The Experience Economy with Joe Pine – E101

Episode released on: 21. November 2022

The Experience Economy with Joe Pine Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Joe Pine

LinkedIn Headline: Speaker, management advisor, and author of such books as The Experience Economy, Infinite Possibility, Authenticity, and Mass Customization.


  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 01:34 Joe’s introduction
  • 02:12 Joe’s values
  • 05:35 The progression of the economic value
  • 09:30 Mass Customization
  • 11:31 The coffee example
  • 13:31 Amazon
  • 18:55 Customers’ attention
  • 20:57 Measuring memorabilities
  • 26:50 Joe’s book suggestion
  • 28:56 The future of CX
  • 30:47 Joe’s contact details
  • 32:07 Joe’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Guest’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Future Perfect by Stan Davis

Joe’s Golden Nuggets:

  • I would suggest every person in the audience ask themselves, what business are we really in? Are we in the business of extracting commodities, making goods, delivering services, staging experiences, and even guiding transformations? And so for example, for you, Greg, and others who are really helping companies embrace these concepts. You’re in the transformation business, you need to guide them into achieving their aspirations of becoming great experience companies. And so it’s always important to ask what business you’re in and recognize the opportunities of being in the higher level businesses in the progression of economic value.

what business are we really in? Are we in the business of extracting commodities, making goods, delivering services, staging experiences, and even guiding transformations? @joepine on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

And so it’s always important to ask what business you’re in and recognize the opportunities of being in the higher level businesses in the progression of economic value. @joepine on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast


Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation, and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I’m sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you.

Tonight. It’s really a big, big pleasure because the founder of customer experience together with me, Joe Pine. Hi Joe, how are you?

Joe Pine 0:35
Greg, I’m doing just fine. I appreciate being on your CX goalkeeper podcast and talking about my views.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:43
Thank you very much. It’s really a great, great pleasure. And before we start, this was one of the first book that I read. And and it’s really something that I say, it made me better in business, and also in my personal life. And this is the thinking and what we are sharing in the customer experience, community, and therefore we are really thankful for the great work that you did, too. Thank you very much for that.

Joe Pine 1:08
Well, that was very high praise, Greg, I appreciate that. But I gotta ask you to? Did you read it first in the original edition?

Gregorio Uglioni 1:16
No, I have only this edition. I’m sorry for that.

Joe Pine 1:19
Okay, wow, that one came out in 2020. Right, the first one came out in 99. We had updated vision 2011. So, so I’m glad that you became acquainted with in the last few years. That’s terrific.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:34
Thank you very much. Before we deep dive speaking about the experience economy, we would like to learn more about you. And therefore as usual, I always, I always ask, could you please introduce yourself?

Joe Pine 1:46
Sure. I’m Joe Pine. And I often the first thing you say as co author of the experience economy, but But what I do is I go around the world speaking, teaching and consulting, and helping companies create greater economic value in their business.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:04
Thank you very much. And perhaps, in order to learn a bit more about you, which one just drives you in life?

Joe Pine 2:11
Which what?

Gregorio Uglioni 2:12

Joe Pine 2:14
Well, that’s a great question. So. So number one, right, as a as a, as a Christian, it’s important to have the values that the God instills in us. And it’s important also in in business to to have those same values shouldn’t shouldn’t you do different things differently in business than in your, in your personal life. But I will say that, so you know, our, you know, our greater purpose is to glorify God. But my specific purpose in business, I often say is to do is to understand what’s going on in the world of business, and then develop frameworks that first describe what’s happening, and then prescribe what companies can do about it. And so the short version of that sort of our three word theme of our company’s strategic Horizons is frameworks are us.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:08
Thank you very much. And I think that’s also a really a great framework for everybody in the customer experience community. It’s your book, the experience economy, it’s more than 20 years old, perhaps from where came the idea of writing such a book?

Joe Pine 3:25
Well, it actually first came, it came from my first book, which is mass customization, you know, mass customization about efficiently serving customers uniquely. And what I discovered is that when you mass customize, you automatically turn a good into a service. If you look at the classic economic distinctions, goods are standard us because the services are customized, they’re done just for a particular person, goods or inventory after production. But services are delivered on demand when the customer says this is what they want. And goods are tangible and services intangible, but an integrated part of mass customization is the intangible service of helping people figure out what is it they want, right? So then you figure that out, then you put together the product and give it just to them individually. And when I said that, in one session long ago, was late 93, early 94. I, one of the guys in the back of the room raised his hand, he said we are you you already talked about service companies that Nast customize, what does it turn a service into? And I shot back that mass customization automatically turns a service into an experience. Whoa, that sounds good. But hold on a sec, I gotta write that down. And I thought about that. And I realized it was true that if you design a service that is so appropriate for this particular person, exactly the service that they need at this moment in time, that you can’t help but make them go wow, and turn it into a memorable event. That’s what an experience is a memorable event that engages each individual in an inherently personal way. And so I realized, well, then if that’s true, then experiences are a distinct economic offering. as distinct from services as services or from goods, and if that were true, then there would be an economy based off of experiences the experience economy. And so that’s what led to share that with a client, actually, that became my partner, Jim Gilmore. And we worked on that and publish the original book in 1999, as you said, although we started publishing articles on it, 96 and 97. And even though Okay, so like I discovered this almost 30 years ago, it’s even more applicable today. Right, everything we wrote about is ethical today.

Gregorio Uglioni 5:35
Exactly. I think you discovered something, certainly 30 years ago, but nowadays, it’s extremely relevant. And you mentioned two topics that I think it’s important to deep dive. The first one is the progression of the economic value. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Joe Pine 5:50
Yeah. So that that progression of how economies evolve over time, how the primary economic offering shifts over time begins actually before goods, and that’s what commodities, commodities that for millennia, we have extracted them out of the ground and sell them on the marketplace, commodities are the basis, the agrarian economy, then with the industrial revolution of the 18th century, and in particular, the rise of the system of mass production in the early 20th century, is when goods became the predominant economic offering, and we shifted into an industrial economy over over 200 years ago. Now, now services have like goods and prices have always been around, but they’ve came became the predominant economic offering. And the latter half of the 20th century, even manufacturers increasingly gotten more and more into services made more money on the services rather than the goods that worked for IBM. And that was the case, we started valuing the services more highly making more money off into services. And and so what happens then in the service economy is that goods become commoditized, that you’re treated like commodities, that people who care about the brand, or the features all pretty much the same anyway, they come to care about three things, and three things only, and that’s price, price and price. And that’s when goods have been commoditized. Now, increasingly, services are being commoditized, as well. And that means that companies need to find a new source of differentiation, right? I mean, you could live with being a commodity. You know, there’s one or two companies in every industry that can be successful, the ones that low, lower their cost that automate as much as possible to get rid of as many people as possible. Not very fun, but but you can be very successful. But otherwise, you search for differentiation. And that leads to the next level of experiences. And again, experiences have always been around, they’re not a new economic offering, just newly identified, where you think of it as use goods as props and services as a stage to again, engage, right, that’s the key word, engage each person and then inherently personally, and then create that memory, which is the hallmark of the experience. So now we’ve shifted into an experience economy. Now, I should mention, too, that there’s one more level in the progression of economic diet, where where, because experiences can be commoditized, you know, been there done that, that’s the hallmark of a commoditized experience. And, and but when you customize an experience, when you design an experience, now that so appropriate for a particular person, you can’t help but turn into what we often call a life transforming experience and experience that changes us in some way. And so that’s a transformation. A transformation is the fifth and final economic offering in this progression of economic value, where you have experiences as a raw material to guide people to change. Things like fitness centers, and healthcare and higher education management consultants in b2b are all about transformation. And it’s always been a part of the progression economic value. It’s there from the very beginning. Because all you ask, well, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next. But we did my partner, Jim Gilmore and several other colleagues, we came out with an article in the Harvard Business Review in January, February of this year 2020, called the new you business on transformation and provide a lot more detail on it. And that’s what it is, you’re using experiences to help people create a new view. And that’s the highest economic value you can provide.

Gregorio Uglioni 9:16
I read this article, and not only the content was great, but also the picture that you use with all these flowers. They were outstanding.

Joe Pine 9:24
I wish I could take credit for it. But no, that’s all the Harvard Business Review editors

Gregorio Uglioni 9:30
know. Sure. But at the end, the content is the important part. And it was really, really interesting. I think you mentioned another topic that is relevant, and we should understand is mass customization. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Joe Pine 9:44
Yeah. So So mass customization, is when you when when was recognizing first of all that that customers are unique, right? That every individual person, every business, whoever started you they’re unique to every other thing we We often we combine them into mass markets and segments and niches, we, we think that generations are all alike, or they have the same demographic, they’re all alike. And that’s just complete hogwash. Every customer is unique. So we need to give them exactly what they want. But we need to do it at a price you’re willing to pay, we can’t just increase our cost tremendously in order to customize. So that’s the mass part of customization. And the secret to doing that, or that or the number one principle to doing that is modularity. Right? When you think of modularity, think of Lego building bricks. Right? Greg, what can you build with Legos? Everything, everything every why? Because you have a large number of modules, different sizes, different shapes, different colors, and a simple, elegant linkage system for stacking them together. That’s all modularity is modules plus linkage system. So if you can modularize your offerings, or your processes by which you make those offerings, then you can match truly mass customization, often you can lower costs by modularization. Over producing the same thing over and over again, while at the same time you’re eliminating the sacrifice that people undergo when they have to buy something standard. So today, you can get virtually you know, there’s almost not a product out there, or a service or and not yet experiences, but some where you can’t efficiently customize for individual people or businesses.

Gregorio Uglioni 11:31
Thank you very much. I think you’re always using one one great example. This is the coffee example, perhaps also for the people that are not really in the CX community that can a bit understand a bit more about that. Could you please share that?

Joe Pine 11:45
Yeah, it’s an example that works around the world, right? Because like, almost everywhere around the world, you drink a coffee. And and if you recognize, well, what is coffee at its core, it’s beans, right? Coffee beans, you grow out of the ground, right, those are a true commodity. But then you extract them out of the ground. And then manufacturers take those beans, and they grind them, they roast them, they packaged them, they put them on a grocery store shelf. Now if you look at what farmers get for the commodity at the commodity level, right, if you convert it from a per pound to a per cup basis, basically you farmers get two or three cents per cup. That’s what coffee is worth per cup at the commodity level. But manufacturers right because of the increased convenience, because the packaging because they’re bringing it to market and so forth, they get 510 15 cents per cup. But you take those beans, and now you you actually brew them for a customer in a vending machine, a corner diner, a kiosk, bodega, or, you know, a Dunkin Donuts 711 around the world, right, then you get 50 cents, dollar dollar and a half per cup of coffee. But surround the brewing of the coffee, with the ambiance and theater of an experiential coffee shop like Starbucks, of course, which brought it to the world. Now how much you pay right off in three, four or $5 for a cup of coffee that only has two or three cents worth of beans in. Right. That’s the progression of economic value. That’s how you create more value. Notice that there’s two orders of magnitude and value credit go from two or three cents to three to $5. And and that’s in recognition of the value that people get out of out of that. At each level.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:31
I think what what you’re saying is it’s extremely interesting. And I had the opportunity to participate to several conferences where we were speaking or I was watching you. And one time I had the opportunity to ask you also a question. And it was the Amazon question. Because every, let’s say customer experience expert is saying what is what Amazon is offering? It’s a great experience and usually explained in a very nice way. Not an experience. Correct? It’s a great story. But could you please share that?

Joe Pine 14:04
Sure. Sure. It’s and well, so there’s a sense in which and it’s an experience because the word experience is incredibly expansive word. And so so so one can say truthfully, that as long as we’re conscious we’re experiencing, and somebody else could say, well, if you’re dreaming, your exterior brain is experiencing something as well. Right? So yes, there is that sense of it. But not it’s not an experience as a true distinctive economic offering and this progression of economic value that I’m talking about. Right, so So why? Well, because one of the core distinctions between services and experiences is time well saved as a service. Time Well Spent is an experience that people value the time that they’re spending, that’s what they’re buying from you. And what Amazon does is it is the best time well saved company in the world. Right where you can quickly find exactly what you want. You can one click and order it And boom, it’s on your way to your house and you spent 10 seconds. I mean, literally, from from thinking of something you want to buy to order, you spend 10 seconds, I remember being at a conference once and this is a I had this was many years, it’s 2011, I think it’s when my book infinite possibility came out, which is about using digital technology to fuse the real and the virtual. And I was at a conference and I was talking about that, and I had a copy with me. And then a guy said, Oh, let me see that. Oh, wow, that’s fantastic. goes click, click Amazon app opens up camera view, sees the book, clicks it, recognize it, boom, done, on his way to his house. I mean, literally 10 seconds. Right. So that is incredibly time well saved versus saying, Oh, I think I want that book, I’m gonna go find a Barnes and Noble or other bookstore somewhere, and they’re gonna go seek it out. And we’re gonna, hopefully they have it on the shelf. If not, I gotta order it, you know, that’ll take weeks, you know, so forth. So so it’s absolutely wonderful service. And what it does is it gets into what I think is the core distinction between what most people call customer experience, and what we mean by true distinctive experiences. That what most people call customer experiences, just making our interactions with customers nice and easy and convenient. Or frictionless is sort of the byword now. Right, Amazon is frictionless, it’s beautiful. But all those characteristics, nice, easy, convenient frictions are all service characteristics. They’re not experienced characteristics. Right? Nice is nice. But rarely does it rise to the level of memorability. And to create a true distinctive experience, you have to create that memory. That’s the hallmark of the experience or residue of the experience. We make things easy, often we root nice things for our own employees to make it easy to deliver a service to their customers. But that gets in the way of being personal, right? That’s doing the same thing for everybody again, because I want to make it easy. But But experiences are inherently personal experiences actually happen inside of us. Right, it’s our reaction to the events that are staged in front of us. And finally, again, convenience is the antithesis of what I’m talking about. Because then convenience is spending less time with customers spending as little time as possible. And you know, you know, that’s what that’s what most customers want today from goods and services, is they want to spend as little time with the company, why should they care, and they want it to be commoditized via the lowest possible price and the greatest possible convenience, spend as little time on what why so they can spend their hard earned money and your hard earned time on the experiences that people value. So experiences again, are about time. That’s the key their experiences are about the time that customer spend with you. And then it’s time well spent.

Gregorio Uglioni 17:42
I think that’s extremely important what what you’re saying, and it’s also part of the title of the book, it’s competing for customer time, attention and money. One remark on what you said, and then we can speak about getting the customer attention. That’s what we discussed also, then via email, when while I was inviting you to this to this podcast, it was perhaps with Amazon, I can compare and use any other shop to buy something. It’s extremely silly if it’s this seamless as Amazon, but an experience like my preferred soccer men’s soccer team. I would never change that. Even if they would lose the Olympic Games in the championship, I would say committed to them.

Joe Pine 18:25
Exactly, exactly. I’m going through that right now with baseball. I’m a diehard New York Yankees fan. And they’ve had the best record in baseball, it’s been a wonderful season, just enjoy it all of a sudden, they’re like losing three out of four games. And it’s like terrible, but But am I gonna switch and watch somebody else? Well, of course not. This is my team. Right? And they provide and they’re obviously they’re in the experience business is what all sports are. And you create that relationship with them. You’re gonna keep it for life.

Gregorio Uglioni 18:55
Exactly. Thank you very much. We spoke a bit about attention. And I think that’s that’s the big issue that a lot of businesses, because the attention of people is decreasing and decreasing. If I read that the last thing that I read about tick tock, people are watching 2.7 seconds, a video and then it is hard to switch to the next one. How can I create such an experience in so short timeframe?

Joe Pine 19:19
Right? Well, in fact, if you think about the smartphone, for every business is the number one competitor for attention. And and so any experience that you read, you can immediately drop out of that experience by picking up your smartphone and go someplace else virtually. And that’s true for smartphone experiences. Like you say I’m going to tic tac video. It’s like boom, done nope, not engaging me. I will go someplace else. So getting people’s attention is increasingly important through through engagement again, by creating experiences that they truly value. today. You know, a lot of a lot of companies try and get attention via advertising But advertising just doesn’t work in today’s world like it used to, I mean, great ones are great. And they’ll always be be be beneficial. But for the most part, most companies should stop advertising and putting them put their marketing money into experiences. So they engage people. It’s why you see the rise of places like the Guinness Storehouse in Dublin, the Heineken Experience in Amsterdam, the role of Coca Cola in Atlanta and so on and so forth. Is it major brands recognize that they want to reach people and engage them with the brand right and capture their time as well as their attention? And if you can’t capture people’s time and attention? Well, the chances are they’re going to spend money on you is is so much higher, right? That’s why we say that in today’s experience economy, as the subtitle of the book has it is that you’re competing for customer time, attention and money. These are the three key things the currencies of the experience economy.

Gregorio Uglioni 20:57
Thank you very much. I think what what you’re often explaining to us and repeating is that we need to make these experience memorable that people need to remember that is there a way to measure that memorability?

Joe Pine 21:11
Yes, it’s it’s, it’s still more of an art versus a science in terms of memorabilia, you can survey people, you can think of them you can watch their social media posts, right, and how often they mentioned something you can do sentiment analysis when they talk about you and so forth. One company I know, immersion neuro from famous neuroscientist Paul Zak has created the ability to measure how engaged or immersed somebody is in an experience through Fitbit devices, and other such devices, right. So they actually can measure the blood flow of your body. They do fMRI, correlate that to what’s going on in your brain. And they can actually draw you the dramatic structure of an experience and show when you’re engaged in when you’re not through through any sort of experience. So the science is starting to catch up with the art and be able to measure that level of attention and engagement. And often and you can use a proxy for time. Right? So how much time are people spending in your experience? Right, that’s a great proxy for the attention as well. And as well as how much money they’re spending, one of the one of and I know, I know, you you like this part, but one of the things we added in the new edition of the book is the concept of the money value of time. Right? The money value of time, is it allows you to compare across industries and other companies by simply saying how many how much expenditures per minute, there are customers providing you, right, so like if you go to a Starbucks, for example, and you spend $5 on a cup of coffee, and you spend a half hour or an hour in the place, enjoying the experience, the aesthetic experience they provide? Well, you’re actually spending five to 10 cents per minute, right? That’s what it works out to. If you go to a movie and span you like 12 US dollars for a two hour experience, you’re fending 10 cents per minute for that movie, you go to a to Walt Disney World, right and you spend over $100 for eight or 910 hour a day, guess what you’re spending over 20 cents per minute, right every minute in there, you just take a couple of dimes or a quarter out of your pocket and throw it away. That’s what you’re spending. So use that to compare across industries. And the higher the money value of time or MBT then the greater level of engagement and intention that you’re doing the greater value of the time that they have for for their money. And many places now like escape rooms, as well as immersive art exhibits like Meow Wolf and the Van Gogh experience and others. They’re getting for 3040 50 cents per minute. They’re getting more a higher MBT than even Disney has on its theme parks.

Gregorio Uglioni 24:00
And props. Let’s add me one example. Because in Europe who wants to watch soccer match Champions League, then you pay 90 euros for 90 minutes. And then they’re speaking for one euro for each minutes.

Joe Pine 24:12
There’s X. Exactly. It’s a it’s a great example because it works out so well. Right? You’re playing a Euro minute for a for a soccer match. That’s a very high MVT.

Gregorio Uglioni 24:24
Exactly. Thank you very much. I think the last two questions on the book. Did you really expect it to be easy to get such a success out of this book?

Joe Pine 24:34
Yes. Yes, absolutely. We thought we thought I’d like the greatest concept in the world. In fact, I’ll tell you a little story before that is that I told you how he discovered it out of mass customization. And I was working with a now my partner Jim Gilmore. But then he was my biggest client. He was a consultant with CSC. And he was in I was scheduled to meet with him fly to cleave And so and like the day or two before I had really started thinking about this even more, and I got down, I got out a one night, I couldn’t go to sleep. So I got out this giant sheet a sheet of paper, and I started writing all the economic distinctions between all the five economic offerings, right, everything I could think of, and then that really likes to write these really are distinct, this is different. And so I thought, I just thought, well, this is so good, right? This has got to be released in the world. So the next morning, I took that piece of paper, I typed it up. And then I call Jim secretary. And I told her, I says, I’m going to fax you a one piece shadow sheet of paper, I want you to go over the fax machine, please. And because I don’t want anyone else to see it right when it’s coming through, but I didn’t want to take that sheet of paper, put it in a manila envelope, seal it up, and give it to Jim, but write on it do not open until you see Joe. Right. You know, I did that for two reasons. i One is I do would bug him all day long to have a sheet that he can’t open up and to if my plane went down on the way to Cleveland, I wanted somebody to have this so that it would get out into the world. Right. So now and I can’t say that all the huge success of experience companies in the last 25 years are because of me, right? That’s not the case at all. They I mean, Disney started doing its thing in 1955 when they came out with with with Disneyland. And but it’s that it’s that. So II, so the experience of counting would have haven’t come about even if I’d never come along to name it. Eventually somebody else would have named it but it does. It did help many companies recognize much earlier than they would have that. Yeah, this is something different. This is something distinct, this is something that we need to do.

Gregorio Uglioni 26:50
Thank you very much. We are running out of time, and the game is coming to an end. But I would like to ask you three questions. There are short questions, the firt. The first one is, is there an order book that you can mention that helped you during your life? Or do or during your career?

Joe Pine 27:09
Can I yeah, in terms of what the book that changed my life is Stan Davis’s book Future Perfect. It’s from 1987. But it’s as applicable today as it was when he read it wrote it. I was a strategic planner for IBM when I read it. And when I read it was like the heavens opened up in the angel saying because he he did, he coined the term mass customization. He had a chapter in there and mass customized. I said, Yes, this is exactly what we need to do at IBM. And I’ve worked to get it into our plans and strategies and our division at IBM. And then IBM sent me to MIT for a year to get my master’s degree. And I said, Well, I’m gonna write a thesis on mass customization. And I’m gonna turn it into a book, I mean, immediately. That’s what I said. That’s what I did. That, of course, led to the experience economy, he has another chapter in there called no matter. And the idea being is that the amount of materiality that the corporations need us to create economic value is decreasing, you know, almost exponentially and the singularity folks will tell you it is exponentially. And so there’s much greater value to be had in digital technology and how you reduce that materiality. And that inspired the book I mentioned earlier, infinite possibility, where I recognize Well, if there’s matter and no matter, there must be space and no space, real places, virtual places, there must be time and no time, right time, space, and matter are the trinity of variables that make up the universe and all of our experience. But digital technology enables, again, no time, no space, and no matter. And that framework is the core of infinite possibility that looks at all the different ways that you can fuse, the real and the virtual. So that’s the book so I wouldn’t be here today. Talk with you, Greg, if it weren’t for that book.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:56
Thank you very much. And perhaps you spoke about this book that was written quite a lot of time ago. What do you foresee in customer experience, for example, in 10 years from now?

Joe Pine 29:09
Well, hopefully 10 years from now, everybody and customer experience will recognize the difference between great service and great experiences, the distinctions between those and work effect as much effectively on experiences as on services, because you so experiences are built on top of service, part of the progression of economic values that all of these offerings are built upon the ones below, you can’t have a transformation without experiences that the change that you can’t have experienced without the sort of service activities that make that happen. You can’t have services activities without the objects that use to do those services. And you can’t have those objects unless you have the raw materials and commodities. So so like you go to a Disney World theme park again, since we’ve mentioned them. You want the service aspects to be nice and easy and convenient. You don’t want to spend 20 minutes and ambition getting into the park you want With that, boom done. So you got, well, let’s get a magic band. Let’s go boom, done. Beep you’re on right takes a fraction of a second practically. That’s what you want. So that sounds great. All of the things that are doing to make the the services frictionless are great, because again, they free up people’s time, right? And their money, but but people’s time, the most precious resource on the planet is the time of individual human beings. And great CX frees up that time, again, so they can spend on experiences. But in the CX profession, we need to then spend the time on making sure those experiences are done well that those experiences are engaging, compelling, and especially a memorable.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:47
Thank you very much. The last question before we close with the golden nugget, if somebody would like to contact you to ask your questions.

Joe Pine 30:57
If you want to contact me, you can connect on me with LinkedIn as as you did, Greg, and I’m also on Twitter at Joe Pine. And then we have a website strategic strategic horizons with an where you can learn all about me my partner or ideas, I’ve got thought posts out there, where I extend the ideas from the book that you can look up. We have an on there, you also find out about our experience economy expert certification course, a four and a half day immersion in the experience of time where you truly become an expert and all the ideas principles and frameworks we have. As well as we have an onstage offering, that’s frontline video training. So if you’re your frontline, your frontline people, you’re interacting directly with customers, you need to understand that work is theater, and you need to direct your workers to act, and onstage is a great way to be able to do that.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:55
Thank you very much. You also have an outstanding newsletter that I will add into into the show notes that people can can join and subscribe it clinically. Yeah,

Joe Pine 32:04
quarterly newsletter and it’s on our contact page.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:08
Thank you very much. And now we’re really coming to an end. The last question is Joe Pine’s golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new today, we’d like to leave to the audience.

Joe Pine 32:19
I would add the golden I can I leave as I would suggest every person in the audience ask themselves, what business are we really in? What business are we really in? Are we in the business of extracting commodities, making goods, delivering services, staging experiences, and, and even guiding transformations? Right? And so for example, for for you, Greg, and others who are really helping companies embrace these concepts. Well, you’re really in the transformation business, right? You need to help companies guide you to guide them into achieving their aspirations of becoming great experience companies. And so it’s always important to ask what business you’re in and recognize the opportunities of being in the higher level businesses in the progression of economic value.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:12
I conclude saying thank you very much, Joe. For me, it was a great experience. I will remember for a long time this discussion, thank you very much for your time. Really appreciate that. Thank you.

Joe Pine 33:22
Thank you. Great. Thanks for having me on.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:25
Joe, please stay with me and to the audience: Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. Please watch the web page of Joe look on that look on at these videos because I think you can really learn something and we can drive the customer experience and the business for everybody. For what Thank you very much. It was great pleasure.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it. Until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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