Customers know that you suck with Debbie Levitt – E105

Episode released on: 19. December 2022

Customers know that you suck with Debbie Levitt Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Debbie Levitt

LinkedIn Headline: The Mary Poppins of CX/UX. ☂️ I fly in, find & solve problems, transform companies & teams, and sing a few songs. Strategically combining customer-centricity with Agile & Lean.

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 01:49 Debbie’s introduction
  • 03:09 Debbie’s value
  • 05:09 CX is the table
  • 06:49 What makes companies customer centric. And how do you define customer periphery?
  • 09:14 Customer obsessed. what does it really look like for users?
  • 12:37 Where can Customer Journeys Map help or hurt?
  • 17:12 Why do customer experience programs fail so often?
  • 24:00 Agility & CX
  • 29:33 The one chapter
  • 32:33 Debbie’s book suggestion
  • 35:02 Debbie’s contact details
  • 35:49 Debbie’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Debbie Levitt’s Contact Details:

Her book suggestion:

  • Information Architecture: For the Web and Beyond by Louis Rosenfeld, Peter Morville, Jorge Arango
  • Families and How to Survive Them by John Cleese and Robin Skynner

Debbie’s Golden Nuggets:

  • Everything does come back to that strategy idea. I think as long as CX projects are seen as cross NPS off the list, cross better customer support off the list, we are still not making very good products or very good services. And we have to start with a better strategy to help us get there. And then beneath the strategy are all of the tactics and processes and approaches. And who do we have to hire and why do we have to. I’m very much for hiring specialists. There’s a place for people to come in and guess it: research work. But is that really serving us? So my golden nugget: strategy first, and make sure you’ve got the buy in and budget to see that strategy through.

“Strategy first, and make sure you’ve got the buy in and budget to see that strategy through.” Debbie Levitt on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

what did we discussed?

Gregorio Uglioni
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation, and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I am sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you.

Ladies and gentleman, tonight, it’s really a big pleasure because I have Debbie Levitt it together with me. Hi Debbie, how are you?

Debbie Levitt
Hey, thanks for having me on.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much for your time. It’s really, really a big pleasure. You published a new book “customer knows that you suck”. And you find time to join this podcast, three, four days after you publish that. And therefore Thank you very much for your time, I’m quite sure you are invited to a lot of podcasts, do a lot of webinars, and you take the time for my podcast. Therefore, from my side, thank you very much.

Debbie Levitt
Thank you actually, mostly right now I am editing my audio book so that I can try to get it out by Christmas. So if everybody wants to, if you find you don’t hate my voice, and you want to hear it for what I anticipate to be 13 or 14 hours, maybe you want the audiobook,

Gregorio Uglioni
and not only the audiobook, because I think that’s the best, the best possible gift that you can do: a book to somebody else. And today, we suggest to you: customers know you suck. And I started reading the book, it’s really a great book, and therefore buy it on Amazon or all the platform that you can you can get. But now it’s time to introduce the discussion introduce the game. We have really a great player in the customer experience UX field, and is Debbie. Debbie, could you please introduce yourself?

Debbie Levitt
Yeah, sure. Hi, everybody. I’m Debbie Levitt. And my company is called delta CX. We are a full service CX and UX consultancy. We do projects training and consulting, we do some business design, we do a lot of helping companies improve their CX and UX programs and workers and elevate the practice. And we do some business design helping companies being more customer centric. I’ve been doing this in one form or another for over 20 years. So you know, the gray hairs are real. And basically, my background is coming more from the UX and psychology and strategy side. So I started out kind of as that web designer, but thinking, hey, wait a minute, you know, businesses need more than a website, they need a strategy. And they need a larger customer strategy, a brand and marketing strategy. I was thinking about all of these things back in the mid 90s. And that has evolved over time into more CX and UX specialized research and interaction design and prototyping and things like that. So but mostly, I love the strategy work. I love going into companies and teams that are a gigantic mess and trying to help everything get better.

Gregorio Uglioni
But I think this is extremely important, the strategy piece to plan the next step right in the right way, and then be efficient throughout the journey, the customer centric journey. But before we deep dive into your book, and understand better about customer experience, which values drive you in life?

Debbie Levitt
you know, it’s always hard for me to answer this because I feel like my life centers around one core value. And that’s just honesty. And I think being an American from the East Coast, it’s just kind of natural. You know, I think Americans are known for being a bit more bold, a bit more blunt, a bit more out there. And I grew up in a family of lawyers and so you know, the the things I heard all through my childhood were a real focus on intelligent arguments and making sure you you have a good case for something making sure you’ve done your research and, and making sure you’re telling the truth. You don’t want to lie to a bunch of lawyers and so. So I feel like if you have honesty, then the rest of it naturally falls into place. Hopefully you have some care for for others. Some people say empathy, and we like to set this off on my YouTube show. But I would just call it care. Not everybody has true empathy. But I would say we must have care and be invested in each other and in our users and customers. But to me, the center of all of it is honesty, because I think once there is dishonesty, that’s where I think we see so many things crumbling not only in our personal lives, but certainly at work where we’re not as honest about those numbers, those metrics, those survey results that customer satisfaction. We’re not totally honest about how good is our product about how good is our product market fit? So, to me, honesty is just at the center of everything.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And I think you are extremely honest also with your audience, your customers, because if we open up your web page, then we find an hastag. And for me was Oh, that’s really, really important. CxIsTheTable? Could you please comment a bit on that?

Debbie Levitt
Yeah, I made a graphic for it. But now I can’t find it. So I can’t roll it out right now. But yeah, my, my, one of my hashtags is CX is the table. And that’s because I often hear a lot of people from CX and UX saying, we don’t have a seat at the table, we’re not being taken seriously. We’re not elevated, we’re not equal, we’re not empowered. And I say, wait a minute, the some of this is definitely real. And some of it I think we’re accidentally doing to ourselves. And I think we have to stop acting like, I want a seat at a table. And remember that what we do is the table and everyone is sitting at it. Everyone needs customers to be successful. The sales team, the marketing team, the strategists, business analysts, product managers, and owners, engineers, UX CX, everybody, as soon as we don’t have so many customers, or they’re reducing their utilization of us. That’s it, it that is the table. So we have to stop saying, well, the table is the product and we’re going to be product lead or the table is our code, we’re going to be engineering lead, I say we have to be value lead, not company values, the value we deliver to customers and users. And to me, that means the customer experience is the table and we’re all sitting at it.

Gregorio Uglioni
I think it totally makes sense. And I really liked this idea of value that gets delivered. Because every customer is feeling and getting a different value from an interaction with the company. And there’s this makes totally sense. I think you have one next to see x is the table you are sharing another thing that I think it’s really interesting. It’s it’s in your definition. What makes companies customer centric. And how do you define customer periphery?

Debbie Levitt
Yeah, customer periphery is a term I made up for the opposite of customer centric, it’s where the customers are not in the center of our world, they are in the periphery. We you know, we kind of see them, but they’re out here. We’re not making them the focus. And in some cases, they’re they’re the pawns, we move around the chessboard, to please the king and the queen. So I think what when we think about customer centricity, I know there’s a lot of different definitions that are out there. Some people say it’s just marketing, it’s just good customer support. And I say, you know, we’d need a lot less marketing and a lot less customer support, if we had great product services and experiences. But they’re so often not great. And you know, this, because of the number of times a day you want to throw your phone out a window, you want to hit your computer with a hammer, you want to yell at somebody you want to rage tweet or rage LinkedIn at some company. We know that what companies produce is not good enough. And so customer centricity reminds us that we must take the time to understand our customers, which means researching with them going beyond a survey and doing really good qualitative observational research really understanding them, their needs their pain points, because when we’re not putting them at the center, they’re in the periphery. So I say customer periphery ik, because customer peripheral would sound like you plug them into a computer. But I think that customers know when when they’re not the focus of a company. And that’s why I say customers know, you suck. The book kind of named itself. I like to tell the Italians, when I try to explain my book to Italians, I say, Eat clean the sun, okay, ffice Kiefel.

Gregorio Uglioni
That’s a very, very nice, yes, I really like it and enjoy. It’s the perfect translation. And at the beginning of your book, you’re also sharing this example that you tried to book a flight first with the AMEX card, then with the MasterCard, then with the visa, and you’ve had quite a lot of issues. And I can relate to that. Because I was working in a credit card company, we got a lot of inquiries in relation exactly to these issues that we were not able to solve because it was the problem from the other company, but the customer is seeing it as one and therefore it’s important to find way to solve that. And you mentioned already several times customer centric customer centricity, and we know that one company it’s near, claims to be customer obsessed. But what does it really look like for most of the user?

Debbie Levitt
Yeah, we, if you if we can name names here, you’re talking about Amazon, they claim to be customer obsessed. But every time I tried to take a look at Amazon, whether objectively or selfishly, I’m trying to figure out where is that customer obsession? I think they’re obsessed with making me do things. But that’s not the same as the way I see customer centricity because I see customer centricity as, what would customers choose for themselves? What are they trying to get done? In your site? Or app or store or amusement park or hotel? What is their task? What is their need? And Amazon looks like, sure they’re obsessed with me, but they’re obsessed with? What can they sell me? And how often can they sell it? And sure, I get it. Ecommerce wants to sell things and make money. But I don’t feel like I am benefiting from this. One of the stories that I tell though it’s not in the book. I don’t think it’s in the book is when I had ordered a headlamp from Amazon. And so Amazon knew I bought a headlamp they have that data. And when I needed to replace the battery in it, I went back to Amazon and I searched for the battery. Weeks after that every recommendation I got on Amazon was for E cigarettes and vaping. And at first I couldn’t figure it out. How does Amazon think I’m a smoker or a vapor when I’ve never smoked anything in my life, and I mean anything. And finally I put it together myself. I said, Oh, the battery. The battery that goes in the headlamp also goes in E cigarettes. But wait a minute, why couldn’t Amazon put these together and say, Debbie loves her headlamp so much she wants to replace the battery in it. Maybe we should sell her batteries, headlamps. Other outdoor gear. And so when people say Oh, Amazon so personalized, I say, Are you sure it tried to sell me e cigarettes, it tried to sell me a second kitchen sink. I don’t know how many kitchens, Amazon thinks I have. But it’s just the one. And so I think that we have to be careful that there is obsession, and there is obsession within companies around customers and users. But I think that obsession has become what can we make people to do, rather than how do we truly create satisfaction, they’re not the same.

Gregorio Uglioni
And now we know your secrets Debbie. Because we know we know how you are so active. And now we know why you have to headlamps so that you can work also during night. And therefore you can like use the light and work also during night with your YouTube channel. Your activity in LinkedIn writing books, consulting and everyhting what you are doing no joke aside, but what you are mentioning, what you are sharing is that I think what we are seeing and, and really facing issues as a customer, when we are interacting with companies, they define the best possible customer journey. And then the biggest issue starts when a customer goes through the journey because he wants different things. And perhaps from your point of view, where can customer journey maps help or hurt?

Debbie Levitt
Yeah, customer journey maps are really tough. And I find that right now everybody thinks they are the panacea, they are the fix for everything. You know, if you if something’s going wrong in your company, make a customer journey map and just get trained to make customer journey maps. But what a lot of this training and books and other things are missing are the evidence, the data, the qualitative research, very often they say make a customer journey map from some surveys or make a customer journey map by getting everybody together in a workshop and saying what we think we know about customers. Look, you can make a customer journey map and in the end, you can hold it in your hand or take a picture of it on the wall or whatever and say we have a customer journey map. But who does it represent? And does it represent reality? Or does it represent our best guesses? And that’s where this starts to get funky. Because I see a lot of courses out there that say Oh, you want a better customer experience. You want to dominate your market and increase your revenue. Hey, make customer journey maps. We ripped an Adobe blog post apart on my show a week or so ago because it was how to make an effective customer journey map. And the article basically said make a customer journey map and it was like that didn’t help at all. So I think we have to be very careful with our customer journey maps that first of all, We’re looking at the true end to end experience from including the early stuff that we think we can’t affect decision making that people do even before they’re searching for what we do or sell decision making collaboration, budgeting standards, there’s all kinds of things that happen as part of the customers task or potential customers task that we don’t always map because we think well, that’s outside of our little ecosystem, we, what can we do about that. And that’s where we’re missing the good stuff. Because once we learn how people make decisions, who they collaborate with, it opens up a whole new world, that’s really where a lot of the innovation would be. Innovation is a fake buzzword at this point, because who’s really innovating. I love to ask questions on LinkedIn, like what’s the most innovative thing you’ve seen in the last few years, and people either can’t think of anything, or they usually think of something in medicine, or science technology. Nobody ever says, Oh, that new version of that app was so innovative, yet every company is throwing themselves into a spin to hold more workshops to say we have to be innovative. You’re not even doing the basics, right? customers know you suck. So be careful of the customer journey map, be careful that you don’t only map the happy outcome. I mean, you’ve seen it. You’ve seen it, how many times how many times have you seen the customer journey map where they start out, okay, then they’re sad, then they end happy. But that’s not realistic, many of us don’t end happy. And where’s that customer journey map. So I think there’s a lot more to do. And that’s where I think companies have to even look more towards service blueprinting and more expanded journey mapping approaches, then some of the really microscopic workshop based short things that books and courses are telling everybody, Hey, just do it. And it’s going to solve all your problems. It isn’t, you still need a strategist to figure out what we have, and where we need to go from here and how

Gregorio Uglioni
what you’re saying I think it’s really key because that’s the strategy piece, what I’m seeing with companies, they’re creating a lot of different customer journeys, as usual, always the epic path. But this is another thing. But one journey is always trying to standardize everything, the order journey from the other department is trying to personalize experience. And the other one is trying to do something different. Without a strategy, a company cannot have a common journey towards the end to end journey that customer are really, really leaving that’s on one side. And on the other side. Sometimes as a customer, I don’t care to be happy, and it’s to the what, what I need to do, please execute that your payments topic to your payments example. You want only to book you don’t be don’t need to be epic, or getting somebody feeling empathetic with you. You wanted to book your flight, and then you can enjoy your flight flight. And not this this this thing. And perhaps from your point of view, from your big experience with company and with consulting. Why do customer experience programs fail so often?

Debbie Levitt
Yeah, the customer experience thing is strange. And there’s a few reasons that I find these things fail. First of all, the company thinks they want change, but they really don’t. Very often when a company has had success, they don’t want to change, they think they’re getting something right. Even if they could have more success, even if they’re not prepared for what’s around the corner. There’s this sense of we’re good enough. And you hear that from product managers, engineers, marketers sales, that is probably what’s killing companies the most is the sense of we’re good enough yet. And I know we’ll probably talk about this later that runs against what Agile and Lean are supposed to be about. Agile and Lean are supposed to be about working in cycles and constantly looking back at yourself, your team’s your performance, to continually get better. But so many companies don’t want to get better. First of all, the level of introspection involved is scary. A lot of companies have terrible leadership, toxic people, narcissists abusive people. And if they had to stop and look at themselves and look at what it’s like to work there, we’re gonna have to make some changes, and that’s the thing. So a lot of companies claim they want change, but they don’t really want change. And we have to be careful of that. It’s something you’re I know you’re not up to that chapter yet, because everyone just got the book in the last few days. But I talk about how this is in my investigation chapter. I forgot what number that is. 18 And how very often I find that when I go into a car opinion, I interview the workers, especially at the lower levels, they will tell me that they have changed fatigue, they’re so tired of of all this change, but then they’ll also tell me, nothing’s changing. And we’re not seeing the changes we need. So what’s really happening in these companies is what I call promise of change fatigue, you get executives and leaders coming out with new values and new visions and new things to try to keep people excited, and try to keep them working at the company. But then they don’t really make the changes that people want to see. And so I know I’m all over the place. And there’s so many things I’m excited to talk about. But I think that’s one of the key problems. But in in the change not happening. And I think the CX programs can fail, obviously, they fail for more obvious reasons. They didn’t get the budget, they didn’t get the the people, they didn’t get the right experts, they got the people who did a two day course, and are now sure they can journey map, I once applied for a job, which had a CX title. And they gave me a challenge. And the challenge was make a customer journey map. And I emailed back and I said, Who’s the persona? What’s their task? What evidence am I working from? And they were like, no, no, just make one. And I was like, You do realize that I’m going to completely make this up, it’s going to have no basis in facts or evidence or data. And they’re like, yeah, yeah, we just want to see how you make a customer journey map. Well, I didn’t want to work there, if that’s how they make customer journey maps. So CX programs can fail. And really what you said before is the top of the mountain, when we don’t have the overarching strategy, when we think we can do CX in pieces, when we think CX is how can we make our NPS this much better this quarter? Or how can we get a better score at this or, you know, when we when we look at CX in these little incremental changes, I can tell there isn’t a larger overarching strategy. And that’s usually because you haven’t given the program to someone with that strategic ability, you’ve given it to someone who maybe has a more tactical approach, like, Ah, I have a few interesting promotions, we could run that maybe we’ll get that NPS score up a quarter of a percentage point or whatever the number is, you know, if sorry, NPs isn’t percentage points, but you know what I mean. So we can’t just be tactical, and we can’t just throw things at a dark board and hoped that a couple of discounts and a couple of promotions, and giveaways are going to be really improving satisfaction, loyalty, retention, and things like that. So I think for CX programs to not fail, we’ve got to start with something more strategic. And we’ve to go a little slower and make sure there is executive and leader buy in that the people in that CX program, running it, strategizing it, planning it, seeing it through, have the authority to make change. And then as you’ll see in chapter 1890, and I don’t remember but I’ve got a chapter called strategy and planning. And that’s where I introduce some new models and things that I’ve come up with that will help people plan this stuff out. And, and go in a little bit more slow motion so that they can get this right, because we just saw from McKinsey’s report that when a CX program fails, some companies say you can’t CX isn’t important. Let’s not bother trying again. Now what

Gregorio Uglioni
I fully agree with you, and strategy is chapter 18, because it’s your February chapter, and therefore I was picking that out. That’s what you said

Debbie Levitt
Look at my own, but I only have a copy of my book,

Gregorio Uglioni
I am quite sure it’s chapter 18. But I have the solution for failing CX programs, you know, which one which is the solution… is agility. Let’s bring another buzzword into into the discussion. And then we can solve that because customer experience is not working pretty well, then let’s try with agility. And let’s thread one of the run. Now it’s now back to real and, and write a good discussion. Is it possible to find a fit between agility and customer experience? What’s your view on that?

Debbie Levitt
Well, I think possible is the right word. Because when we think about some of the foundational principles of agile either going back to the Agile Manifesto, where we talk about principle nine is about good design enhances agility principle one is about our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through continuous delivery of valuable software principles. Who is we welcome required, we welcome change even late in the game, we principle five, give empower your teams trust them to get the job done. The Agile Manifesto principles have a lot of great stuff in them. They’re not perfect. And sure they’re not recent. But the core is there. And it makes sense. And there are flavors of agile that still carry that intention. But what I’ve seen in the implementation of Agile is that very often, the implementation of Agile is not about principle 10 simplification and making sure we’re not doing unnecessary work, which is the core of true lean lean isn’t the least we could do Lean is being smarter about what we do to cut risk and waste. We’re not caring about good design, we’re not caring about customer satisfaction. And that’s in the implementation of Agile. So we have to remember that agile at its core was invented so that engineers could work more efficiently, because I’m certainly old enough. And you may or may not be old enough to remember when a company spent two years to release a piece of software. Now that’s seen as sacrilegious. Now, you can be burned at the stake for suggesting that we take two years to release a piece of software. So you know, I understand that it was a way to make engineering more efficient, to change how project management worked there to be more cyclical to go in smaller pieces. I’m for it, I get it. But we didn’t have to sacrifice customer satisfaction, and customer needs, and customer outcomes. You know, we keep trying to put band aids on our own problem. We say, Oh, well, it looks like we’re not doing enough for customer satisfaction. So we’ll start saying outcomes over outputs. Congratulations, you said it. Everybody bought the coffee mug that said it? What did you really do? What did you change? How were you doing your agile or Scrum or anything else differently to refocus on value quality, customer experiences? How are you making sure that you understand customer problems, and you’re truly solving them? And for the most part, that’s not happening in Agile environments? People are saying, It’s good enough, we’ll fix it later. How often does it get fixed later? And if we didn’t understand it in the first place, and we couldn’t get it right in the first place? How do we know we’re gonna get it right later. This is like a whole bunch of cycles of guesses and waste and risk. And yet here we are claiming were Agile and Lean. And this is really the opposite of Agile and Lean. So I believe that customer centricity will make companies more agile, leaner, because you will reduce your waste, you will reduce your risk. I’ll give you an example. I’m a big fan of Disney parks and hotels. I’m not into princesses and movies so much, but I love the parks and hotels. I’m a obsessed fan with Walt Disney World in Florida. And I bought into their timeshare system, and I got an email some weeks ago, we’re going to be changing our login, we’re going to be adding two factor authentication. I think I got three emails on that. And I was just like, whatever. And then two days ago, I got an email that said, we rolled out the new login, and we found some problems with it. And we’re going to roll it back and put back the old login. Now, you know, from where everybody listening knows when you have to roll back to the previous version. That is a giant disaster. That’s an absolute disaster. That’s a CX and UX disaster. That’s obviously an engineering and QA fail. Somebody didn’t test that enough. This is this is an absolute disaster. And customers know you suck. So congratulations on being agile. Maybe you were fast. Maybe you got that, you know, maybe you were on time and on budget, and everybody clapped for you How nice. But then you had to roll it back. Are you still fast? Are you still at budget when it has to be rolled back and redone? And so I think we’re fooling ourselves by thinking, Well, that was fast. So everything is going well. But the wheels are falling off the car.

Gregorio Uglioni
Exactly. And I think that’s why you should read half comers. No, you suck. I didn’t pay him to say this. No, no, that’s That’s true. You know, that’s not my podcast, and therefore I can state whatever I want no sponsor. And the last question in relation to your book. Exactly. It’s if somebody has, let’s say only 10 minutes 15 Minutes. And they should select only one chapter to read, which is the chapter you would suggest to read.

Debbie Levitt
And that’s probably 18 strategy and planning because basically the books broken into parts. And so the the the introduction kind of says, how did we get here? What’s going on? And how did we get here? Some people will feel like they already know some people will be surprised. Part two is kind of definitions of customer centricity and the importance of good research and being evidence based. We have evidence based decision making and things like Scrum. But are we really doing it? What is our evidence? It can’t just be a survey. Surveys are so often manipulated, boo, boo surveys. So part two takes a look at what is customer centricity? And why do we need to be evidence based? Part three is where are we making a lot of our mistakes, we’re making our mistakes. And our strategies are planning our research, we’re not really caring about all our customers. I’ve got interviews with an accessibility expert. I’ve got interviews with an expert in LGBTQ i a plus in the queer community, we are leaving people out even as we pretend to have everybody say it with me empathy. So And part three looks at that. And then part four says, Okay, now what do we do from here. So I think if people who already feel like they might know some of those other things, or may or may not share my perspectives, if you just want to know what to do next, I’d probably be starting around chapter 18, which is called strategy and planning. And I’d probably say Part four is definitely the part of the book, which is the most actionable. It’s not, I’m so sick of fluffy stuff, and CX, we are surrounded with fluffy stuff like improve customer experiences, make a customer journey, map, increase ROI. Nobody ever tells you how to do these things. I can’t tell you how many articles I read while writing the book. And they all just say these things as if you’re magically going to know what to do. Nobody’s giving actionable advice. So I wanted to make sure the book was highly actionable. But of course, I had to first write all the setup, what’s going on? Where are we getting this wrong? Where are things breaking down? Are we really empowered? And what’s our strategy. So then I would say, if you’re going to jump in, you’re going to miss a lot of good stuff, and greed stories and, and cool things for you to try and exercises. But if you’re going to jump in, and you’re a CX professional, jump into chapter 18.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And we are also coming to, to the end of this game. But in the last few minutes of this game, I still have three questions for you. The first one, is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience that helped you during your career or during your life?

Debbie Levitt
Hmm, there’s a few. I don’t know if I can talk about a personal book, but or I would say, one of the best books in in the work universe is , for the things called for the web and beyond. Now, fourth edition, up to the fourth edition as the last one. Now, this is a little bit more focused on very specific UX work. But I think that information architecture is something that everybody should understand, because it’s about making sure that we organize content and information and hierarchies and taxonomies for the way our customers and users think, if you aren’t even doing that, or you don’t understand that concept. There’s so much you’re you’re not likely to get right. It is a long book, and so as mine, but I think people do need to know about information architecture. On the personal note, I would say the book that helped me the most in my life is families and how to survive them by John Cleese, the famous comedian for Monty Python. And his therapist, a guy named I think it was Robin Skynner, but I know the books a little hard to find I read it decades ago. But that that was on a personal side, that was very helpful.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And we’re coming really, to them. personal suggestion, this is: customers knows you suck. Please, please pause this podcast, go to Amazon, buy a copy, Kindle copy or hard copy, you can find everything. And soon you can also have the audio version of this book. It’s really a great book.

Debbie Levitt
Thank you. And I want to mention, if you go to Delta cx dot media, when you get to the page for the book there, I’ve got all the links out to Amazon and also to let people know there is a large print format for people who prefer larger type. From the website, you can buy an ePub or a PDF. And as of when we’re recording this, I’m still working on the audio book. So hopefully that’ll be done by when 2022 turns to 2023. So I’m hoping to make all formats available to people in Maybe in the future other languages?

Gregorio Uglioni
And if somebody would have some question always possible to contact you.

Debbie Levitt
Yes, please, please. There’s a contact form on Delta cx dot media, we’re going to be putting up a new website might be out by the time people hear this, I don’t know, customer centricity.com. Guess who owns that? So we’re going to be putting up a new site at customer centricity.com. You can find me there, you can find me on LinkedIn. We’ve got the Delta CX YouTube channel, anywhere you find me, please send a note any I’m happy. I don’t really hang out on Twitter. Don’t tweet at me. But anywhere you find me, I’m always happy to take questions. I want to hear your story. I want to hear what’s broken and what’s going on for you, so that we can figure out how to make it better. So yes, can’t find me, contact me. Tell me your stories.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you, and you will find all this information. Also in the details below. It’s it’s audio and web, you will find all the contact details of Debbie. And now we’re coming really to the last very last question is Debbie’s golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you want to leave to the audience.

Debbie Levitt
Yeah, I think there’s so many possible nuggets here, I think. But I think everything does come back to that strategy idea. I think as long as CX projects are seen as cross NPS off the list, cross better customer support off the list, we are still not making very good products or very good services. And we have to start with a better strategy to help us get there. And then beneath the strategy are all of the tactics and processes and approaches. And who do we have to hire and why do we have to I’m very much for hiring specialists. There you know, there’s a place for people to come in and guess it research work. But is that really serving us? So super nugget strategy first, and make sure you’ve got the buy in and budget to see that strategy through.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. As usual. I’m not commenting the Golden Nugget because it’s Debbie’s golden nugget. The only thing that I can say is, thank you very much for your time, Debbie. It was a great pleasure.

Debbie Levitt
Thank you so much for having me on. And I hope to hear from everybody soon.

Gregorio Uglioni
Sure. Please, Debbie stay with me to the audience. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. Feel free to contact me or to contact Debbie if you have any question. Thank you very much. Bye bye.

Debbie Levitt
Thank you.

Gregorio Uglioni
If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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