Value for Customers with Maxie Schmidt – E84

Episode released on: 25. July 2022

Built to Win with Annette Franz Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Maxie Schmidt

LinkedIn Headline: Vice President, Principal Analyst | Author | Keynote Speaker | Inspiring and Supporting Customer Experience Professionals

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:39 Maxie’s Introduction
  • 03:20 Maxie’s Values
  • 04:30 The broader CX landscape (Value,
  • 07:28 Value for Customers
  • 12:45 Different Value perception
  • 14:37 How to measure the value created
  • 16:52 How can we maximize the value for customers?
  • 22:14 Best in class examples
  • 24:38 additional best in class example related to customers’ needs
  • 26:40 What we are discussing in 10 years from now about CX
  • 28:45 Maxie’s Book Suggestion
  • 30:30 Maxie’s Contact Details
  • 31:08 Maxie’s Golden Nugget

and much more.

Maxie’s Contact Details:

Her book suggestion:

  • Making Numbers Count by Chip Heath and Carla Starr

Maxie’s Golden Nuggets:

  • The belief of leaders that they are customer centric, that they’re supporting an organization in being customer centric, and CX people actually believing it. We have some recent data where CX people say that they feel the leaders are believing and acting accordingly. True commitment. Looking at some of the customer experience, people I’ve talked to, I don’t think it’s true. I think leaders don’t know enough about what it means to be customer centric. They don’t know what they need to do, and they don’t know the personal shadow they cast.
  • One of the first thing I have on the priority docket for customer experience leaders needs to be to find ways to, without losing your job, making the leaders aware of the shadow they cast.
  • But every decision leader makes casts a shadow and promoting somebody, for example, for the good revenue numbers that has customer complaints standing against him or her is a decision… De-prioritizing customers when something needs to be launched quickly, that’s a decision and all of these decisions cast a shadow.
  • Trying to find more ways of getting leaders make leaders aware of the fact that they are not acting in a customer centric way in many cases, is I think one of the big things
  • Keep people relearning about what customer experience is and why it’s important and don’t necessarily trust the stated commitments that you’re hearing about.

“One of the first thing I have on the priority docket for CX leaders needs to be to find ways, without losing your job, to making the leaders aware of the shadow they cast.” @maxieschmidt on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast, your host, Gregorio Uglioni, will have small discussions with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope will enjoy the next episode.

Ladies and gentlemen, tonight is really a big, big pleasure. I have Maxie Schmidt from Forrester together with me. Hi Maxie, how are you?

Maxie Schmidt 0:29
Hi Gregorio, very well, how are you?

Gregorio Uglioni 0:32
Very well, it’s really a pleasure, I am really happy to have you on my podcast, I asked you several months ago to join, but we never find an appointment. And now we have it and you are live together with me. And therefore I’m really, really happy that we can start this conversation. It’s all about value that we deliver to the customer, not with delivered to the business, but to the customer. But before we deep dive in this topic, Maxie, could you please introduce yourself,

Maxie Schmidt 0:59
of course, and part of the introduction is that I have to correct you on that value delivery thing a little bit later. But as you could hear from that part of the introduction, I am German. I am VP, Principal Analyst at Forrester. And if you don’t know, Forrester, it’s a research and advisory firm. So basically, my job is to think about, think about topics to talk to practitioners about topics, and then produce content, thought leadership, speeches, around topics. And that’s all around the topic of customer experience, and specifically customer experience measurement, and the idea of value for customer. So those are the kinds of things that I really care about customer experience in value for customer. I’ve been at Forrester for 10 years. And before that I was in pricing Consulting at Simon Kucher and partners. And before that I was in academia in Germany.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:01
Thank you very much, Maxie. And therefore I am here because I wanted to learn from you and the audience want to learn from you What’s this value for customer is. Therefore extremely happy. But as you described your job, it looks like as the perfect job, you’re thinking about ideas in the customer experience work, you validate them, and then you share them with a broader audience. It’s really interesting, correct?

Maxie Schmidt 2:23
Yes, I think you described my job better than I did. So thank you very much. It is a it’s a really interesting job because I get to talk to a lot of people about their customers problems and challenges. So I get a good sense of what people are doing, but they’re not doing and then part of the fun of the job, as an analyst at Forrester is to say, here are the gaps. And this is what we should be thinking. So for example, in 2005, I wrote a report about the going beyond surveys and customer experience, right back then there was a new thing people can think about it. But versus going all these surveys, I don’t think that’s possible. But you can you can possibly do this and be so successful by having so many surveys. So I said, You know what, I should really look into that more. And the same thing with the value for customer topic. And we can talk about, but in more detail. But that also came about by talking to a lot of practitioners thinking about the research that I know from my background and considering what has to be next in customer experience to be more successful.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:23
Thank you, Maxie. It means I will not share with you my survey after this interview.

Maxie Schmidt 3:30
bacuse I’ll give you feedback on it

Gregorio Uglioni 3:32
thank you very much. Joking aside, perhaps before we started deep diving, everything would what you are doing. Which are the values that drives you in life.

Maxie Schmidt 3:45
The values that drive me in life… I am very much for justice and and I’ve really liked when people do as they say, I and also I think that everybody should always do their best. So maybe that last one is a value that sometimes leads us astray because it leads to perfectionism. But I do believe that we should all do our best in whatever we do in our professional and personal lives. Right. And as I said also earlier, I believe in fairness and justice. So I believe in the fact that people should have the same access to to resources that that though everybody should have similar access to resources.

Gregorio Uglioni 4:32
Thank you, Maxie. And I think as a CX professional, we all share the same values that that you have what you mentioned, I think it’s the keys for success in every business but also as as a human being. You mentioned something earlier in the beginning of our discussion, it’s about your analyzing different topics and before we deep dive speaking about value for customer, what are the main topics that are discussed nowadays in the CX Landscape industry?

Maxie Schmidt 5:02
That’s a really broad question, right? Because the interesting thing is that customer experience isn’t like this, this one dimensional thing right there customer experience, people who work in many different departments, some customer experience, people who work in the customer experience department, others work in marketing, others work in tech, others work in customer service. So the topics that have been discussed, of course, differ by that. And I’ll also admit that, of course, I am much more exposed to topics that I cover, because those topics that customers of Forrester and CX professionals are talking to me about. But that said, is that there is, I think, a to two kinds of streams of topics here more about. So the one is all about that value topic. And now, I mean, the value of customer experience, the value that customer experiences bring to the business, there’s so much talk about it, I’ve been even getting a bit of disenchanted with it, because it’s it’s an ongoing struggle to prove that customer experience should be taken seriously. Which then leads to this very odd place where customer experience people are trying to be so numbers driven, and so into measuring everything and justifying it that they kind of forget about what’s important about customer experience to to humans, right. So we’re focusing so much on measurement and business case that we’re forgetting that our job is customer experience, people is it to make sure that the human has a place in the company that our organizations understand that they serve a human being right, that has emotions that has goals. So that to me is really kind of an interesting thing about what’s being talked about, and what does this lead to, but it’s this kind of like the CX accountants, right? That, to me is an observation that I’ve made over the last two, three years as for trying to become more of a business discipline, when losing some of that some of what makes CX.

Gregorio Uglioni 6:56
I think I really like this idea of CX accountants, because what I don’t understand are we all don’t don’t understand this, why there are no HR accountants, why they are not HR, marketing accountants that they need to prove, why do we really need to prove everything? And I think this is a big, big question, I will not ask that question to you. Because you will say it’s really a broad question, and we will invest the next 10 hours. And let’s really deep dive in one of the big the hot topics that you are covering, since years, and this is the idea of value, you told me at the beginning the I mentioned something not correctly, and therefore I will end over directly to you and not to make any additional mistakes, you said something about perfectionist, and therefore I will hand over that to you.

Maxie Schmidt 7:46
Right. So by the way, I forgot to say one of my values is kindness. And apparently, I did not live up to that just now. So um, the the topic of value is really, really important topic in everybody who does customer experience and in companies too. But most times when we talk about value, they’re very self result as organizations think about the value that customers bring to the business in the form of revenue or lifetime value or advocating for us. There is I don’t want to mention the name now. But there is a very big financial services company who has in their goals that customers should recommend us. That’s their goal, not to help customers lead better lives or make customers happier, but customers should recommend us. So that kind of value conversation happens a lot. And what gets lost is that customers will not be valuable to a business if the business isn’t valuable to customers. And that’s a topic of value for customers. And here is where the delivering pride comes in. The delivering value for customers is a bit of a misnomer. And it is a misnomer because you cannot deliver value to a customer value is a perception of the customer as they use a product or service. The product or service might give them value, or they might get value from it. Or they might not depending on who they are. Like in a recent blog, I had a very, very simplistic example of Spotify. If you are vinyl lover, a Spotify app does not give you deliver value to you. If you like to curate playlists on the road on your mobile phone, then Spotify does, you get what you get value value from Spotify, but there is no value inherent in a product that can somehow be delivered to the customer. Right? That’s, that’s that’s why I’m trying to get us all to think differently about the idea of value and delivering it because the language matters, right? The way that we talk about things matters. It shows what our priorities are. It shows how we’re thinking and sometimes Let’s talk about you can’t deliver value because that is the perception. People say, Maxie, it’s just semantics. But semantics is about meaning. And I’m sure that you really want everybody to understand what you mean. And you want that the people understand things the same way that you do. That’s why these words matter. And that’s why we can talk about helping our customers create value, but not really about delivering value. Since value is a perception.

Gregorio Uglioni 10:25
You see, we can we can learn every time something. And first of all, I think it’s super easy example that you mentioned about Spotify, it really totally makes sense, because now we can understand the different values that a service or product deliver. And this is something we are going to discuss, but also, in which context, Sam, because in one context, it brings value to me in another context, perhaps not. And also being the same person month in a different context, it brings value or it doesn’t bring value. But before we deep dive in, in the perception, which type or expressions of value, do you do you use it for at Forrester? That way,

Maxie Schmidt 11:05
you’re spot on context matters a lot, right in in value perceptions. So when you talk about that value for customer, I think what you have to keep in mind is that the customer is a human being. I know I’ve said this before, but we do seem to forget it. The customer as a human being has like multifaceted needs. And that’s why the value that a customer gets from doing business with the company also is multifaceted. At Forrester, we talked about four dimensions of value, the first dimension is economic value. So that’s all about the money that you can gain or that you don’t have to spend. So think about that predictable prices and costs. Or think about having a teenager saving money or getting something for free. Right. So that’s economic value. The second dimension is functional value. That’s all about the usefulness, the usefulness of products and services, the usefulness of the buying process. And usefulness is the help that you’re getting. As you’re as you’re trying to use these products or buy them embedded with products or services, I should say. The third dimension is the experiential value. And that’s all about the interactions you have with people make the courtesy of people get you feel understood. It’s also about the kind of this design and sensory allure of a website or products that you’re interacting with. And then the fourth dimension is said symbolic value. And that’s all about the meaning that a customer gets from doing business with a company. And that could be about oneself. So self affirmation, for example, the financial services company has, has helped me understand better how to manage my finances, I feel more competent. So that could be part of that meaning that symbolic value, that could also be status, prestige, it can be a sense of belonging. And it can be sense of I’m allowed to support I’m able to support others. So there’s these four dimensions, economic value, functional value, experiential value, and symbolic value.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:01
And do I understand well, also, as we were speaking about context, throughout a journey, the customer will have different have different contexts, and therefore they will feel different value from from the service of the product, it means each change, it can change throughout throughout the journey. Is that correct? How do you see how do you see the link between these values, dimension and journeys.

Maxie Schmidt 13:28
So the two links, the first thing is that then you’re thinking about the journey. And that’s all assuming we meet a true customer journey that has a customer goal at the heart of it right? If you were to plot that journey, you could look at what kind of let’s think about it as a curve, right? On the top part of the curve, you have value being created for the customer. And the bottom part is when values being destroyed, right. And you can see how the journey, you might have a value creation than the destruction and so on in different types of value. So for example, think about home lending, right, you’re trying to buy a home and you need to get a mortgage. In the beginning, you might look for options and find some mortgage provider and you’re really excited and you feel very good that you were able to find the house that you want to buy, right, then you have to submit all kinds of documentation and that is really effortful destroying functional value, right? Then you get a pre approval, and that’s great, you have found a good rate, economic value, but then you get declined despite the pre approval, right. So again, lack of functional value. So along the whole journey, you can see what the customer is doing and how that in turn creates or destroys value. But the end what’s important is that your value highs are in some greater than the value valleys if you so

Gregorio Uglioni 14:54
and if I understand well, you developed also a small process, how to understand that it’s a three step process that you already that you shared already wants about how to create it. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Maxie Schmidt 15:07
So that’s about how to measure the value that you’re creating. Right. And it’s very interesting, I set out to write a report how to measure value for customers. And whenever the first interviews, I realized the problem isn’t measuring it, the problem is understanding it, right. So a lot of companies have still that perception that there’s some inherent value in the kinds of products or services that they provide, as opposed to thinking about the value as a perception, right? And then you ask them, what value do you think your customers are getting from doing business with you? They often don’t know, because they haven’t thought about it. So the first step is to do qualitative research into what is the value that we’re providing to our customers, or that our customers are getting from us? See, I have to correct myself to that was really one one great example there of John Deere financial. John Deere is a financial is a financial services arm of John Deere, who helps to finance tools for for farmers. And what they looked at segments of customers, and they found that there’s one segment x, small farmers, the same size of revenue, the same kind of technology investment, but when they probed into what matter to these people, some of them it was about, you know, making money through farming, and others it was farming is a way of life. And our family has done this forever and ever. Thanks for that kind of research, understanding, what is the role that our products and services play in a customer’s lives? That’s the kind of thing you need to do in order to be able to measure value for customers. And then from there, it’s relatively easy to define metrics for that, right? Because if you know, what are these value drivers, for customers across all four dimensions, not just focusing on functional value, then you can define metrics for those. And then you can use those metrics to make decisions about how to optimize value. So that’s the that’s a short, short version of that report, and how I got to write it a little bit differently than I had estimated before.

Gregorio Uglioni 17:07
It totally makes sense. And thank you very much for for your management summary. And now we understand and we know that you are human, because you did all these small mistakes that you corrected.

Maxie Schmidt 17:18
But that’s what I mean, right? It’s the language is so important. And I have to also catch myself, but I do.

Gregorio Uglioni 17:26
And now, but feeling about your reaction about next question, because the verb I’m going to use will not make you happy. But is there a way to really change the mindset? And then really maximizing the value for customer? Is it possible? How can we do that?

Maxie Schmidt 17:46
Yes, I think there is. Unfortunately, it starts by being selective. So we talked about earlier that there are these these these these value dimensions? And why do I talk about being selected? Right? One of the questions I often get is this, which of these value dimensions is most important? And I don’t think that that’s the most important question to ask. I think the more important question to ask is, which drivers in that value dimension are most important for your customers? Think about something like a grocery store, we all know this, right? Think about like, ID, a German company, and a really fancy high end, organic supermarket around the corner, right? They can both create symbolic value, it may trigger symbolic value of competence and are feeling savvy that you found a deal, you found these actually branded products that cheaper, and you’re quite smart, right? The organic supermarket metric, the value of who I’m supporting the environment, I feel really good about myself. But both create meaning. And most companies focused on the economic and functional value. My recommendation is to think about what are these experiential and symbolic value dimensions that can help you differentiate from competition. And that’s, that’s what maximizing value is about. It’s about understanding value more fully in all of these dimensions, instead of just focusing on Easy, easy, easy to just put a functional value. Now. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be trying to make things easier for customers. But as everybody does that aware is different GQ interview. And that’s when we’re talking about maximizing value to the customer. By the way, I am not sure yet whether maximizing value for customer is the right way of talking about it, or whether it’s balancing the value that the customer is getting from doing business with us the value that they’re getting from doing business with that customer. It’s kind of like a win win situation that you’re trying to get to, like a customer is there’s this really interesting quote from from relationship theory is if everybody in the relationship is secretly pleased that they got the better end of the stick, the better deal that’s a great relationship right to the customers. You’d be secretly pleased that so amazing to do business with a company I love, it’s like getting so much out of it, and the business could be thinking the same right, then that’s that’s a thing. But that sweet spot is

Gregorio Uglioni 20:12
I think this is the difference between being in family and doing something with the family and being in business. Again, in business, you want always to create value for both sides, giving and receiver and plus where you are at home, you’re a mom, and my father, I don’t care if I get value, if my son get value, or the most value, when we’re playing together, he should win because he is super happy. And then at the end, I am also happy. And therefore I think this way of, of thinking about value in the business totally makes sense. Because at the end, you are optimizing and creating the best possible balance between what you get and what what we get. Because if we if one of the two parties lose than then it’s a big issue. Perhaps it’s

Maxie Schmidt 20:59
interesting that they say that though, because I would reinterpret what you said. And I would say you are getting value from your son’s big smile and happiness as you’re eating ice cream with them. You’re getting that symbolic value of while I did something for my son, I’m really happy that I did that. I’m a good father, I have a good family dynamic. You’re getting something out of it. And I think the point that we sometimes forget is that customers feel these things too. Right? They feel proud to be part of the company. For example, I feel proud that I own stuff from Patagonia, because Patagonia, they make a pearl right. But a Konya really goes all out and protects the environment. And it makes me proud to wear their stuff, right. So I’m getting something in addition to just the garment that I’m buying from them. So I think it’s actually interesting that you mentioned the family. But I do think that there’s this there’s more parallels and differences.

Gregorio Uglioni 21:52
Thinking Thinking about it, I need to say yes, you’re right, because at the end, I want steady wins, because then I’m super happy that is happy and smiling. And therefore endeavor, thinking about and correcting myself as you did earlier. It’s totally makes sense. I was thinking more from an economic value, because you have a business only if you’re selling your products, your services to a customer, and therefore I was thinking more about the different types of value and thinking about symbolic value. It’s, it’s for sure, we are all happy. And then and then and then it works. Perhaps you mentioned Patagonia, but perhaps do you have any other companies that is focusing really on these four different dimension of value that that you can share?

Maxie Schmidt 22:43
a of companies are focusing on some of them just because by the way that the brand is this the thing is one one important thing that we shouldn’t forget when you’re thinking about when you want to play what value drivers do you want to help deliver on right? You need to think about what’s my brands, but doesn’t brands. And so for example, Aldi that I said earlier, isn’t going to be able to deliver on, I have these amazing interactions with people, potentially, right? Because that’s just not what the brand is strong at. So if you think about what’s your brand strong hat, what do your customers want, and vice versa competitive whitespace? So there are a few companies who are doing this really well. So you can think about some examples in b2b and b2c. Right? We already talked about Patagonia, which is pizza season, maybe let me talk about a b2b example. They had talked, this is a truck leasing company. And they were realizing that a lot of the the competitors were also doing things quickly and not too pricey. But they also realized that the interactions that these truck drivers have with the people in the, in the what’s it called in the workshop body shop that really drove value, right? So it wasn’t just about is it this achievement is a trick enough, but am I going to have good interaction with a person who manages, manages the body shop, or who helps me serve as a chocolate I’m having. So that’s one example of expanding into one of these dimensions that is often not as kind of as as, as present, let’s put it that way.

Gregorio Uglioni 24:26
And I think based on the fact that it’s also a perception, but I think it’s also related to the different generations and which are the values of the different generations that that we have thinking about younger people and focusing more on different types of values that have generations that or Silver Surfer and, and therefore I think it’s also important to really understand the context about about the value that that you create.

Maxie Schmidt 24:54
And we have really good speaking of that, but you had a pretty good example. I just did some qualitative research with the consumers and one quote in their qualitative research really hit home, I’m going to anonymize it. But I don’t think ever helped. Much. There was this this person who said that the reason why they bought a computer at a more extensive firm thinking about bananas and apples, right, was the training that that firm offered. So in this case, it doesn’t mean this medicine, it was Apple, right. And the they offered training to make this person more competent. And that was reason that he spent more money on the computer because he Silver Surfer wanted to feel competent with the computer, and really appreciated how Apple help them do that. And that, to me, is such a great way of a great example of a company who has tapped into the needs of their customers and thinking about what, how can we deliver on multiple of these value drivers? How can we help customers realize several value along several drivers, instead of just focusing on one of them being the cheapest, for example,

Gregorio Uglioni 26:00
and what you’re saying, That was a big discussion that we had, because we were also discussing about what and why they are why Apple is offering trainings for using the computer. It’s everything, it’s clear, and if not, you can watch a YouTube video. But they are fully booked. And it’s really, I went to the shop, I asked because I was interested to understand the process not too interested into the training. And they said they’re fully booked. And it’s not only Silver Surfer, but there are different generation that are going there. And this is additional value delivered that that totally, that’s totally makes sense. I would have 2000 additional questions, but being taking care of your time. The last, the last question related to the content, and then we can we can come to the to the end of this game. If we think about in 10 years time from now, what are we discussing about in customer experience field?

Maxie Schmidt 26:58
So do you want to hear the the optimistic or the pessimistic version of this? Maxie Schmidt? View, okay. So if I if I extrapolate from the past into the future, we shall be still discussing the very same things 10 years from now. Because the topics that we’re discussing right now, like value for customer journey measurement, because I’ve really two big topics that I’ve talked about every day, that are super new, right? The other day, somebody said to me now, isn’t this all just the old stuff, but use new words for it? And I said, is that? So? If that is so why did you have to talk about it? Why are we still not doing it? So I do believe that customer experience has a fundamental challenge in getting stuff done, and has a fundamental challenge, specifically because of the leadership. And so I think unless customer experience, people will be more successful in actually getting leaders to understand that they’re not being sincere about your commitments, even if they say they’re committed, we’ll still be talking about the exact same things. But small things will change, right? But they’ll still be talking about, oh, why aren’t enough traction with what we’re doing as a as a professional. So I am hopeful. But I’m also, as I said, looking a little bit about the little bit of the past, I’m trying to change it and everybody in the in the in the industry is trying to change it. And I guess I guess together, let me say, let me say something optimistic together, we can do it. Let’s start by changing the way we talk about customers and customer value that’s changed the way we talk about journeys and remind people of our journeys are really supposed to be. So if we all make sure that we keep ourselves honest. And then we keep our companies on this, I think we can make some progress.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:46
Thank you, Maxie. And now we’re really coming to the last part of this discussion. And there are three questions that I’m always asking the first one, is there a book that you say it helped you during your career or for your private life?

Maxie Schmidt 29:04
Yes. So now I’m falling prey to the recency bias. But I want to recommend the book to the to all of you who are listening, that I just thought was amazing. It’s called Making Numbers Count by Chip Heath. He’s the guy who wrote switch. And he also wrote the power of moments. The book when you use Forrester data actually so that book Making numbers count. Amazing. It is all about how can we make the numbers such that humans can relate to them? And it’s really eye opening if you use these principles as I prepared for my keynote speech for our London London customer, customer experience forum at the end of June. It’s amazing and especially in customer experience, a professional Have you tried to keep the humans in the picture? To make sure that by turning everything into number We don’t leech the humans out of the picture. I think about, for example, one of the most important metrics customer experience NPS, right. If I tell you the NPS is 42, that’s a sanitized as it gets. It doesn’t get any more sanitized? Actually, that’s a number that’s meaningless. It doesn’t. There’s there’s no content to it. But how about I tell you the the number of people who are detractors could fill a football stadium. Now, suddenly, somebody has a context to it, right. So that kind of that kind of thinking, and there’s a lot of ideas in this book of how to how to do that better, and how to use the power of 100. Use the power of baskets, I can really highly recommend it.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:40
Thank you very much. But I think in the football stadium, we’re the promoters and not the detractors, hopefully is somebody would like to contact you what’s the best way,

Maxie Schmidt 30:54
the best place to recommend email at M Schmidt, the D and the T @forrester.com. Forrester with the double R, or just look me up on LinkedIn, I think there’s only one Maxie Schmidt.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:07
I will share all the contact details also in the show notes. Therefore, we will ensure that we type your name in the correct way. Thank you very much. And the last question, it’s Maxie golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new, that you would leave to the audience.

Maxie Schmidt 31:27
I’ve been lately really struck by something that I said earlier, the belief of leaders that they are customer centric, that they’re supporting an organization in being customer centric, and CX people actually believing it. We have some recent data where CX people say that they feel the leaders are believing and acting accordingly. True commitment. Looking at some of the customer experience, people I’ve talked to, I don’t think it’s true. I think leaders don’t know enough about what it means to be customer centric. They don’t know what they need to do, and they don’t know the personal shadow they cost. So I think one of the first things I have on the on the priority docket for customer experience leaders needs to be to find ways to without losing your job, making the leaders aware of the shadow the cost. And I think that’s a that’s a that’s a that’s a phrase from Senn Delaney, culture training. But every decision leader makes cast a shadow and promoting somebody, somebody, for example, for the good revenue numbers that has customer complaints standing against him or her is a decision, right? De-prioritizing customers when something needs to be launched quickly, that’s a decision and all of these decisions cast a shadow. So trying to find more ways of getting leaders make leaders aware of the fact that they are not acting in a customer centric way in many cases, is I think one of the big things and that’s kind of my, my nugget right kind of keep people relearning about what customer experience is and why it’s important and don’t necessarily trust the stated commitments that you’re hearing about.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:05
Thank you very much, Maxie, if this was the last goal that you scored on the CX goalkeeper podcast, it was really outstanding. Thank you very much for your time.

Maxie Schmidt 33:17
Thank you so much for having me, Gregorio.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:19
And I am super optimistic about the future because we leaders, CX leaders like you, I am quite sure that in future we will discuss the right thing, and we will do the right thing. Thank you very much, Maxie. It was a great pleasure. And I hope that the audience enjoyed this discussion as much as I did. It was really a great one. Thank you very much.

Maxie Schmidt 33:38
same here

Gregorio Uglioni 33:40
If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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