Customer Science with Colin Shaw – E100

Episode released on: 14. November 2022

Customer Science with Colin Shaw Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Colin Shaw

LinkedIn Headline: Global Influencer in Customer Experience & Marketing | Financial Times Award For Leading Consultancy For Last 4 Years | Host of ‘The Intuitive Customer’ in Top 5% | Best-selling Author x 7 | Conference Speaker


  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:51 Colin’s introduction
  • 06:19 Colin’s values
  • 08:31 The customer satisfaction index
  • 09:56 No single silver bullet in customer experience
  • 11:04 Customer Science
  • 15:29 Data
  • 21:49 Behavioral science
  • 31:08 Artificial Intelligence
  • 35:44 An example: Apple
  • 37:19 The Future of CX
  • 38:40 Colin’s book suggestion
  • 40:04 Colin’s contact details
  • 41:08 Colin’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Colin’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Who Moved My Cheese, by Spencer Johnson
  • Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life by Rory Sutherland

Guest’s Golden Nuggets:

  • I would really suggest that you look into this whole area of memory. I’ve even thought about writing another book on it. We have actually just doing a mini series on the podcast about memory. So really look into this whole area of memory. Because when you think about it, we are affected in our decision making, by what we remember. And I really don’t think there are enough people out there thinking about the effects of your memory and how that influences your behavior, and what you’re doing and stuff like that. So really take a look at the whole area of memory.

We are affected in our decision making, by what we remember. I don’t think there are enough people out there thinking about the effects of your memory and how that influences your behavior and what you’re doing @ColinShaw_CX on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast


Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation, and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I am sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you,

Ladies and gentleman tonight it is really a big, big pleasure because this is my episode number 100. And I am super happy and super thrilled that I can discuss about customer experience together with Colin Shaw. Hi Colin, how are you?

Colin Shaw 0:39
I’am great. And congratulations on 100 episodes, that is a really good milestone. It’s not easy doing 100. It’s easy to intend, but not easy to do and 100. So well done.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:51
Yes, and you are doing also great with your podcasts you already are already at 200 episodes. But give me time, I will also achieve this this target. We will discuss about your podcast a bit later. But first of all, really, thank you very much for your time for being here to discuss about customer experience, and in particular about customer science today. Before we deep dive in customer science, we would like to learn a bit more about you. You are very well known. But I always ask Could you please introduce yourself?

Colin Shaw 1:26
Yeah, so Colin Shaw, I’ve been doing customer experience worked for the last since 2002. So even before customer experience was being talked about written seven books on the subject. Yeah, well, I don’t know what else there is to say I’ve got a family, grandchildren Great. Enjoying life.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:48
That’s great. But I think it’s important also to mention beyond philosophy, that your company is something that you created the fourth time in a row, the best consulting company nominated by the Financial Times. And you have also an outstanding podcasts. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Colin Shaw 2:08
Sure. this is this is the British bit of me, which is trying not to blow my own Trump as they say. So yeah. So beyond philosophy we started 20 years ago. As you mentioned, it’s now been recognized by the Financial Times as one of the best management consultancies for the last four years, which is really good. The podcast is called the intuitive customer. We’ve been going for nearly five years now. So we’ve done I don’t know how many episodes probably around 250 Odd episodes. But so yeah, so the intuitive customer where we talk a bit more about lots of advanced stuff on customer experience and some of the things I think we’re going to be talking about today.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:55
Yes, thank you very much. You are mentioning, we are discussing perhaps could you also mention something about your colleague, Professor Ryan Hamilton?

Colin Shaw 3:04
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So Professor Ryan Hamilton, it sounds very grand when you’ve got a professor on your show. But Professor Hamilton and I wrote my last book together, or our last book, he co authored it called the intuitive customer, which is the name of the podcast, obviously. And we have such a good time in him telling me stuff me telling him stuff. And he used to be a stand up comic. So it’s an unusual combination. So we have a good time just chatting and laughing and joking about together. But he’s, he teaches consumer psychology at Emory University. He teaches MBAs and all stuff like that. So very clever guy, but also very funny. So we have that interesting combination of having a good laugh, but also learning a lot at the same time. And he comes at it from a very, as you would expect a very academic perspective. And I come at it from a very business practical perspective. And therefore the two things we think is ideal combination.

Gregorio Uglioni 4:09
less than perfect combination because your podcasts the intuitive customer is the best podcast about customer experience is not me telling that but it’s all the audience all the listener that that you have, I am dreaming of achieving such such great targets, but you are doing really a great, great job. Thank you. I love your podcast on Sunday when I go out for jogging, then it’s always the first podcast I’m listening to.

Colin Shaw 4:35
Great, good, good. Well, well done for jogging and well done for listening.

Gregorio Uglioni 4:40
Thank you very much. You mentioned also something beyond philosophy is there since 20 years, and before starting beyond philosophy, you had a really senior role in corporate life. How did you decide to move from corporate corporate life into the philosophy?

Colin Shaw 4:57
It was a very interesting process. Particularly for my wife, because I was earning lots of money in a very safe job. And suddenly you decide to leave it and start on your own, and not know whether the book that you’ve just written is going to end up in a, some of these bargain basement stores is interesting. So the long and short of it is I don’t want to bore people. But my boss had said something to me back in 1989 1998, should I say, which was he wanted me to improve the customer experience. And those days people didn’t know what a customer experience was. So I went away, started thinking about what is a customer experience? How was it mean? How do you go about doing it? Well, you spent sort of three years putting together a program, some things worked, some things didn’t learn from both of them. And then I decided that I thought that customer experience is going to be important. So decided that I should leave and take a gamble, and start beyond philosophy. So it was literally me and another guy at the time. And I have to say, it was probably one of the best decisions that we’ve ever made. But it was a bit daunting at the time, as you can well imagine.

Gregorio Uglioni 6:19
Not like I think that’s that’s that’s a great story that it’s not so easy from the beginning. But now you are playing we discussed about the Champions League earlier. But it’s really, really it’s not only the Champions League League, it’s really the Soccer World Cup, because you’re working everywhere. And it’s really great what what you are doing, and based on that, I would like to understand a bit more about you, and therefore, the question, which values drive you in life?

Colin Shaw 6:48
Interesting question. I think the first one is, family comes first. So I’m a big family, man. And whenever anyone has any problems within the team, and it’s to do with family that I think comes first. I think from a business perspective, there’s one phrase which I use a lot, which is, none of us are as clever as all of us, which, and I’ve do a newsletter on that basis as well, which is sharing other people’s insights. So that’s basically saying, I don’t have all the best ideas. Everybody’s got lots of great ideas. So it’s the combination of those ideas that that give us the power. And the third part, I think, I would say would be, it’s just about challenging. And I like a good debate and a good argument to learn other people’s views, because again, I think if you can learn other people’s views, then you get to a better position. And by learning I mean, it’s a bit like, talked about the podcast, you know, one of the things I enjoy about that is learning from Ryan, all the academic side and then going okay, well, that’s interesting. How do I how do you actually do that at a practical level within a company. And that’s the interesting, interesting bit, so much so that, really, we named the company that way. So beyond philosophy is trying to say, It’s okay, you know, you need a philosophy or strategy or thought, but you’ve got to go beyond it and do something. And it’s in the doing that you get results, just talking about it, you’re not going to get any results. So yeah.

Gregorio Uglioni 8:31
And I think what you’re saying, it totally makes sense, because nowadays, a lot of people are talking a lot about customer experience. But not everybody’s doing it in a proper way. You are mentioning also in your podcast, that the satisfaction of the customer, the level of satisfaction is decreasing and decreasing. Oh,

Colin Shaw 8:48
yeah. It’s incredible. Yeah, I mean, it’s, um, I miss you. These are American figures, obviously. But there’s a thing called the American Customer Satisfaction Index. And it’s now at the lowest point for 17 years. So, so think about that. So all the time that there’s been this focus on customer experience, it’s at the lowest point now you could turn around and say, Ah, well, that’s because of the pandemic. And well, no, it’s not because if you look at their statistics, and we had the guy on the show recently, the guy being the president of the company that does this, he tells you that something like only 30% of organizations between 2010 and 2019, that pre pandemic, improve their customer experience, only 30%. So that means 70% Didn’t and given the focus that’s on it, given the money that’s being poured into it, given the software systems that are being built and sold, you would have thought that that number would be far higher.

Gregorio Uglioni 9:56
Exactly what you’re saying. I think it’s something that we are also facing it To us, it’s Europe. It’s okay. It’s everywhere. And I think what you are also preaching sorry for the word is that something needs to change. And therefore, I would like to speak about customer science. I know you spoke a lot on about customer science on your podcast. And I think this is something really interesting. And to structure structure that in a way that also my audience can can understand that. I start with the question, is there a single silver bullet in customer experience?

Colin Shaw 10:30
Not? Next question. No, there is no silver bullet in customer experience. All there is, is a lot of hard work across many different aspects of it. Unfortunately, people want a silver bullet. And I think that’s part of the problem, to be honest with you. They want a silver bullet, but there isn’t one. There’s a lot of hard work. It’s a bit like the Winston Churchill speech. All I can offer you is blood, sweat and tears. So

Gregorio Uglioni 11:04
no, I really understand that. And therefore, as you are saying, and it was the introduction, could you please define customer science?

Colin Shaw 11:13
Yeah, so let me let me sort of take a step back here, because I think it may be important for your listeners to try to sort of understand where I’m coming from here. The way I’ve been looking at this is, it’s a bit like, if I was to go back to, you know, 1999, when I was thinking of setting up beyond philosophy, and I started to see a few trends emerging. And I started to think, yeah, there’s this thing called Custom experience out there. And not many people know about it. A few people do, but not many people know about it. But I think it’s going to be a big thing. And there are a few sort of telltale signs. And I think what I’m seeing today is are those signs now, back then, the everyone was talking about CRM. CRM was the big change, CRM was going to change the world. They were talking about the fact that CRM programs had not been generating the improvements that they had thought it would. So again, similarities to where customer experiences today. And as we were just talking about, in terms of, you know, only a third of organizations changing their experience. So I’m starting to see that people are starting to get a bit. What’s the word I’m looking for? A bit. This not disingenuous that they’re starting to think that well, maybe customer experience isn’t producing the results. So what else is there? What I’ve seen is that there are, I’ve labeled this customer science. And this is not just me, saying that this phrase, but to be totally honest with you, I don’t care what it’s called. But it’s three things. Okay. It is data. So we get far more data than we ever have done in the past. But and again, I think we’ll go on and talk about this, but the way that the data is being looked at is a challenge, right? So data, the second area is AI. So the ability to obviously build algorithms to be able to predict and that’s an important word, what the customer is doing. Okay. And then the third part, which I think is that the third element has been missing, but it’s starting to come about is behavioral science, okay. Which effectively is understanding why people do what we do. So understanding human nature and understanding that people are, are don’t make logical choices. Despite the fact that we think we do we don’t. Okay, and those three things are starting to come together. Now. It’s a bit like, it’s a bit like the iPhone, right? No one ever said, I want an iPhone. Okay. But what, what Steve Jobs, and I’m not trying to equate myself to Steve Jobs. But what Steve Jobs talked about was, you know, he suddenly saw Well, there’s GPS, you know, there’s, there’s small computers, there’s social media and all that, you know, and those coming together. And that for me, it’s this whole area around data, the fusion of data, AI, and behavioral science now, and let me say, let me be clear, I don’t think that I’m saying, Well, I’m not saying this is going to happen by the end of this year. I’m not even saying it’s going to happen by the end of next year. What All I’m saying is, you will see a growth in this. And if you I look at companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, any of the big tech companies, they’re doing this stuff today, you know, just look at what Amazon do look at the adverts that are placed in front of you. It’s the fusion of all of those things that are coming together. And more and more organizations are going to move into this space, in my view,

Gregorio Uglioni 15:29
then I think you explained that three topics, let’s let’s deep dive one after the other, so that we can understand a bit better. And I think what one thing that you really mentioned that it’s important starting from data, that first big bucket, it’s there are a lot of data. The question is, are we able, can we really understand the data, this data? And how should we understand that data? What I am seeing in the market discussing with other people’s, yes, we wanted to collect data, we put them somewhere, and then in future, we will see what we can do with this data. What’s your view on that?

Colin Shaw 16:04
Well, yeah, I agree. But that’s clearly totally the wrong thing. You know. So I think you need to sort of look at data in a few ways. So first of all, there is data that you as an organization is collecting. And then there is I’m that is about your products and services and, and importantly, how your customers are using those things. But there is also data from outside of your organization about customers. Okay. So just imagine the data that that Google has on you. Okay, you know, that they know, the searches that you’ve made, the type of searches, the way that you know, when you’re searching, what you’re searching for, you know, all of that sort of more behavioral type data. Okay. Now, the problem that I think is there, so, so the data is there, some of it, people are just going well, we’ve got this data, we don’t know how to look at it. What a lot of organizations are clearly doing is they’re looking at the data from the way that they’ve always looked at data, right. And this is sort of then ties into this is where the three things combined, basically, because just looking at data, from a rational, what we would call a rational perspective, is not the right way. Okay? Because when you look at the it’s not rational things that motivate us, we are motivated by emotions, for example, examples. Okay. And therefore, one of the challenges I would give any of your listeners is, well, how much data do you have on how your customer is feeling? Do you know the emotions they are feeling today? Do you know which emotions drive value for you. And that’s a really important phrase, value. In other words, which will increase net promoter, which will increase customer satisfaction, revenue, whatever it is, whatever the organization’s doing. Most organizations haven’t got any information on date on customer emotions. And most organizations don’t really understand why their customers are doing things. So this goes back into the behavioral science piece, which is, you know, I, I think, you know, one of my favorite examples, which is, you know, Disney know, when they asked their customers what they want to eat at a theme park, Disney know that people say they’d like to have an option on a salad. Disney also know that people don’t eat salads at theme parks, they hotdogs and hamburgers. So here’s the interesting bit. You could have a load of data. If you’re Disney, you could have a load of data that tell you that what customers want is salad. Okay, you’ve done research customers say they want salads, but they don’t buy them. Okay. So it’s and that’s a classic example of customers say something. And the irony is, and my second book was on customer centricity. The irony is, is that sometimes you should ignore what your customers tell, you know, I’m trying to be careful with my words here. Ignore what your customers tell you. But look at what they do. Okay? Now, if you’ve got data on what they are doing, okay, that’s the key thing. And then the way that you interpret that through through the lens of behavioral science, in other words, understanding why people do what they do and what motivates them and how they make decisions at a much deeper level, goes back to the podcast. And you know what they’re doing in academia, understanding how people make decisions becomes key. Does that make sense? So yes, there’s lots of data. But I don’t. It is a it’s another interesting one, actually, sorry to go on about this. But I thought this was really interesting. Actually, we actually did a podcast on this a little while ago, a few weeks ago. And if you haven’t listened to it, I recommend you do. It was called the myth of experience. And Ryan had read, read a book called The Myth of experience. And what it talks about is that sometimes we think that we have all of the information that we need to have to make a decision. And the author’s called that a wicked learning environment. So we think we’ve got all the information, but we haven’t got all the information. And yet we make good decisions. And the other side of it is what they what they called a kind of learning environment. Okay. So in other words, you have got all the information. So an example of that would be with data, I’ve got information about what customers are doing, I’ve got information about how they’re feeling. I’ve got information about how I’m going to interpret what they’re doing, because I understand behavioral science. You know, and most people will be listening to this or going, Oh, well, we haven’t got that. But over on the other side, people, there are organizations there that are thinking that they have got all the information, and they haven’t. So they can’t predict what the customers gonna do. Does that does that make sense?

Gregorio Uglioni 21:48
It totally makes sense. And I think, based on what you are saying, and also going to the next topic, behavioral science, you are filling also this peak and rule, idea. And if you could elaborate a bit on that, I think it would be really helpful because you’re linking what you’re saying. Now, with this peak end rule, it makes extremely understandable that customers are not taking this decision in a rational way, as you’re saying.

Colin Shaw 21:48
Sure. So let me try to define behavioral science, first of all, which which basically, behavioral science is effectively psychology. Okay, call it behavioral science, call it Business Economics, call it neuroscience, whatever you want. Yeah. But behavioral science is effectively understanding how people make decisions and understanding that we, as human beings have biases. And we have what are called heuristics, which effectively are shortcuts. Okay, so we, we have a shortcut in decision making. Let me give you an example. And then I’ll come on and talk about peeking. But a shortcut that we have, I’ve just been talking to my wife about this, you know, we’re having some work done around the house. And we will always get three quotes, we always get three quotes on any work we haven’t done, we never go with the most expensive, we never go with the cheapest, we always go for the one in the middle. Now that is a that’s, that is a heuristic that, in other words, a short way of making a decision, okay. And there are literally hundreds of these things that we use. So behavioral sciences, effectively understanding how people behave and why they do things. Now, one of the biggest influences that I find this subject fascinating, and this is probably the thing, that biggest thing I’ve learned in the last 15 years, is the effect upon memory. And this is where the peak end rule comes in. So and this is where I think this is really, really, really fundamental. Right. So and let me let me try and ask you a few questions. So tell me about one of the best restaurants you’ve been to watch one of your favorite restaurants to go to?

Gregorio Uglioni 24:15
Oh, that’s a difficult question. But there is one next next to our home. And if we are going there, my wife and me when we have somebody taking care of our son, and therefore I like to go there.

Colin Shaw 24:29
Right. Okay. Why is it Why do you like going to that restaurant?

Gregorio Uglioni 24:34
It’s because I’ve done with my wife, to be honest.

Colin Shaw 24:37
Okay. Okay, so. So let’s sort of take a step back and think about that. So the first thing is, the when I’m asking you that question, what you’re immediately doing is using your memory. And I’m sure in your mind, a picture of that restaurant came up in your brain, and maybe the last time you went And also what you feel about it. Okay? So the interesting thing here is that, if you think about it, customer loyalty is a function of memory. So, if I didn’t, if we as human beings didn’t have a memory, we couldn’t be loyal to something. Because by definition, to be loyal means you are returning, and you are going back. And by definition, you’re, you know, you’re going to that restaurant because you want to be with the wife and have some time, etc, etc. So customer loyalty is a function of memory. So the next interesting question becomes, well, therefore, if memory is so important, to building a customer loyalty, how are memories formed? Okay. And there’s a guy called Professor Daniel Kahneman, who’s won the Nobel Prize for behavioral economics. And what Kahneman talks about is one of the ways that we, one of the ways that we remember things is through what he calls the peak end rule. Okay, so what’s the peak end rule, the peak end rule is a, it’s basically built on what will you remember is based on the peak emotion that we felt in the experience, and it is based upon the end emotion that we felt in the experience, okay, now, the peak can be positive, or negative, the end can be positive or negative. And this is a classic example for me of theory. And then you turn around and say, That’s really interesting. So yeah, you know, if I said to you, where were you 911, you would remember where you were, you would remember what you’re doing, you would remember how you felt them? Because that’s a memory that is sort of seared into your brain. And that emotion is seared into your brain as well. And therefore, it what it does is it is it makes you think of some customer experience questions. So if people remember, if memories are so important, and people remember the peak, enroll the positive, negative emotion. So where is the peak emotion that my customers are feeling today in my customer journey? So if I’m doing my journey map, where is the peak emotion that my customers are feeling? And that as I said, could be positive? It could be negative? And a probably a, an equally important question is, what emotion? Are they feeling? So if not, are they feeling positive or negative? Is what specific emotion have a feeling? Is it happy? Is it pleased? Is it valued? Is it frustrated? Is it stressed? Is it hurried? What emotion are they feeling? And here’s the killer question if you like, which Emotion drives most value for me. So if I’m a business, and I want to have loyal customers, and I want to evoke memories, emotions in my customers, so they’ve remembered my experience, then which emotions out of all the ones that I’ve mentioned, drive most value, which gives me the biggest return, which increases my revenue the most, which increases my net promoter, the most, etc. And then my third book, the DNA of customer experience, we did two years worth of research with London Business School, to identify the emotions that drive and destroy value. And what we discovered was that there are 20 of them. There are 20 emotions that drive and destroy value for an organization. And therefore, for me, you’ve got to answer those questions. So the peak end rule is part of behavioral science. But what it raises some really interesting strategic and tactical questions, you know, well, peak enroll, therefore, where’s the peak? Where’s the end? What emotions are we evoking? What emotions do we need about and how do we now start to evoke those emotions that we know will drive valley that does that make sense?

Gregorio Uglioni 29:27
Totally. Because what you are saying it’s also extremely important to define the motion that you want to evoke in your customer because this is your to be experienced, that you want to deliver. What I often see in companies is they are doing one trying to do one customer journey, it must be this, this and that and then they go to the next one and they say call something completely different. The thing that I often say is Croesus people saying we need to standardize all the processes, then we want to be standard and The next, the next team is saying we need to personalize everything is it’s not possible because if you’re standardizing there, the customer field, the standard, they are going to do in a way, and they cannot be treated, then super personalized in another journey, because at the end, it’s part of the brand promise what you’re offering to your customer?

Colin Shaw 30:19
Yes, no, no, absolutely. And and, you know, you’re now into segmentation as well, because, you know, customers need to be treated differently. And therefore, this is where data comes in. Okay. Because how do you know what the segmentation is unless you’ve got the data to segment people? And therefore, how were you segmenting customers? And therefore, for me, the best form of segmentation is behavioral segmentation. So it’s an irrelevance, you know, you don’t just look at my age and everything else, you look at what I do, again, going back to what I’m doing, and therefore you can then design an experience to, to meet that to evoke the emotion that you then get.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:08
And I think that the last part of this triangle is artificial intelligence. And this is something that you need, and will will help us in future. Could you please comment a bit on that?

Colin Shaw 31:19
Yeah. So yeah, so AI, is obviously extremely powerful. Okay. And I think he’s going to transform, I hope he’s going to transform customer experiences. And I’ve always loved technology. But there’s some challenges with it. One of the challenges with we were talking to, we did a podcast the other day, where the chap use the phrase that was, AI is just opinions written in code. And I thought myself, yeah, totally, that’s a great phrase. So the problem that you’ve got with AI is that whoever is writing the AI, has biases. Okay. And those biases are being baked in to the construction of the AI. The other concern that I have is that, again, are the AI systems being built? Understanding that customers have emotions? Are they being built? Understanding that you should be looking at the through the lens of behavioral science? And the answers to both those questions is mainly none. Okay. Again, some of the more advanced organizations, the apples, the Amazons, the Googles of this world, are absolutely doing those things, okay. But the majority of deployment of AI at the moment, is basically just rationally based, and they are effectively going. And here’s my other concern about AI, is that, you know, it’s done to save cost, rather than to improve the experience. And, you know, history shows that that’s always the case. But having said all the problems, there’s a massive opportunity, because you can personalize interactions. If you’ve got the data, you’ve constructed the data in the right way. If you’ve looked at things through the lens of behavioral science, now you can construct your AI to predict what the customer is going to do, okay? And not only predict what they’re going to do, predict how they are going to feel. Okay? So example I always use is that, you know, when I walk home at night, and I walk into my front room, and I shout hello to Lorraine, my wife, within a one word response, I can tell you how Lorraine is feeling. I can tell you, she’s feeling happy, I can tell you she feeling sad. I can tell you what if she’s feeling sad, or annoyed with me for some reason, I can tell you what I shouldn’t do to make it worse. And I also can tell you the things I should do to make it better. Okay. So, you know, now replace me with a with AI. And now you’ve got something that understands all those things, understands the sentiment of what customers is are saying or what they’re typing or what’s written in social media or you know, text analytics or bla bla bla bla bla, and looking at putting that intelligence that emotional intelligence behind that interaction, now you can start to deliver and this is where I think the battleground will be, is in, in in a predicting a proactive customer experience. So we will move to, rather than being reactive to customer demands, we will be proactive to customer demand only the other day, just a very small example. You know, my Apple Watch came up to me and pinged me and said, We you normally do this type of thing at this time of the day? Do you want us to set up a widget to do that? And I thought, wow, it’s looked at my behavior. And it is suggesting an action to improve the quality of life, blah, blah, blah, blah, by doing this, and I thought that’s a good example of something I haven’t requested him to do. But he’s actually very helpful to me.

Gregorio Uglioni 35:44
Yeah. Yes. And I think you mentioned that several times. And to conclude this, this part of the discussion, you mentioned at least two times, Apple One time, I found one time, Steve Job, I think we know that you are an apple sent I am unfortunately, which emotions, because emotions are extremely important. We learned today, which emotion emotions evoke Apple for you?

Colin Shaw 36:08
Oh, yeah, it’s a good question. I feel, I feel that one of the things that Apple provide me is, it’s a bit like, again, if you go into sort of that whole behavioral science, I feel like I’m a bit of a tribe. Okay, so when I go into an Apple Store, there’s lots of other people there that love Apple, okay, I feel that Apple were the sort of the cutting edge of things. So that whole area around feeling innovation, and, and all those things, I think the the leads, they’ve taken on privacy is really good and important. And the lead they’ve taken on health is really good. And really important. So despite the fact there will, you know, a big technology company that I’m sure has got loads of information on me, I feel safe with them. I don’t feel safe with Facebook, for an example. And, you know, whenever I interact with them, I feel they I feel valued, I feel they spend time with me, I don’t think they’re trying to convince me to use their products and services, you know, in all those, all those things. So I’ve always I do bang on about a lot of Apple. So

Gregorio Uglioni 37:19
thank you very much. You are, we spoke already about the future of customer experience, its customer science. But now we close our eyes for two seconds. And we are in 10 years from now, what we are discussing about,

Colin Shaw 37:33
I think what we’re discussing is customer science. So I think what we’re discussing is how we’re building proactive experiences. And I think that customer science is just, we just like with, so let me take a step back. I’m not saying CRM went away, CRM doesn’t go away, I’m not saying customer experience goes away, it won’t go away. What I’m saying is, it becomes business as normal. And there is a new initiative. And that new initiative will be customer science, people will still be doing customer experience, they will still be customer experience teams, but they won’t be the focus on it, it will be absorbed into our everyday use. I think in 10 years time, we’ll be talking about how we are using AI, how we are, you know, I won’t be sitting there going, Hey, this is really interesting Google peak enroll, because everybody will know it. You know, all those types of things, all the things I was talking about 20 years ago, when people were going on, that’s something interesting. You know, that is now I don’t talk about journey maps, because everyone knows about journey maps, you know, that type of thing.

Gregorio Uglioni 38:40
Thank you very much. We are coming to an end of this game. We are in the last five minutes or three minutes of the game. Let’s call some additional goals together with call into three question for you. Is there a book that you would suggest to the audience because it helps you during your career or during your private life?

Colin Shaw 38:59
Yeah, there’s one that actually made me leave corporate life which I always think is good, or what? Who Moved My Cheese? I don’t know if you ever read it. But it’s a very good book, Who Moved My Cheese which makes you think about life, what you’re doing and how to go about it. And one of the key questions it asked that I thought was great was what would you do if you weren’t scared? And so if you didn’t have a big salary and everything else, what would you do? And my answer was set up beyond philosophy so that’s a better good personal but there’s a custom experience book there’s a book called alchemy alchemy Lee by the name now just trying to look great. I can’t remember his name now. Are Rory Sutherland better Rory Sutherland alchemy which looks at Game practical examples of this whole area around behavioral science.

Gregorio Uglioni 40:04
Thank you very much. And if somebody would like to contact you what’s the best way?

Colin Shaw 40:08
The best way is either to go onto our website, which is beyond It’s beyond And go to contact us, or just go onto LinkedIn, I am a LinkedIn influencer are right there regularly. So drop me a message on on LinkedIn.

Gregorio Uglioni 40:31
Thank you very much. I will add some information because you have an outstanding newsletter that it’s important to mention your seven books, you mentioned three or four or four of them. In the in these episodes, they will be all on the show notes, but something that I would hear from you, it’s where can we find your podcast.

Colin Shaw 40:50
So the podcast, just search for the intuitive customer, the intuitive customer podcast, just search for it wherever you find your podcasts, and you’ll find it there. So Apple Stitcher, Spotify, on our website. Anyway,

Gregorio Uglioni 41:08
thank you very much. And I really say it’s worth it, please subscribe to this podcast, because it’s really the best. That’s my personal view. And therefore I invited you also for this episode number 100. Because I really enjoy listening to what you’re discussing with Professor Ryan and wisdom. It’s it’s outstanding. And now we’re coming to the last question is Colin Shaw, golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new that you would leave to the audience?

Colin Shaw 41:34
Yeah, I would really suggest that you look into this whole area of memory. I’ve even thought about writing another book on it. We have actually just doing a mini series on the podcast about memory. So but really look into this whole area of memory. Because when you think about it, we are affected in our decision making, by what we remember. And I really don’t think there are enough people out there thinking about the effects of your memory and how that influences your behavior, and what you’re doing and stuff like that. So really take a look at the whole area of memory.

Gregorio Uglioni 42:16
Thank you very much, Colin, it was a great pleasure to have you on the customer, customer experience goalkeeper podcast. Thank you very much for your time. It was a pleasure.

Colin Shaw 42:26
Thank you very much and well done on the 100th episode. Really, really good news.

Gregorio Uglioni 42:31
Thank you very much. Colin in please stay with me; to the audience: It’s everything. Thank you very much. If you have feedback, please let me know or let Colin know. We are happy to have a discussion and we always are happy to get feedback. Thank you very much.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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