Diversity and Inclusion in Customer Experience with Rebecca Brown – E93

Episode released on: 26. September 2022

Diversity and Inclusion in Customer Experience with Rebecca Brown Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Rebecca Brown

LinkedIn Headline: Award-Winning Customer Experience Consultant | Anti-bullying Advocate | Keynote Speaker | Feature Writer


  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:32 Rebecca’s introduction
  • 03:10 Rebecca’s values
  • 04:21 What’s your understanding of diversity and inclusion in customer experience?
  • 06:13 Are people only speaking about it, or are also applying the lesson that we can learn from diversity and inclusion?
  • 09:02 What is the value added of diversity and inclusion?
  • 13:14 Who is the owner of diversity & inclusion?
  • 15:25 how could we measure the improvement in this area?
  • 18:34 do you have a good example that you say this is nowadays best in practice in diversity and integration?
  • 20:35 how can I contribute to D&I on a daily basis?
  • 23:31 The future of CX
  • 25:23 Rebecca’s book suggestion
  • 27:10 Rebecca’s contact details
  • 27:29 Rebecca’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Rebecca’s Contact Details:

Her book suggestion:

  • Crucial Conversations by Joseph Grenny, Kerry Patterson, Ron McMillan, Al Switzler and Emily Gregory 

Rebecca’s Golden Nugget:

  • One of the biggest lessons in customer experience that applies to every business is to just understand that most issues in your customer journey happen when something happens that your customer wasn’t expecting, or when something doesn’t happen that they were expecting. So if you can try and really clearly understand your customer expectations, the chances are that you’ll be able to reduce the friction within the customer journey quite quickly.

“if you can try and clearly understand your customer expectations, the chances are that you’ll be able to reduce the friction within the customer journey quite quickly.” @think_wow on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast #diversity #inclusion #D&I


Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast. Your host, Gregorio Uglioni, will have small discussions with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope you will enjoy the next episode.

Ladies and gentlemen, tonight. It’s really a big pleasure because I have Rebecca Brown together with me. Hi Rebecca, how are you?

Rebecca Brown 0:27
Hi, I’m great. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:32
It’s a great pleasure from my side to have you on this podcast and to start discussing about diversity and inclusion. But before we start deep diving in this extremely important topic, we would like to learn a bit more about you. And therefore the first user question, could you please introduce yourself, Rebecca?

Rebecca Brown 0:51
Yeah, absolutely. So Hi, I’m Rebecca. And I co founded think, Wow, a sales and customer experience consultancy with my husband and business partner in 2019. Since that time, we have worked with businesses like Save the Children, HubSpot, and we’ve had a fantastic time we we’ve loved every minute of it, getting to know the rest of the customer experience community, winning some awards for some of our clients in the CX awards, and UK business awards. So that’s basically me, I’m also a mum of two smallest children getting bigger every day. Got a dog and two cats. So yeah,

Gregorio Uglioni 1:28
I think this is what you’re saying is really interesting. And sorry, I need to ask this question. How’s it possible that you can also work together with your husband?

Rebecca Brown 1:39
Do you know what I think it’s, it can’t be for everybody. But for those who it works well, for it’s a fantastic thing. For us, it’s even brought us closer together, because I think we always had respect for each other professionally, but actually getting to see each other in Action Day in and day out getting to see each other handle really difficult situations, but really well. It just brings us closer together. And we really enjoy it. I couldn’t wish for a better business partner really, because he thinks the way I think he has just the right amount of customer respect in him, which is rare in a sales leader, which is effectively what his background is. But he’s always approached sales from a relationship building perspective, which is why he’s always done so well in his career. So yeah, I think it’s not for everyone. And you know, in the first six months, I would say, we definitely had our teething issues getting used to communicating in a business way as opposed to on a personal level. Definitely leaving work at the office was a challenge until we got an office. And now we can just close the door on the office when we leave at the end of the day. And that makes a big difference.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:45
It will be extremely unpolite. And therefore I will not ask who is the boss? Therefore, let’s stop with this question. And I think in in 20 years, then you have two additional additional employees, or your children and the complete family work for the same purpose.

Rebecca Brown 3:01
Yeah, no, I would love that I have no idea what our kids will end up being but if they wanted to join the family business, I’d be fully up for that.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:10
Sure. And you already mentioned family, and you mentioned already respect. And therefore my question would be which values drives you in life?

Rebecca Brown 3:20
Yeah, I think family is right up there. For us. One of the reasons that we founded think well was because we wanted to change the face of the UK customer experience, but we wanted to do it to our own set of values. And I think being able to balance that work life, family balance was really important to us. So yeah, I think family, empathy comes really high up on the list. And that’s pretty handy and customer experience as well. So it works works well together. And then I think we’ve got sort of a separate set of values for the business, that we believe passionately in ourselves, but potentially don’t transfer too much into our personal lives, which are to add value, to put the customer first and to make it as easy as possible. And I think, you know, by working through all of those values, from the very beginning, we’ve been able to create a really clear brand identity. And we’ve become known for those things, which is really nice. It’s exactly what we were hoping for. And we didn’t even dare to dream that it would happen as quickly as it has,

Gregorio Uglioni 4:21
I would say not only know but also extremely successful and for congratulation for what you are doing. And I think the sky is the only limit that that you have. And I also for you that that will work really, really well. Now we know you the player of today of this game a bit better, and now we can start the game. Today we are playing on the playing field, diversity and inclusion. And perhaps before we start deep diving, it’s right. It’s correct. Who is doing good and not what’s your view? What’s your understanding of diversity and inclusion in customer experience?

Rebecca Brown 4:59
Yeah, I think That’s a really good place to start. Because I think the one thing I would want to be really clear on is that I am not a diversity and inclusion expert. I am a diversity and inclusion enthusiast. I am a customer experience expert. And I fundamentally believe that customer experience should have diversity and inclusion at its core. But that’s actually something that I’ve only really recently come to as a belief. I think it’s you know, there’s the age old saying, You don’t know what you don’t know, until you find out you didn’t know it. And actually, as someone who believes passionately in equality, and feels very much that my whole life I’ve worked to support various different minority groups, is actually only since working with our clients Save the Children recently, and having a dedicated diversity and inclusion expert in the customer experience project, that it really opened my eyes to just how much I still don’t know. So I think it’s a crucial factor for every single business. And I think every single business should be proactively looking to build diversity and inclusion in. But I would like to just caveat, the fact that all of my answers today will be sort of my personal opinion and my personal experience, not the kind of verbatim from an expert in D&I.

Gregorio Uglioni 6:13
I think this is, this is what we need. It’s passionate people and not the best expert possible that knows everything. But I think this is something that we should discuss and we should act on. And this is also linked on my next question. I don’t want also to be unpolite. But a lot of people in the customer experience community are speaking about customer experience, you should do this, you should do that. You should try this. And you should try that. But nobody’s really acting doing is doing the doing. And therefore my question is in diversity and inclusion in customer experience, it’s even more complicated. But I know that a lot of people are speaking about it. What’s your view, people are only speaking about it, or are also applying the lesson that we can learn from diversity and inclusion?

Rebecca Brown 7:02
I think that’s a really tough question. And I think it varies massively from industry to industry. Some industries are much, much further ahead, the diversity and inclusion, certainly sort of government sectors, charitable sectors, it’s been a very core focus for a lot longer within some of these industries. And so therefore, I think you can start to see some of these tangible changes. But I think like with anything, it takes time to actually see the fruits of your labor. So it may well be that lots more organizations are really prioritizing D&I. But it takes time to actually see that because what you can’t do is say, right, that’s it. We want more representation from the bain community in our organization, therefore, we’re going to fire 50% of our organization and rehire, it doesn’t work. That way, you have to slowly progress these things over time, it has to feel sort of deliberate, but organic as well, in my opinion. So I think that there’s definitely a lot of really good intent. And certainly from the people that we’ve worked alongside who are talking about D&I, there are some significant strategies going on behind the scenes, there are some real plans of action to help make those plans a reality. What we also find is that there are some organizations who it’s not even on their radar for yet. So I think that’s probably where the biggest work has to be put in is to sort of say, like, this isn’t just something for large organizations, this is something you can build in from the very beginning of your journey. And I can say that very easily is that here, as a team of two, both of us are white, both of us are British, you know, the only diversity we really have is the fact that I’m a woman, and he’s a man. But what we do know is that as we grow, think, wow, we will be doing it with a very firm eye on D&I. And we’re lucky now that through our customer experience work, we have, we know some really talented diversity and inclusion specialists who we can consult who we can work closely with to make sure that we create the right policies, the right processes, and that we make sure that everything’s as inclusive as possible.

Gregorio Uglioni 9:02
Thank you, I think what what you’re saying it’s totally makes sense. And the maturity of this topic, it’s still developing props to make that really clear to me, but also to my audience to our audience, is, what is the value added of diversity and inclusion? And perhaps, to make it even more complicated to challenge you, I think, also from the two different aspects internally in the company, the customer experience team, but also then thinking about our customers.

Rebecca Brown 9:34
Yeah, and actually, I think I would probably push it out further and say there are probably three aspects within the customer experience team, it’s within our customers, but I think there’s also the internal customer experience for your colleagues to consider and when I when I talked about that, I think it’s, it’s important to explain what I mean by that, because I’m not talking about employee experience. employee experience applies to everybody in the organization. It’s something very much driven from the top down own internal customer experience applies when you have an element of the organization or department that exists to serve the rest of the business, for example, an HR function or an IT service. So it’s a very different relationship, and they have SLAs, internally that they’ve got to stick to. And I think it’s really important to build D&I into internal services like that, even more so perhaps, than the external customer. The value add, I think, that the naive part of me likes to say, well, it’s just the right thing to do. You know, why wouldn’t we create a diverse and inclusive organization, it feels good for everybody, everybody feels safe, it feels like a pleasant place to work. But I know that that isn’t necessarily enough for all organizations, they need to see the business case, which hopefully, we’ll move away from in the future. But I think there have been some significant research into the increased creativity that can arise when you have a diverse workforce. increased empathy, you know, and that’s, that’s crucial for a customer experience function. You often read of customer experiences that are designed exclusively for women by men, or vice versa. And that that feels programmatic at a glance, it’s not impossible. You know, we obviously designed services for children, and those can’t be designed by children. So we, you know, there’s a there’s a degree where you have to say, you have to just try and understand your users needs. And that’s obviously where customer experience and user experience are really important. But I think, for me, you can’t have a truly happy, truly productive workforce, if there are any issues with diversity and inclusion. The reason I say that is because not only will you not naturally get that increased creativity, that increased empathy. But actually, if you haven’t deliberately approached a D&I policy, my opinion, and as I say, this is my opinion, as a layperson, not as an expert, is that you will naturally have hired some people who are a sort of a minority group, whether that’s a disability, whether it’s their background, or their culture. And if you haven’t deliberately catered for those people, it can feel like you’ve almost deliberately not catered for them. And that’s when people start to feel a bit left out, that’s when they feel like it’s not a safe space for them to talk about any reasonable adjustments they might need. And that can be a scary, it can be a scary thing to even think about. Alongside being a woman, I also suffer from endometriosis, which, until very recently, was not something that would be considered as a disability. So it felt very dangerous to bring that up with a potential employer during the recruitment stage. In case it was something that was a bit of a red flag, I wouldn’t get much further. And so I always felt conflicted. Do I tell them at this point, do I not I don’t want to be deceitful. But equally, I don’t want to not get the job. And I think that that’s just a very small example of how not deliberately building in D&I to everything you’re doing within your organization, within your teams within your organization, and then within your customer research as well. It can have a massive impact.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:14
First of all, thank you very much also for sharing your personal story, because this may make it make it really real and understandable for for the audience and perfect for everybody. I think what you’re saying it’s extremely important. And you said that it’s important also to prove the value of diversity and inclusion in the two different categories that that you mentioned. And therefore, the question that I would always really the owner of diversity and inclusion in a company in a business and in customer experience.

Rebecca Brown 13:48
Yeah, I think that’s a really good question. My gut feeling having been through the journey I’ve been through personally in the last sort of year, and, you know, the the multiple education points that have come up, is that really, the owner needs to be a D&I expert. Not every business will be able to afford to have a full time D&I expert, but there are some fantastic contractors out there who you can consult with. And I think, you know, it needs to be championed by almost everybody within the organization a bit like with customer experience, you can’t move that great big hurdle on your own. You need everybody to be on board with it. But you also need someone who’s dedicated focus is to not have to consider anything else because it’s very, very easy to start off with fantastic intentions, but to be almost blindsided by, you know, if you’re working with personas, for example, in customer experience, there’s a huge amount of value that can come from working with personas, it can really help to bring that customer to life. It can help you demonstrate a story. But what if that persona is just not taking into account any diversity and inclusion? It could absolutely distract the customer experience team from making sure that what they’re developing isn’t a one size fits all, sort of deliver to the masses is actually something that will remove any barriers, remove any hurdles and be a truly inclusive service. So yeah, I think it’s as much as possible, I would recommend consulting with someone who really knows their subject inside and out and hasn’t had to be distracted by anything else. But to work collaboratively as a sort of cross functional project group, I suppose.

Gregorio Uglioni 15:25
And I think what you’re saying it’s, again, we need the expert for these topics that can help and improve that. And if you’re speaking about improvement, then we come on to the topic measurement. And you mentioned that, that you are probably not the best expert in this topic, but as based on the fact that it’s your passion, do your ideas how we could measure the improvement in this area?

Rebecca Brown 15:50
Yeah, and I think a lot of this has kind of come from working collaboratively with a D&I expert. So I’m quite confident to say, you know, whilst he’s gone, this is actually my original ideas, they are absolutely ways of working that we will take forward, then think, wow. And I think one of the first things I would say is that, if you are wanting to build D&I into customer experience, then there’s no better place to start than by having inclusion and diversity, as a design principle for what you’re working on. And those can sit alongside other design principles like making it easy, making intuitive, inspiring confidence, whatever you want your design principles to be. But essentially, if you are journey mapping, and you have mapped out every single step of your journey, you maybe have the corresponding internal process to map it against. And then you’re starting to look at that emotional sentiment. If you have diversity inclusion, as a design principle, with some really strong sense, check questions that help you really test yourself and push and challenge yourself as a project team, then you can apply those sense check questions to every single step of that customer journey. And I’m talking about things like are there any unnecessary barriers at this point that could prevent this part of the process from being inclusive? Have we potentially applied any of our own bias at this stage? Are we working from data? Or are we working from assumption, and it’s, it’s really just about being really scrupulous with it and leaving no stone unturned? And that’s the point of customer journey mapping anyway, isn’t it to dive down into that detail, stop leaving everything to chance, and to make sure that you can pinpoint where there are problems, this may well be something that helps pinpoint that maybe there isn’t a customer pain point. But maybe there is a problem with with inclusion. So it does open up another element, it does open up another consideration you have to factor in and that’s why I think having permanent representation of someone who is championing D&I on the team is really important, because they can help make sure that that project stays on track. But then really, it’s about looking at what okay, what are your What are your organization’s wider D&I goals? And are we as a CX function, helping to achieve those goals, whether that’s increased retention of staff with disabilities, whether it’s actually just recruiting more people in who maybe have reasonable adjustments, whatever those targets are, it’s really important to align the CX project with those wider organizational goals. And that’s the same for every, every department really. So essentially, it shouldn’t really be treated any differently to how you would be liaising with key stakeholders from from any organization. It’s just I think it’s a very important factor and one that needs a little bit more deliberate thinking about

Gregorio Uglioni 18:34
I think what you’re saying it’s really interesting, because you’re at the end, it’s one additional principle that you can apply to different disciplines. It’s in the employee experience, it’s in the Human Resources is in customer experience. And perhaps as a customer, do you have a good example that you say this, this is nowadays best in practice in diversity and integration?

Rebecca Brown 18:59
Yeah, I mean, I think it is difficult to say this is this is now the example because obviously every industry has different customers, they have different needs, different expectations. But I think, for me, there are some really sort of simple basics that you can apply. Certainly, when it comes to a digital customer journey, for example, you know, checking to see well actually is our website friendly for people who are colorblind. I think it’s something like 12, one in one in every 12 men in the UK is colorblind. And I had no idea was as high as that. But actually, if your main brand colors are red, and green, and they’re on top of each other, are you actually is your is your website, even readable? Maybe not. The same goes I think, for actually the language and the terminology that you’re using on your website. The average reading age in the UK is 11, which sounds much worse than it is I think the maximum reading age only goes up to 13 or something. So even if you can read every word you’re at, that’s your reading age, so it’s not, you know, it’s not as bad as it sounds. But when you look at a lot of the websites out there, specifically, within certain industries, you’ll find a huge amount of industry terminology, really long winded explanations for things that could be said in a much simpler way. And actually, I think you can start by just turning your website into plain English making it as simple and easily accessible for people as you possibly can. It’s little tweaks like that, that should apply to every organization. Obviously, there will be other things that could apply to specific individual organizations. And that’s where I would really recommend working with a specialist.

Gregorio Uglioni 20:35
You are making me laughing because my preferred preferred language is legal English. You don’t understand anything, but you need to agree on that and sign. And therefore I can really understand what you’re saying. On one question, how is it possible to contribute? Or how can I contribute to d&i on a daily basis?

Rebecca Brown 21:05
It’s a really, really tough one. And I’ve definitely fallen foul of this in my own life, of actually sort of wanting to help, but almost being afraid to put my hand up and say, I don’t really know this topic very well. It feels like everybody should already know all the right answers to D&I they should know all the right terminologies, they should know all of the right protected characteristics, everything should already be there. So I think there’s a lot of shame around the fact that we’re just not there yet. And certainly, I have had to challenge myself hugely to to be able to say, look, I don’t I don’t know, I don’t have the answer, could someone educate me on this? And that’s the first thing I think that we could all do is to actually just admit that we don’t know at all. And that that’s actually not that bad, is it? Let’s face it, no one can know everything about everything. There will always be areas that we need to increase our knowledge on. And I think if we can be really open minded to the fact that we do need to increase our knowledge on diversity and inclusion and how we can build it into our processes and our organizations that the first step, I think the second step is to stop ourselves from being defensive when we get it wrong. Because we will get it wrong. No matter how hard we try and consult with the right people. No matter how hard we think we are aiming with the right the best intentions, there will be things that we assume we understand that we just don’t understand. And I think that it’s really important that if someone then says, Well, hang on a minute, you’ve got this wrong, you’ve offended me, or actually, what you’re saying could potentially be inflammatory. That won’t feel nice, it will feel awful. No one likes getting negative feedback. But it’s really important. We just say, Oh, my goodness, I’m sorry. Please tell me how I could do it better next time. And you know, that’s a tough one in itself, because actually, I’ve heard arguments that it isn’t the job of a minority to educate the majority. But equally, you know, where do we start in that case? So I think lots of self education is important, but trying to find reliable sources. And just Yeah, I guess generally, that open mindedness to the fact that we don’t yet know everything, we won’t ever know everything, but that we are all open to seeing that this is a priority, and that we do need to prioritize learning, I think that will hopefully help to start new things in it and a slightly more fast paced progress, which would be nice to see.

Gregorio Uglioni 23:31
Thank you very much. I think I really love what you’re saying. And also, thanks for all these things that you are giving us to be sure to not to forget diversity and inclusion. I think now we are coming to an end of the discussion. But I still have one important question to ask you during this game. And if we close our eyes, we are in 10 years from now. And we are speaking about customer experience. And I think based on what we’re discussing now related to diversity and inclusion, what you’re speaking about.

Rebecca Brown 24:04
Do you know it’s it’s a really tough one, isn’t it? But I think actually, for me, I suppose it’s a slightly unorthodox look at diversity and inclusion. But for me, what I would hope to see in 10 years time, is that customer experiences accessible to everybody whether or not it’s a large business or a small business, we are working really hard at think wow, to try and make sure that our services can be accessed by smaller businesses, and that for those who can’t even afford to have the basic services that we give away as much information free as possible so that we can hopefully help upskill and educate. But I think there’s still definitely a barrier. Customer Experience teams tend to exist in the much bigger organizations and it’s very much a battleground of the kind of giant, giant firms. I would love it if it could be made more accessible. If more customer experience professionals would speak in plain English to real business people. I think that would be fantastic too. There are lots out there who do it and some of them are some of my favorite people. But I think you do still occasionally stumble across a professional who uses a lot of that terminology in that industry jargon. And it’s because they know their stuff, they’re experts. But I think sometimes we forget that, you know, the modern business owner hasn’t learned the same things we have about customer experience. So we start talking about journey mapping, that might not mean as much to them as it does to us.

Gregorio Uglioni 25:23
I think what you’re saying is extremely important. And that’s what we are speaking about also business cases, and so on. You are speaking to a CFO, and you’re speaking about journey mapping, and don’t stop and say, Where are the numbers show? The case and then come back. And this is what’s really interesting. I was speaking with super senior guy in finance two weeks ago, and he said, I really like your videos, I enjoy looking at I don’t understand you. I, it means I, I feel that what you’re saying it’s important. But Mr. CFO, show me the data and speak my language. And therefore what you’re saying, it’s reinforced what what I learned last some weeks ago, from from this senior guy. Thank you very much for your time, we are coming to the in the last three, four minutes of the game. And I would like that you score again, some outstanding goals, as you did earlier. And the first question, is there a book that you would suggest to the audience that help you during your career or during your life?

Rebecca Brown 26:27
Yeah, absolutely. And this is one of my favorite books, I don’t know whether you can all see it there. Get the right angle there. But essentially, it isn’t a customer experience book. It is more of a relationships book. But it applies so much to customer experience. It applies to complaint handling to any conversations you have with stakeholders. It’s all about Crucial Conversations. It’s about dealing with conflict spotting the warning signs of conflict before it kind of grows. But yes, it’s called Crucial Conversations, tools for talking when stakes are high. And it’s by Patterson granny Macmillan and Switzer. That’s quite a mouthful. But yeah, I’d recommend it to anybody in business, regardless of what what position you fail, it’s a really useful, really useful book.

Gregorio Uglioni 27:10
Thank you very much. And if somebody would like to contact you, what’s the best way?

Rebecca Brown 27:15
LinkedIn is the best way… Yeah. If you just connect with me over on LinkedIn, probably the easiest way to find me is through thinkwow, because there are loads of Rebecca rounds out there. But feel free to message me on LinkedIn. And I’ll get back to you.

Gregorio Uglioni 27:29
Thank you very much. And now we are coming to the last question is Rebecca’s golden nugget is something that we discussed or something new, that you would like to leave to the audience?

Rebecca Brown 27:38
Yeah, I think, for me, one of the biggest lessons in customer experience that applies to just about every business is to just understand that most issues in your customer journey happen when something happens that your customer wasn’t expecting, or when something doesn’t happen that they were expecting. So if you can try and really clearly understand your customer expectations, the chances are that you’ll be able to reduce the friction within the customer journey quite quickly.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:04
Thank you very much, an outstanding golden nugget. Thank you very much, Rebecca, for your time and for this great discussion.

Rebecca Brown 28:11
No problem. Thanks for having me on.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:12
It was a great pleasure, Rebecca, please stay with me and to the audience. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. I hope that you enjoyed this discussion as much as I did. If you have any feedback, or you would like to contact Rebecca, please do that because I think we are a great community. And we can learn from everybody from everywhere and from everybody. And I think this is really an extremely important topic that we discussed today. Thank you very much. Bye bye.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it. Until the next episode. Please don’t forget we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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