Episode released on: 07. November 2022
The Big Miss – How Businesses overlook the value of emotions with Zhecho Dobrev – Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper
The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Zhecho Dobrev
LinkedIn Headline: Author | Customer Experience and Behavior Science Consultant & Trainer
Highlights:
- 00:00 Game Start
- 00:37 Zhecho’s introduction
- 01:56 His values
- 04:16 Where does the idea of writing such a book come from?
- 07:39 why did you decide to write about emotions?
- 09:51 The emotional signature
- 16:41 Where should companies start if they need to care about emotions?
- 18:51 Restructuring surveys to cover also emotions
- 21:37 What should business do from a strategical point of view?
- 22:19 Seven business practices for an emotional connection
- 23:02 The most remarkable example
- 25:27 Customer Science
- 29:29 The future of Customer Experience
- 31:37 Zhecho book suggestion
- 32:21 His contact details
- 32:55 Zhecho’s Golden Nugget
and much more
Zhecho shared these slides for your reference:
Zhecho’s Contact Details:
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/zhecho-dobrev/
- https://twitter.com/ZhechoDobrev
- https://beyondphilosophy.com/
His book suggestion:
- The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath
Guest’s Golden Nuggets:
- “Customers don’t think how they feel. They don’t say what they think, and they don’t do what they say. So, I think if you have that in mind in business, and not take everything for granted, from what customers say, I think there’s a lot of things you can do and achieve success.”
Zhecho’s book:
Customers don’t think how they feel. They don’t say what they think, and they don’t do what they say. If you have that in mind in business, … , I think there’s a lot of things you can do and achieve success. @zhechodobrev on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast
Tweet
#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast
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Transcription:
Gregorio Uglioni 00:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast, your host, Gregorio Uglioni, will have small discussions with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope you will enjoy the next episode, ladies and gentleman today, it’s really, really a big pleasure because I have Zhecho Dobrev together with me. Hi Zhecho, how are you?
Zhecho Dobrev 00:27
Hi, Gregorio. Thank you. I’m very good. I’m very happy to be with you. And this is football fan. I’m super excited.
Gregorio Uglioni 00:37
Thank you very much. And we are going to discuss about the big Miss i We will explain what it is exactly. But you wrote an outstanding book. And I think it’s really important to share that, for the people watching the video, and he will short the book. And for the others listening to the podcast, you will find all the information related to this book in the show notes. And it’s really worth it to buy it. But I think it’s let’s deep dive into the topic and then you can really evaluate if it makes sense. I am sure it’s worth it. Before we start discussing about the book, and Zhecho, could you please introduce yourself?
Zhecho Dobrev 01:15
Hi, everyone. So I really dedicated my almost whole professional career to to customer experience. I started in 2009, for instance analysis and then consultants. And so the principal consultant, so on with a company called Beyond philosophy, which is one of the first solely dedicated to customer experience consultancies, and yet 13 years down the road, have been a lot of projects, a lot of a lot of programs. And then I thought, now it’s a good time to write everything in the book.
Gregorio Uglioni 01:56
I think that’s totally makes sense. Thank you very much for sharing that. And also for transparency reason, Colin Shaw was on my episode 100. And now it’s time to discuss about the book and I really like to have this continuously connection with different companies, and seeing the different views also coming from from from the same from the same company. Perhaps before we start discussing into discussing about your book, which values drive human life.
Zhecho Dobrev 02:25
Well, I found an interesting part, an interesting piece in in a book, I think it was by Dan and Chip Heath called defining moments. And they talk about research from Professor Harry Reese, who was looking at the different literature for, for personal relationships. And there was something very interesting there so and what and he was looking for this like, well, what makes some because some personal relationship with your loved ones endure while others fail. And he called the thing perceived partner responsiveness. So So essentially, it comes down to this, do we perceive that our partner or our loved ones are responsive to us, and responsiveness was coming down to three things, understanding. So understanding our beliefs, values, and so on, understanding call them validation. So kind of like being you know, showing that we really care for this person, the last one was caring. And I think those are, when I did my research for the book, and I guess we talk about that we found very much the same thing there are, are the drivers of customer experience. So essentially, what makes our personal relationships endure are the same things, pretty much the same things that make customer relationship endure. So I think those are universal things being responsive to our partners, showing that we understand them, and that we care for them or this is these are some universal truths.
Gregorio Uglioni 04:16
Thank you. And I think that’s that’s totally make sense. And basically, perhaps also to introduce the book, the big myth, our organization overlook the value of emotions. Where does the idea of writing such a book come from?
Zhecho Dobrev 04:30
Well, that’s funny actually. So you know, when the pandemic hit that was literally stayed outside on the on the porch, and, you know, we’re consultants so all our projects were briefly stopped until the organization’s figure out how to work remotely and and things like that, the important stuff and and then I was sitting out and thinking and as you mentioned, Colin has been on your show, he always told that we are sitting on this Goldmine that we will over these 13 years. The type In the company, and before that, we’ve gathered this large database, where we have data about the aspects of the experience, data about customer emotions and data about customer attitudes and behavior toward towards organization like likelihood to recommend likelihood to purchase again and things like that. And, and we always saw how to analyze it, but it was like so big that we never could get our heads around how to go about that. And then when COVID hidden, I was sitting outside. One thing I was thinking is like, I think that organizations, everyone pretty much does journey mapping. But I think most people are doing journey mapping a little bit wrong, or they’re missing a big trick. You see, like most organizations, I told, like looking and we’ve done this journey mapping with lots of organizations, we’ve been doing pretty much like this. So we have the purchasing experience, and the servicing experience. So the Infinity lifecycle, so have you started with the brand, then awareness, purchasing experience getting on board, using the product or service, billing campaign money, you get some communications emails from organizations, you call their contact center, or customer support, and, and things like that. And so most organizations are thinking, again, we’ve been doing this or focusing on like, what is the customer doing? Like first step, second step, third step that and so I thought, Well, I think we have data for about aspects that fit in all those journey, poor journey, touchpoint categories. So which of those journey touchpoint categories is actually the most important? And how do customer relationships fare against those things? You see, because I think one of the things that people are missing is like, they’re focusing on what the customer doing, and not like, well, let’s look at this journey. And what can we do in the different moments to create this feeling of a relationship? Because I feel that most organizations are overlooking that is, for example, one example, I was talking with customers of a bank. And the customer said, Oh, I’ve been with this bank for 12 years, how could they go to this other bank and ask for a loan there? And say, Oh, well, that’s interesting, you know, this customer is feeling a relationship, but how does the bank? How does the bank does the bank show any kind of the de feu this sort of the relationship with this customer? So that was one of part of my thinking, at the beginning, so then I did the research and said to call him, well, let’s do a white paper. And he said, Well, you’ve written so much, why don’t you write a book, and then
Gregorio Uglioni 07:39
we wrote the book. I think that was a great idea from Colin writing a book, because research paper, it’s a good, but not a lot of people would read that. And now it’s your book, it’s out for everybody to read that. And why did you decide to write about emotions?
Zhecho Dobrev 07:59
Yes, well, because again, the research show that actually emotion, so I told you that first I was thinking about relationships. And we had this touch point about customer relationship that included some emotions like, like, feeling cared for as a person. This the organization is trustworthy, responsive respects me and other things. And we had a traditional touch points. And what we found is that actually, this, the this emotional attachment is we call it the feeling of relationship. And those are the emotional aspects is the biggest driver of value compared to the traditional touchpoints, like product, brand, advertising, communications, customer service, and so on. And again, this confirms something that we have found with lots of other organizations. But the reason I call I wrote about emotion, I call it the big miss is because organizations by and large, they don’t focus on the emotions, they don’t do research on emotions, they don’t have a strategy around emotions. By and large, they don’t train train people how to vote specific emotions. And in my 13 years, as a consultant, there has been pretty much only like one organization that we walked in. And they showed us their research and say, we found that these are the key emotions in our experience. And we’re measuring those, there was one or two other organizations that are measuring something like customer relationships and interesting ways to measure customer relationships. And so um, but like, of all these organizations, there’s been like one or two organizations that haven’t worked with us that is measuring emotion. That’s why I think it’s a big miss because it’s the biggest driver of value. And yet people don’t have a strategy and don’t know how to really approach that is, you know, is a science and strategy.
Gregorio Uglioni 09:51
What you said earlier, is you evaluated a lot of data that you have created throughout the years at beyond philosophy And if I understand why you have an approach or discipline that you will define the emotional signature, what is what what is exactly?
Zhecho Dobrev 10:08
Sure? Well, so basically, this is our customer research to quantify that we find what really drives value. So the difference between and we can distinguish between what people say they want, and what actually drives value. And some of the unique things, there’s like a, we take emotions into account. And again, our research shows, if you don’t take emotions into account, one thing, you don’t get the real picture of the railroad, because we know customers have emotions, and to essentially are missing like 50% of the picture. So you’re allocating resources to things that may be not not as important by the drivers. And then the second thing is we can find, there’s like we say, a big difference between what people say they want to what actually drives value. So let me give you some examples. We did research with patients. In Houston, actually, with a hospital system there. And patient would say we want to spend more time with a doctor. Okay? Now, if you if you’re the Customer Experience Manager, you go to the CFO and say, Hey, finance, Mr. finance guy, we need to employ more doctors or, or increase the time people spent with a doctor, you probably lose your job either on that same meeting, or a few months later, because actually, that doesn’t increase customer satisfaction at all, what we found is people don’t want more meantime with a doctor, but more quality time. So instead of the doctor, spending the time, you know, filling sheets on the computer and things like that, they want to feel listened to them acknowledge their concerns, show that they tried to get to know to them as person stuff, anticipate their needs, respect them, respect their time, things like that. So it was about the quality of the time, not more time, similar things with customers of large, worldwide famous charge card, particularly with the premium customers, they will say we want this car to be more accepted. Okay, it makes sense. Because if the card is not accepted in stores, it’s not very useful. But what we found is those people have been their customer for 2025 years, at least, interviewed people. And every now they will say, Oh, but we don’t want them to book us in a nice restaurant, we want them to tell us which is which are the trendy restaurants in Barcelona and book as a table with the in the back and you or with a good view, blah, blah, blah. So reading between the lines and our research show that essentially is the feeling of prestige that drives the most valuable people don’t say we want prestige, people say something about the product. Similarly, insurance customers, telecom customers would say the most important thing is the network. Because you know, without the network, your phone is not very useful. But again, people say we want product, but actually oftentimes, they are not really aware of the real drivers to their attitudes and behaviors towards the brand. And like you asked about motional signature with that we can find those emotional and subconscious drivers of their attitudes and behavior towards organizations.
Gregorio Uglioni 13:29
I think you’re touching my emotions, because you did you shared to Example one about in hospital, I am working in an hospital, and therefore I really understand what you’re saying. And that’s what we are also trying to explain. And you mentioned, charge cards charge cards. That’s American Express, it’s quite clear, because I was working for joint venture of American Express. And therefore I really understand that the feeling of being member of American Express the link to this brand, it’s extremely important for customer and what you shared. It was really also feedback that we got from customers directly that they wanted to give, they didn’t want to give back to car because of this member since and one guy moved from a corporate card into an individual card. And he wanted also to have the member since that yet on the corporate card. It was not possible. But and for he was really struggling. And this there were a lot of negative emotions involved until we found the solution for him. And therefore he It totally makes sense and I can can understand that.
Zhecho Dobrev 14:38
This member since I always thought like the first time we were so that I felt how powerful it is. It’s so simple, but this is about the relationship, you know, for people with the proof of that relationship and they want to be recognized for that relationship. So it’s really a question of other organizations how they can find a way to replicate replicate this, let me actually give you an example. In our nowadays everyone is moving digital transformation and stuff like that. So just like last year, we’re working with a company in Canada, b2b but also b2c company. And with energy, and, and before commercial customers used to order through the local office, okay, but then they move those order into a one 800, central central number. And I was reading the comments of our survey and like one, one customer literally said, it’s not that those are that guy is a bad reception is he just doesn’t know our error, like, we have to repeatedly give instructions to the drivers. But that made me think. And so people were like, really unhappy with this, but it made me realize that what they had done is also take away that feeling of a relationship. So before you can imagine you are this owner, and you go to all their heating oil. And and you go to the office, you know, the office guys, you chit chat, they know you, you have all this relationship, and now they’ve taken all that relationship away, you’re calling a one 800 Number and no one knows you, or knows anything, even how to send the the instructions for rural to for the drivers of these trucks to go to some rural area in Canada. And suddenly this whole relationship is gone. So and so I think essentially, it’s like organizations have to think now how can we use technology to create these feelings for relationship?
Gregorio Uglioni 16:41
Thank you very much. I think what what you’re saying is, it totally makes sense. And you’re sharing a lot of great example, and I’m sure the audience will appreciate that. But basically what yours you shared at the beginning, it’s few companies are doing that in the right way. You said only one that you saw in your career? Where should companies start if they need to care about emotions?
Zhecho Dobrev 17:03
Sure. That’s a good question. So I think the first thing they need to realize is is to is to start to do research that gets to those unconscious drivers of behavior, because you know, most of our behavior is driven by our unconscious and emotions are typically functioning around there. So try to find the real drivers of customer behavior, taking emotions into account. So that’s that’s one thing. Second is, it’s a very simple question. But what is the experience you want to deliver to customers? And how do you want your customers to feel now defining what emotions you want customers to view and ideally, that will be based on research because like, what emotions make people buy, or what emotions are important that the purchasing experience versus the retention or renewing, renewing experience. So defining those and then thinking, Well, what can we do to evoke those on a consistent basis is very important. And then when you do that, then that takes you to the culture part, which is very important for if you don’t want this to be driven by one or two people in your organization, you need the back office people and the front office to be working toward the same vision. So if you have a defined experience, and define how you want customers to feel, then you can communicate and equip people with sort of the vision and the skills to think about well in their roles, how are they affecting customer experience? And how are they working towards the same vision that you want to go towards customers feeling that? So I think those are some practical things.
Gregorio Uglioni 18:51
And I think it it’s really interesting, but basically, most of the companies are doing surveys that are not related to emotion, that it mean, they don’t do they need to restructure the surveys or what what’s the what’s your approach?
Zhecho Dobrev 19:07
Yeah, well, yeah, same thing. So we just recently were talking to some people and you know, we mentioned about emotions and we said, Well, do you measure emotion? And they said, Yes. I was a little bit surprised. Like I said, there’s only like a few companies. So I said, well, so you’re telling me that you have you are measuring and you have data on to what extent people feel trust towards you cared for value towards you? Oh, no, not that kind of data. So I think maybe they say they do LPS or something but like, Okay, you do MPs fine, good, but like what are the drivers of MPs and again, oftentimes, those like we say, are emotional aspects. So do you know whether you know feeling appreciated or respected or listened to or understands and, and like what creates those emotions? So which aspects of your experience drive those emotions that in turn Positive emotions affect value and negative emotions destroy value. So, again, you don’t need to do this every day. But but you can. And interestingly, nowadays, with machine learning and the developments in natural language processing, you can get voice of the customer data, as long as it’s like, it really comes from the customer. And you can find the emotional sentiment of what people are saying. And then when you combine this with operational data, you can find which operational instances create these emotions. And then you can get a predictive score, not just on the customers who have taken the survey, but on every customer. Because if you see like, oh, people have spoken to George, and they have had this, this problem resolution experience, or they have had this or they walk into the branch three times, and that, and then we can say, Well, who else have them that same thing? And then you can essentially have a best guess on what are they likely to feel? And now if you know that, now we can take some strategies. Now, what can we do a nurturing campaign to save some customers, and the ones that we see are happy? What can we do to upsell and further develop that relationship with those customers? So we’re now living in this in this new world where you can do a lot with data, as long as you know, you have the right data that really captures the real drivers of customer behavior.
Gregorio Uglioni 21:37
Thank you. And I think to make it a bit more tangible also for for the audience. What should business do from a strategical point of view?
Zhecho Dobrev 21:47
Well, I think from a strategical point, I’ve already mentioned something. So like, first, find the real drivers of customer behavior, define the experience, you want to deliver and equip the organization, the people with the skills to do that, and to drive that vision for the experience, effective customer experience. In my book, I talk about seven strategic principles to improve your aim. But I’ll just mention these three things, I think, for now,
Gregorio Uglioni 22:19
but I think it’s really interesting you you’re mentioning these seven business practices for an emotional connection. And I need to ask that you need to choose now between your children, which one do you prefer?
Zhecho Dobrev 22:35
For on those seven on those seven things, I think. So culture is very important. Coaching is very important, but I think it needs to start with with this better understanding of the real drivers of customer behavior. So I think if you if you know that then a lot of things can happen on the back of that.
Gregorio Uglioni 23:02
And based on your research, which was the most remarkable example that you add, throughout your research, because you did a lot of research to create this book, which one stand out from your point of view?
Zhecho Dobrev 23:16
Sure. Well, I think I think, I think one of the best cases was from Merce Klein, in the largest container shipping company. So they they did, they did a complete program. And they did it in a very good way. So they have a lot of, and the best thing, they’re they have a lot of smart people, Six Sigma, you know, doing logistics all the time. And they calculated that for every four point improvement in NPS, they are getting 1%, more cargo shipped, and their NPS increased by 40 percentage points over 30 months. And again, we had done this research with them. And they found that actually, the biggest driver of value for them was either problem resolution, not so not so emotion, but actually that that was creating and driving a lot of positive or negative emotions. And they completely redesigned, completely redesigned, that is a problem resolution so that you know where that sitting who is accountable. And they invested a lot into that. Then they also define the experience that they want to deliver. They said it’s interesting, they they ship containers, not even people, but they say we want to be stand for truth cared for valued, and that had some implications for the way they do business. Because they recognize that they have these brands, and they can charge premium prices. But with premium prices, you need to have a premium experience. And so they focus on these three motions to make the transition between being transactional and focused on the transaction, to actually focusing on the customer relationship and derive more value. So that was, that was a very good example. And we did some podcasts with, with, we’ve done some webinars with the guy who was leading the program, the Vice President and, and a lady called Michelle Patterson, who was actually the customer experience leader in charge. So, so that was I think that was a very successful program that that a lot of people can can learn.
Gregorio Uglioni 25:27
Thank you very much. And now we’ll come to the end of this discussion. However, still some some questions. And Colin Shaw is always speaking about artificial intelligence, data, and customer behavior, behavioral science, in order to create this customer science. And now, with these emotions, we are creating and getting new data. What’s what’s what’s your view? What will come out from this customer Science?
Zhecho Dobrev 25:57
Yes, well, this is really for me, I share that depends on the future, too, compared to the key to future competitiveness. So nowadays, yes, we have data, but you need to think well, what data would really first like, what problems? Are we going to solve with data? And how could we use data to improve the customer experience, nurture relationship, improve our sales ratio, and improve our retention, ratio, and so on. And without data, you need data about the real drivers of customer behavior, right? So you have data, and they say, they go to the new economy, or the agent, as long as you you can, you can analyze it. So that’s where AI and machine learning comes. But again, I emphasize that you can create these algorithms, but unless you take emotions into account, well, you know, actually, there’s some research that algorithms with and without emotions, those with emotions outperform significantly the others. So this is where the algorithm scams and then okay, now you you know, some of the things about customer Well, what do you do about the design of that experience, and this is where behavior science could come in. Knowing the signs about essentially customer behavior, you can design the experience, you can design certain nudges, you can frame things a certain way. And an interesting company that is kind of doing some of those things I found when I was doing the research for my book is a company called sight, see mind or Simon, a Canadian startup, and essentially, they find customers. So they work their b2b. So they work, let’s say, with banks with telecoms and so on. And they find customers that have high probability of defecting on their, on their bills, loans, and so on. And they also found that we’re actually if a customer defect on on a loan, it’s typically not just one loan, but they have a car loan or mortgage or credit card, something. And what most organizations used to do is like defer payments, but that is essentially like kicking the can down the road. And the customer is thinking, Oh, my problem is gone, but actually just gets gets bigger. So what this organization is doing is like creating, understanding the profile of who is likely to defect before they do, and start to implement some communications, and sales service and using convergence, to nudge the customer behavior to change their behavior a little bit to, to change the plan of how they are making payments, before they have defected. And then they’re using AI and natural language processing to see to see how the customer is responding to those nudges, to see the sentiment of what they say how they say, and then further adapt, adapt their approach. And all this is doing through self service. So alleviating things from the customer, from the customer service staff in the call center. And you can see it’s a better experience. It’s it helps retention, it helps save costs. So I think that that is the future more more organizations should be thinking, what can they do with with data and how they can use it to create a better experience and being more productive.
Gregorio Uglioni 29:30
Thank you very much. And I think you’re speaking about the future and the future is now we are now in 10 years time from now 2032 circuitry and we are discussing about about customer experience, what we are discussing about
Zhecho Dobrev 29:45
Sure, well, I think what we just described were discussing. We’re discussing. Yeah, I think really this intersection of AI and behavior, behavior, science and data And yeah, I didn’t think so. So if you think about. So I think like 10-15 years ago, all the big organizations started to create these customer experience programs we’ve worked with. Now they have internal people, we touch a lot of people working on that customer experience, and so on. But we still get some of those on the table and smaller companies coming in, and so on. Now, the big organizations focused on creating these data, data lakes, and starting to experiment more with with machine learning, and AI, I have to say that most of them focus on automation, and stuff like that. But I think still in 10 years time, there will be a lot more stories and a lot more sort of success of what works, what doesn’t work, I think, if you think like, Will CRM where CRM came in, and, you know, thinking them to the world didn’t turn being overnight, and many, many projects fail, then same with customer experience programs with digital transformation. So I think it first needs to start with understanding of what are we really trying to do, and understanding what really drives customer behavior and how to design those things using science. Because again, in 10 years time, many of these machine learning projects and AI would have gone wrong, don’t deliver any returns. But this is where you need to have the right knowledge and to and vision to drive a success of that.
Gregorio Uglioni 31:37
Thank you very much. So we discussed about the big miss our organization overlooked the value of emotions. And now we are really coming to the end of the game in the last three minutes of this game three questions for you. The first one, is there a book that asked you during your career or during your life that you would like to suggest to the audience?
Zhecho Dobrev 31:56
Yeah, well, actually, I think you need to read a lot of books. But the last one that kind of like, stood out for me I was reading it with with a lot of interest and almost like feel sorry that it’s finished. Was this the defining moments by Chip and Dan Heath? I love the examples there a lot. So that’s that’s definitely one.
Gregorio Uglioni 32:21
Thank you very much. And what’s the best way to contact you?
Zhecho Dobrev 32:26
Yeah, people can find me on LinkedIn, also Twitter and beyond philosophy website. Yeah, LinkedIn would be would be a good place to start.
Gregorio Uglioni 32:38
And where we can find your book?
Zhecho Dobrev 32:42
Oh, big, particularly online retailers. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Yeah, some of those big winners.
Gregorio Uglioni 32:55
And the last question is Zhecho golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new, that you would leave to the audience?
Zhecho Dobrev 33:04
Sure. Well, maybe I already told you about the key to, to, to our own relationship with our loved one. So then maybe I’ll finish with a I will give a quote, I think it’s very relevant. They say customers don’t think how they feel. They don’t say what they think and they don’t do what they say. So I think if you have that in mind in business, and not take everything for granted, from what what customers say, I think there’s a lot of things you can do and achieve success.
Gregorio Uglioni 33:42
Thank you very much, and we conclude here our discussion. It was a great pleasure to the audience. Stop this podcast pause, these podcasts go and buy Zhecho. Zhecho’s book, because it’s really a great book, a lot of insights. It is the other half of the cake that people are not often relating to, it’s all about emotions. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. We love feedback. Therefore, feel free to contact Zhecho or myself, and to have a nice discussion to continue the discussion. Thank you Zhecho.
Zhecho Dobrev 34:11
Sure, thank you Gregorio
Gregorio Uglioni 34:15
if you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it. Until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you
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