Episode released on: 10. October 2022
The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Adam Toporek
LinkedIn Headline: Helping organizations win with experience! ► Customer Service Expert ✪ Keynote Speaker ✪ Trainer ✪ Strategic Advisor
- 00:00 Game Start
- 00:50 Adam’s introduction
- 03:09 Which values drive you in life?
- 04:24 it’s never too late to win with CX
- 07:35 how do you define defense and attack in customer service?
- 09:38 how is it possible to prevent hassle for customers?
- 14:02 employee empowerment
- 19:08 3S Process and the CATER Process
- 22:52 Employees remuneration
- 26:13 The Future of CX
- 28:32 Adam’s book suggestion
- 29:35 Adam’s contact details
- 30:01 Adam’s Golden Nugget
and much more
Adam’s Contact Details:
His book suggestion:
- Atomic Habits by James Clear
Adam’s Golden Nuggets:
- Organizations that can generate positive emotions through their experiences that can do that consistently and that can make memorable experiences, even if they’re small, are the ones who are going to win now, in five years, and in 10 years.
Organizations that can consistently generate positive emotions through their experiences and that can make them memorable, even if they’re small, are the ones who are going to win now, in 5 years, and in 10 years @adamtoporek on the CX Goalkeeper PodcastTweet
#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast
Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast. Your host, Gregorio Uglioni will have small discussions with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope you will enjoy the next episode.
Ladies and gentleman, tonight it’s really a big, big pleasure because Adam Toporek together with me. Hi Adam, How are you?
Adam Toporek 0:27
Greg. Oh, yeah, so great to be here.
Gregorio Uglioni 0:31
Thank you very much for your time. It’s really an outstanding opportunity for me and for for the audience of the CX goalkeeper podcast to have you on this show. Therefore, thank you very much for your time.
Adam Toporek 0:43
Thank you. It’s pleasure to be here. I was excited to talk about CX and all of our great topics.
Gregorio Uglioni 0:50
With what what you said, I think the game can start now. And we’ll start always with the short introduction. Adam, could you please introduce yourself?
Adam Toporek 1:00
Sure, I am a customer service, keynote speaker, trainer and author. I am a third generation generation entrepreneur. So I grew up in and around small business, I tend to bring that lens to my experience work. I’ve worked with big companies, but I don’t come from a big company background. So that I think informs a lot of how I approach CX. And how I approach the idea that we are all operating in the customer experience with limited resources. And the customer experience has to be delivered with that. And that’s a very natural perspective for me, because as an entrepreneur or as a small business person, you are always facing limited resources.
Gregorio Uglioni 1:44
And yes, I think this is extremely important. And if you are speaking about resources, I would like to mention two things. The first one is your outstanding book, be your customer hero. I think this is a really a great source of insights. For everybody in the customer experience community, we will put the link in the show notes. And I told you I will ask about that Crack the Customer code, we are speaking roughly about 500 episodes. This is a great success. Congratulation.
Adam Toporek 2:12
Thank you. Yeah, we are going to hit 500 episodes in our upcoming season. And it’s been a really long run with Jeannie and, you know, successful. And we truly enjoyed it. I mean, it’s been just fantastic. I know, you know, Jeanne, as well, my partner is uni Walters. And we just have great chats. And, you know, we’ve really been able to explore a lot of different avenues of CX, which I’m sure you’ve had that experience to hear with the CX goalkeeper podcast. And it’s one of the great things about having a podcast, it’s just getting to have these discussions and all these different perspectives. And then of course, the book, I wrote the book, and it’s been a while now, okay, about 2015. And that came from my small business background from my retail background, I wrote a book that was like, What will teach my people, my frontline people at 85% of what they need to know to be great at customer service. And I couldn’t find it. So I wrote it.
Gregorio Uglioni 3:09
Thank you very much. I think that’s that’s really great. And now we would like to learn a bit more about you. Which values drive you in life.
Adam Toporek 3:19
Values. That’s an interesting question. Definitely say, empathy is a big value. I truly believe and I don’t know, if you’ve read Stephen Covey’s very famous book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I think it was Habit number five, which is first seek to or seek first to understand or first seek to understand him, I have that backwards. But I truly believe in that and trying to understand the other person’s perspective trying to understand where they’ve come from. And I believe in that in life, as well as of course, and customer experience and customer service. That is a crucial perspective. I also believe in contribution. I believe in trying to give back in my own ways to the things I think that are important. And I that’s where I say I’m a little hokey sorry. I believe in the core values love, like, just trying to be more open to people and to giving love and receiving love. And I know that’s a very vague word, and it’s going to mean different things to different people. But it is one of the values that drives me.
Gregorio Uglioni 4:24
Thank you very much. And we love Heros and tonight we will also speak about be your team’s hero, how to lead a world class customer experience team and therefore let’s really kick off the game. I follow you I listened to your keynote speeches and you’re saying something it’s never too late to win with CX. However, what I am seeing in customer service and customer experience is that we are still facing a lot of distraction is still possible.
Adam Toporek 4:56
Yes. However, like in any keynote speech, you know, Sometimes you’re making big bold statements. And there’s a couple of bullet points underneath that are. But in this case, but in this case, so let’s talk about those. For the first thing I do whenever a client or anybody calls me asked me about CX or my services, or what I do. First thing I ask is, what industry are you in? We don’t tell I feel that the people in the CX space don’t talk enough about how different CX is in different industries, how that changes, there are fundamentals that are true across every industry. But how the industry very much changes how you’re going to approach certain topics, how you are going to use CX as a competitive advantage or not. If you are a manufacturer, and you are a monopoly, then you don’t need cx to be your competitive advantage. You don’t you you’ve got the market, it’s fine. It’s why one of the reasons government, customer service has always sort of been legendarily bad because there is no competition, there is nowhere else to go. So I start with that. So when we say it’s never too late to win, we’ll see x one depends on your industry. And there are other industries in which CX is the gap is being narrowed. Right. So if we look at product or service, those things are being narrowed, it’s they’re becoming homogenized, particularly in technology technology, you can only sustain an advantage for so long, the gap will eventually closed. So what happens then you have to find a way to use CX as your competitive advantage, you have to find a way that when technology is your base, you are providing something else that differentiates you from the competitor, preferably something the customer wants, but if you’re, you know, brilliant, like Steve Jobs, maybe you can tell the customer what they want. That’s a little more rare. It’s better to do market research in general. So I think, you know, when you look at it, I would just close with this thought, I think in most industries in which we talk about the great majorities, particularly b2c industries, CX is still the most the primary source of competitive advantage, certainly over the long term, and it’s never too late to win, you can be better you can improve and you can catch up to the cost depends, I mean, it’s hard to depending on how far back you are and how far ahead they are. But you very oftentimes can if not catch up to the competition, then close the gap.
Gregorio Uglioni 7:35
Thank you very much. And you said that it’s never too late to win. But basically, to win, you need to attack and to defend, and therefore, because we are on a soccer pitch, how do you define defense and attack in customer service?
Adam Toporek 7:51
Customer service or experience? Because if I did both, it’d be a little different. I think
Gregorio Uglioni 7:57
The one that you like most,
Adam Toporek 7:59
say offensive defense? Well, I’d like both, I’ll do both, we’ll do them quickly. So I’d say you know, in customer service, particularly, you know, I would be I would sort of consider a defense and offense and defense is really reactive service. Right. So when we add it’s everything we teach when we trained on reactive or offense is proactive service, because that is generally what separates you from the competition, even more than the reactive service. And that is, you know, truly looking at all the ways you can be proactive, all the ways you can get ahead of issues, check in with customers to anticipate issues or prevent them. And just to also create experiences, or the experience level, I’d broaden it a little bit, I’d say you know, the defensive idea is a little bit more, making sure the bases are covered. You are meeting or exceeding expectations. Your journey is hassle free. Right? You are consistent then offense is okay. That to me I talk a lot about customer emotion. And I think what the research has shown in most recent years is that customer emotion is the single primary determinant of experience results. So when you look at emotion I that’s where I think I started thinking about offense a little bit more how do we create a create experiences that create emotionally resonant positive moments that are going to actually stick with the customer and make them stick with you?
Gregorio Uglioni 9:38
Thank you very much. And thank you for being proactive and answering the question from a customer service and customer experience point of view. And what you’re saying with emotion, think about the stadium around a few how many emotions the fans are spreading for their teams at the end for the company setting that you not Eating but playing that you mentioned, you mentioned something as some fried. And I think how is it possible to prevent hassle for customers? What’s your view on that?
Adam Toporek 10:11
Well, it’s very possible and it’s very hard. And it’s more important than ever. So one of the things we have learned, you know, this was a trend before I was talking about hassle. The effortless experience came out, a lot of people started talking about effort and friction. I will say I talked about hassle. And one of the reasons I talked about hassled was because to me, hassle is the emotional response, the emotional response is more important friction and effort or what lead to somebody feeling hassled. So to me, effort, and friction are more the mechanical things we need to do to create a hassle free experience just to sort of clarify our terms. It has become more important than ever, since the pandemic, right, it was already trending up, people do not want to be bothered, they want their easy button, they want their Netflix, they want their movie to start in five seconds. And now with the pandemic even more. So now, I don’t even want to go to the store for my groceries, bring my groceries to me. Right? So when you look at that, one of the things you have to look at is what are the drivers? What are the things that drive hassle, there are a number of things, I’ll just mention a couple of the big, big rocks that we attack. One is technology, technology is the biggest tool we have now to reduce hassle, right to create easy experiences, I just want to press a button and my everything appears that I want in the world. But there’s a lot of old technology, there’s a lot of technology that doesn’t speak to itself. within corporations, there’s a lot of outdated technology that was built for differing expectations are for a differing world. So technology is both one of the biggest sources of hassle and one of the biggest reducers of hassle. The next one, I always call these the OG of hassle, the policies and procedures. Those have been around since the dawn of time, and I came up with a term of many years ago called rule creation. And that means that left alone, every organization tends to, you know, accrete or accumulate more rules, right, we never get less. And the only way to get less is to actually focus on it and to go do this policy, does this procedure still serve us is the reason we created it still valid? What is what does it mean in the context of the customer experience we have today and the customer experience we want our customers to have today. So policies and procedures are a huge source of hassle, both and this is a another layer to it, both in CX and an E x. Because often the policies and procedures are a hassle for the employees, or hassle for your team make it difficult to do their job make it so they’re going to disappoint a customer and have to manage the feedback or the blowback. And then the last thing I’d add, I’d say, No, there’s always CX design. Of course, you know, making sure the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. But I’d say training. And this is a little bit counterintuitive, but training is a lack of good writing good soft skills, training for the parts of the journey that are human is a huge source of hassle. People who don’t know where to find information, people who don’t know how to manage a conversation, people who do not know how to handle a difficult conversation. All of these things can be a huge source of hassle, right? We’ve all had that experience where somebody didn’t, didn’t know what to do, or didn’t know even where to send us to get it done. So you’ve looked at the there’s a lot of other drivers of hassle, but those are really three big ones tech policies, procedures in the human training.
Gregorio Uglioni 14:02
Thank you very much. And I think you are touching an extremely important topic you spoke about E ex employee experience. And and this is I think, extremely key. You are sharing both to your view on empowering employees. And I always make my really small example. Think about a player on the pitch trying to score a goal and you need to go to the coach and ask May I go in this direction and do this before trying to score the goal instead of giving them the opportunity to score the goal? What’s your view on that?
Adam Toporek 14:36
So they were talking about employee empowerment or soccer player football player in your case environment. That’s a great that’s a great example great by the way, you know that is the point. When you look at reducing hassle for the customer, let’s start with that. I’ll work back to the empowerment bar. When you look at reducing customer the customer the immediate source of hassle is you cannot give them what they want at the moment they want it. Right. So if I need to transfer you that is, by definition, a bad experience, that may not be a horrible experience. But it’s by definition, an experience they did not want. It’s an experience that is delayed, it is a form of hassle. So every time we create the conditions for our employees, where they are going to end up transferring or having to get back to somebody, or whatever it may be, it’s going to create hassle in both on both sides, right. And also, you know, I always call them power to me of how government is the Win Win Win of customer experience. Those are the employees when the customers win, and the company wins, because everything I just described costs, time and money. Every delay every time you have to involve three more people to get something done. It involves time. And time is money. So a few things we did one is you just have to loosen the reins, a lack of empowerment comes from fear. Okay. I mean, that is that is I am scared what is going to happen if I give this power. And that fear is actually justified. It’s not an unfounded fear. We’ve all seen viral stories of, you know, the employee who got mad on their last day and tweeted on the franchise, or, you know, big companies, social media, right. I mean, there are risks to empowerment. And I think you’ll probably find I have, I’m the only one I’ve met one of the only CX people that we talked, we tend to talk empowerment, or most people tend to talk about running various sort of glowing, like, I don’t know, metaphysical terms, like, oh, just empowering employees, the world is going to be a wonderful place, and everybody’s gonna be happy. I try to counsel people to look at it this way. employee empowerment is a risk reward analysis. That is that simple. That’s not very romantic, I guess, or whatever the word might be. But it is a risk reward analysis. So if you have if you’re Walmart or Target, you’re this is an extreme example, you’re not going to empower your cashier to send wire transfers from the from the company account. Okay, extreme example. But the point is, there are always limits to empowerment a lot of people talk about, don’t have any limits, let your employees do whatever, no. But you do want to evaluate what is the what empowerment do they need, both for their experience, as we talked about, and for the customer experience, and what is the risk of giving that? Alright, so it truly is a risk reward analysis. After that, there’s there’s different ways to empower employees, you horizontally, vertically, all this type of stuff, the one thing I would counsel is to understand that if you do not have a culture of empowerment, and this is where that training comes in one, you have to train them how to use it, you have to give them the skills, so they’re comfortable to use it. But if you don’t have a culture of empowerment, you’re going to want to make sure they understand that we are changing our culture, we are changing how we approach we have we have locked you down like this. Right. And now we are going to loosen the reins. And I found this out when I first empower people in my small business, I’ll wrap up with this, you know, we sort of long story but I basically sort of woke up and said, What are we doing this is ridiculous. Let’s empower people to give refunds for this like $49 I’m wasting 10 people’s time and ticking off the customer. You know, what I found was they didn’t do it. We gave them the power and they didn’t use it. Why? Because they had been locked down for so long. And if you look at the academic literature, there is actual actually a difference between actual empowerment and psychological empowerment. So you want to make sure if you’re if you’re coming from like, Okay, I heard I heard the CX goalkeeper podcast and I want to empower my people, well then remember it’s going to take some time and you’ve got to really make them feel safe and make them under understand that they can use the empowerment you’re not going to eat their lunch if they make a mistake.
Gregorio Uglioni 19:07
Thank you very much and what what you’re saying it totally makes sense. And I think we need to give to employees the opportunity to to have to improvise to find solutions for customers, but customer can be difficult. And I think also there you have a really nice methods your 3S process that that you shared in the last in several presentation. Could you please elaborate because on that?
Adam Toporek 19:36
Oh, absolutely. So in the book you see behind maybe your customers here I actually have a different process it’s called cater see a te R and what I realized was a few things. One you know everybody like you know speakers and all we all have to have our like little branded process and fine. Nobody’s gonna remember that when a customer is yelling at them. No one’s gonna remember control they knowledge, it’s just not reality. We talked about human emotion, I talk a lot about psychology and sort of neuroscience. So I was looking for a process that really was something somebody could use, I really believe nobody is ever able to use these little processes in the heat of the moment. So the three S’s literally actually two things. So we start with step one, soothe the psyche. And psyche is a fancy word for mind, I just needed something to go with the s, alright. And all that means is you have to resolve the emotion before you resolved the operational issue, or problem or challenges. And particularly if we’ve done service for a while we’ve seen the problem, we jump right in, we don’t even want to let them finish. Because we know we have a stack on the phone we like okay, I know what this is, I want to fix it. One we’re not always right. And that’s always bad when we jump in. And we’re not right, because we haven’t heard all the details, too. If somebody has gone through, let’s just make an example, you know, three different four different people to get to you. Two of those people were not very nice. And they still haven’t gotten their issue resolved is resolving their issue. The only problem now, though, they’re mad, they’re upset, you’ve had a bad experience. So soothe the psyche is essentially solve for the emotion, you have to listen, you have to understand you have to take the time, that’s sometimes a balancing act, when you have a full queue, you have to take the time to make sure they’re heard. And that you’re addressing the emotional component, solve the screw up, this is step to soothe the psyche solve the screw up. So the screw up is what it sounds like, fix the operational issue, whatever it is in however you can. That’s not always a screw up. But for the customer, they think it’s a screw up. So solve the screw up. And like I said, it’s really a two step process in the heat of the moment. It’s really, it’s that simple. You need to remember to solve for the emotion before solving the operational issue or sort of doing them together. The third step is actually not for the heat of the moment. The third step is for after it’s what you and I would know as closing the loop, it’s set up the success. Right? It that means understanding that one, we may not have resolved all the emotions, we might have resolved them for the moment, but they’re still lingering or whatever to the operational issue. We may not have completely resolved it or, okay, we put in the ticket for the New Product to Ship but did it shipped? Did they get it? Are they happy with it? Was it broken? So set up the success means being proactive, as we talked about and checking in and closing that loop. And making sure everything is resolved emotionally, and operationally.
Gregorio Uglioni 22:52
Thank you very much. And I think what what you were saying shares and really a nice process, what we would expect from that the best employees. And basically, we know that we are in a phase where this we have a resource issue. We don’t find employees, I think in the in the US but also on our side in Europe. And basically there are quite a lot of discussion about increased salaries of customer service employees, often they are the less paid, because they are on the below on the bottom of the pyramid. And what’s your view? Can we really solve these issues by increasing salaries?
Adam Toporek 23:31
Cool. I don’t know that I have an answer for that. Because that really gets into specific market dynamics of every economic market. That, you know, I’ll make some general comments, which is this, I think one of the things we’re going to see, and this is a problem and a different or a challenge and a different way is you know, these jobs are going to be less and less done by humans in the next five or 10 years. They’re going to be replaced the jobs that are left will be higher skilled, and probably will demand and deserve. Well, let’s not use deserve because we could argue the jobs today deserve better pay, but will demand better pay will have a market value that draws better pay. And I think that’s going to happen now, the challenge of course is there will just be less of these jobs, there will be more more be more premium, right that will be more sought after. And that will be very difficult because what will happen is the robots will solve the easy stuff. And the humans will be there for the more challenging things and the more difficult thing so it will be truly like you know, tier whatever we might call tier two or tier three level service, right? That when we when we when we escalate nowadays, that department will still be there and be more trained on You know, I think service is changing in a lot of ways. And I think there are ways but this is, you know, this is not going to happen in call centers, this is not going to happen in certain contexts. But in other contexts, maybe retail or maybe entertainment, there are ways to have service jobs that are fun and enriching, and are more, where you’re providing an experience to think of some of not all the employees at Disney. So I think there will hopefully be some more jobs in that sense, because, you know, companies are retail companies, brick and mortar companies are leaning into how do we create experiences in the real world that make people want to show up that make them not want to just click a button. And what I think we found with the pandemic, and the sort of opening up as the pandemic has shifted, is that people who have crave that human interaction have still crave human experiences, the obituary for the death of retail was a little premature. Not for all retail, but just for retail in general. So I think, hopefully that answered the question.
Gregorio Uglioni 26:13
Yes, I think it’s, it’s your view. And I think that’s, that’s what you’re saying what you’re saying, totally makes sense. And basically, you’re already speaking about robots, and possible as salaries, changes in future. And therefore my question is, now we are in future, in 10 years from now, we’ll quickly close our eyes. And what we’re speaking in 10 years from now about customer experience.
Adam Toporek 26:39
Yeah, I think the pace of change in artificial intelligence is incredible. What, just what you and I have probably seen in the last five years how good AI has gotten. It’s a little scary if you watch the Terminator movies, but it is incredible from a business perspective. And almost certainly with the move towards digital digital transformation that was just accelerated by the pandemic. Incredibly, I mean, it just so I remember, I can’t remember which CEO CEO was, but once he said, Yeah, we’re doing our, our eight, we’re doing our we’re trying to do our five year plan and 18 months now. Right? I mean, it just truly accelerated everything. And so I think that is just going to be fed by what’s happening with big data and AI, we are going to have a service economy that is you’re going to be talking to avatars you’re going to be talking to, you know, Hi, I’m Greg, your FedEx avatar, or whatever. And, you know, that’s gonna, that’s gonna be the experience. And what’s going to happen is, you know, we talked about human emotion and customer emotion. It’s going to, you know, we talked about this as well, technology, the gap always shortens, right, I mean, somebody will jump ahead, they’re going to catch up, you know, Tesla jumps ahead with electric cars, all the other car makers are starting to catch up. So what’s gonna happen is, there’s gonna be no competitive advantage in the tech stack. Competitive Advantage is going to be just as it is now in the human experience and what they can do to differentiate and make it more human and make it more emotionally resonant. And I think that one basic principle will be the same in 10 years as it is today, it’ll just be in an environment that is completely different.
Gregorio Uglioni 28:32
Thank you very much. We are coming to an end of of this game, we spoke about the past about the future. And now they in the last five minutes or three minutes of the game, the prolongation. Three questions for you, is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience because as you during your career or in your life,
Adam Toporek 28:53
now customer experience, or service book or any book,
Gregorio Uglioni 28:56
they wanted to you think that app could add the audience the most it can it can be can be a generic one, I’m going
Adam Toporek 29:03
to recommend a book, it’s very famous, a lot of people may have read it, I’m going to recommend a book that has truly changed my life. And a lot of ways it’s called atomic habits, by James Clear. That book, I think the principles in that book are widely applicable to almost any context. So both person’s personal life and their business life and you can use it you can use it as a leader. And as an employee, and as just a human being existing in the world. The atomic habits by James Clear
Gregorio Uglioni 29:35
thank you very much. And if somebody would like to contact you, what’s the best way?
Adam Toporek 29:40
The best I mean, a lot of social channels, but the best way by far is customers that stick.com That is home base, so that as customers that stick.com And everything is there, we’ve got a contact form and you can reach out to me and I love to connect with new people. And of course I’m on LinkedIn and all that stuff.
Gregorio Uglioni 30:01
Thank you very much that will be everything will be shared in the show notes. And the last question is a dumb, golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you would like to leave to the audience.
Adam Toporek 30:14
It’s gonna be a little repetitive, I think, with what we’ve already said. But I was just going to say that the organizations that can generate positive emotions through their experiences that can do that consistently. And certainly that can make memorable experiences, even if they’re small, are the ones who are going to win now, in five years, and in 10 years.
Gregorio Uglioni 30:39
Thank you very much. It was really a great pleasure to have you on the six goalkeeper podcast. Thank you very much for your time.
Adam Toporek 30:46
Thank you so much, Greg. It was a pleasure. I love chatting about all this stuff. Thanks, everybody.
Gregorio Uglioni 30:52
Thank you, the customer that sticks, I think that it’s something extremely relevant. If you find this discussion relevant for you. Please feel free to contact me give us feedback because we live with it that way. It’s always what we are preaching, giving and getting feedback to improve ourselves. Dear audience, thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. Aidan. Please stay with me. Thank you. Bye bye. If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you
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