something new, it’s the golden nugget from Pascal something that you want to leave to the audience.

Pascal Kaufmann 32:09
We will be able to create human level AI within this decade 2020 to 2030. And I think the raise about AI will be decided in this very decade. So we are living in super exciting times. And we should all help that it goes into the right hands. So it goes to the people not to the government and to the companies.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:28
Thank you very much Pascal. As usual, I’m not commenting the golden nugget of Pascal because it’s Pascal one. And I can only say thank you very much Pascal for your time.

Pascal Kaufmann 32:38
Thank you, Gregorio.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:40
And also thank you to the audience. It was really a great discussion with Pascal outstanding insights. I hope that you enjoyed the discussion as much as I enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Speak to you soon. grazie mille, arrivederci.

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