Are You Listening To The Whole Picture? with Nick Lygo-Baker – E122

Episode released on: 17. April 2023

Are You Listening To The Whole Picture? with Nick Lygo-Baker Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Nick Lygo-Baker

LinkedIn Headline: CX Strategy and Transformation – Chief Customer Experience Officer. Fine Tuning Customer and Employee Experience to Drive Business Performance Improvement. #CXMechanic


00:00 Game Start
00:40 Nick’s introduction
01:43 Nick’s values
02:34 Listening to customers
05:31 Every customer is different
07:32 Five voices
12:52 Voice of the Market
14:52 Voice of The Customers – Best practices
17:50 Voice of The Employees – Best practices
24:34 Bringing all the pieces together
28:40 The Future
33:28 Book Suggestion
34:50 Golden Nugget

and much more

Nick’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

Nick’s Golden Nuggets:

  • Insight without data is just opinion. So be wary of making decisions on insight that is just driven by one or two comments. data has to be there to, to underpin it and support it.

Insight without data is just opinion. So be wary of making decisions on insight that is just driven by one or two comments. data has to be there to, to underpin it and support it Nick Lygo-Baker on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

What did we discuss?

Gregorio Uglioni
Ladies and gentleman welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I am sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you.

Ladies and gentleman. Welcome back to the CX goalkeeper Podcast. Today I’m really, really thrilled because I’ve Nick Ligo-Baker, the CX mechanic together with me. Hi Nick, how are you?

Nick Lygo-Baker
thanks, Gregorio, lovely to be here.

Gregorio Uglioni
It’s a great pleasure, thank you very much for your time and for stopping by from the your, with your car into my pitch. And, and we started discussing about listening to the whole picture. But before we deep dive in this great topic, that also you wrote a chapter in customer experience three, the book that we wrote together with other 28, International CX professionals, we would like to learn more about you. And therefore, Nick, could you please introduce yourself? Yes, yep. So

Nick Lygo-Baker
I suppose I’ve spent about 17 years in in customer experience, predominantly agency side, looking at market research, customer research and tracking behavior. But more recently, I’ve spent time with a client side with organizations to help build their customer experience strategy, and then to implement change. And that trains transformation through whether it’s physical or digital, to enhance their customer experience for their customers and their employees in many ways.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you, I think this is the passion right? That we are faring in in common, that’s its customer experience. But also to understand better where you’re coming from? Could you please share your values that drive you in life?

Nick Lygo-Baker
Yeah, I mean, I think I have quite a few shared values with with, with a lot of my compatriots and CX. But I think one that stands out for me is the I’m a member of Rotary International, and their motto is service above self. And that, for me is always a kind of a mantra when thinking about customer experiences, how do we enrich? How do we bring a better experience to our customers in order to build a relationship with them. And that is a kind of a blueprint for thinking about how CX comes together has been one of my core drivers.

Gregorio Uglioni
I think that’s great. And I think everybody working in CX on the CX professional, are sharing the same validate that you share together with us. But now let’s really deep dive in listening to the old picture. I think that’s really, really interesting, what you are sharing in your chapter of the book customer experience 3, and let’s start unpacking all these different types of listening to the customer. But I know it’s perhaps a stupid question, let’s let’s start from the basic, why is there a need to listen to the customers.

Nick Lygo-Baker
And I think there’s a, there’s a, it’s very easy for organizations to think they know what to do that it’s best for their customers. In some cases, they do get feedback, they get told they get anecdotal information. But more often than not, it’s on a very small scale. And it’s very easy to react to those pieces of information, because they might feel like they’re really important. But if you don’t understand it in context, then you can make wrong decisions. And some of those decisions can be very costly, because they can alienate larger groups of customers, they could cost you a lot of money, and ultimately not deliver any value to either yourself as an organization or to your customers, in general. So, for me, I mean, as I say, having having been in customer market research for the best part 17 years, it’s, it’s kind of drilled into me that we need to understand what the needs of our customers are, in order to then build around that in order to then deliver that service. And a lot of small businesses start with a single person who can directly talk to their customers and engage. But as those organizations succeed, and they grow and they expand, the more distant the relationship is between the CEO who started the business and that customer. And in between that you end up with a huge disconnect between what those customers need and what the CEO thinks they need. And therefore, as time progresses, that disconnect can often mean that the organization starts to lose relevance, because they’re just not able to get that understanding because they’re just too far apart. So the purpose of voice of customer and in sort of the case of my chapter in the book is more holistic listening posts is to get a very rounded view of exact See what the customer is thinking, but also how they’re behaving, because people will tell you some things, and then deliver a different behavior. Because a lot of people just want to be nice, yeah, they want to give you positive feedback. Or if it’s customer service, they might be trying to resolve a problem and give you some negative feedback. But at the same time, those are two polar opposites. And it doesn’t necessarily represent the whole of your customer base. So for me, it’s really important to get that rounded view that informs your insights, which then support your decision making.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you, Nick, for for this great introduction, and thinking about what you’re saying listening to the customer understanding their needs, but at the end, being the devil’s advocate, every customer experience and event in a different way, based on their emotional status based on their knowhow based on their their former experiences, and therefore, how can companies cope with this with this fact that everybody’s different?

Nick Lygo-Baker
Well, I think that’s, that’s part of the the challenge that organizations face. And if they were to listen to a very small group, they might get an indication of feeling. But that group is going to be based on a very few and their opinion. And that opinion, again, will be influenced by the way they see it. And that’s absolutely fine. Because we are now in a world of everyone having a mobile phone, they’re more informed, they have the opportunity to create their own view their own customer lens on you as an organization. But that perception is is effectively how they view your brand. They however you position your brand promise they will receive and interpret that in their own way. So in order to then collect information back to say, Okay, well, if we make a change, what impacts that are going to have? Or are we delivering consistently, that there needs to be volume. So when it when it comes to researching and talking to customers? Yes, there are ways and means of delivering indicative research through focus groups and small groups, which help you guide the current hot topics. But to really understand the significance of them, you need some quantitative data and some volume that helps you prioritize, because you can then understand, okay, is this a really serious issue, is it to something it’s a nice to have, isn’t an absolute need. And therefore you can prioritize where you spend and how you spend your investment when you’re developing the organization.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you, Nick. And this is something that we discussed also, some episodes ago, together with Sergio Rossini, and he shared exactly the same view that you are sharing, if you are focusing only on the customer that provide you feedback, and the company gets, let’s say, roughly 5% response rate, then you’re really focusing only on a niche of customer. And often they are really, the detractors and the promoters because they want to say, Oh, thank you very much, you did something great, or this experience, the experience was really bad. And therefore I want to complain, and you are missing the complete holistic picture, as you said, and I think it is something really, really important for for the audience, to understand and to always keep keep in mind, and therefore you are sharing several sources to get feedback. And you are sharing five voices. Could you please elaborate on them a bit to quickly explain these five voices?

Nick Lygo-Baker
Yeah, I think we’re, as I was considering the types of information that you need to make better decisions. The first there’s always going to be voice of the customer, because that’s top of mind. And there are multiple ways of collecting that whether it’s satisfaction surveys, whether it’s actually political journey mapping, you know, looking at where people go in, if it’s a retail store, for example, some behavioral you information that you can click through various different ways. So that creates your, your voice of your customer effectively. But equally we have the anecdotal feedback that we can collect from our employees, those who are interacting with our customers directly, who are managing challenges who are able to help and provide really important feedback is this. It’s all very well making promises to customers if we don’t enable our employees to be able to deliver those. So we need to understand are we making it easy for our customers, but are we also making it easy for our employees to then deliver that. So that was another component that was really important in starting to get a holistic view. Next I’ve called Voice of service and this is effectively looking at how well is the training we’re giving our employees being delivered and manifesting itself on the shop floor. Now we can measure that through mystery shopping and other sort of audit type experiences where there’s consistency in the measurement rather than the freefall that you get in voc. But the key there is to understand okay, are we training the right things to deliver the brand promise that we’re making to our customers. So those three are the, I suppose the key people elements, which, which creates the majority of what we would probably discuss as customer experience. But there’s then a more of a macro understanding as to what might be happening. So voice or process is the fourth. And that is about what are we doing to create the right things in our organization to then deliver to our customer outcomes. And that could be anything from making sure we have products on shelves, it could be our communication, it could be our promotional marketing, what which are the touch points that really matter to customers? are we managing in order to make sure our processes are both efficient, because we don’t want to spend money in places that don’t add value. But equally to make sure that when we’re spending that money, it is directly, something that’s relevant to our customer base that we’re trying to target. And that’s, that’s a really key piece, because particularly, at the moment, I don’t know, certainly in the UK, at the moment, we’re seeing a shortage of certain products. So we have salad, for example, you can only buy in many stores, three items of salad. So you can have a cucumber or pepper and some tomatoes, bacon, I have one of each, because there’s a there’s a shortage of supply coming through to the, to the country. So that is a process that’s affecting my experience as a as a consumer, because I can’t buy as much of the products I would normally buy because of the restrictions that are in place. So to me that voice a process is about being then able to manage the communication to customers to say, and sometimes it’s beyond the control of the organization, we understand that. But it’s about then managing expectation. So what promise Are you making? And are you able to live up to that. And in this case, yeah, we were fully experiencing some in real terms, it might only feel like salad. But suddenly, when it’s taken away, it’s suddenly a big issue and everyone wants to buy it. So yeah, that creates that little bit of frustration, I guess, within the customer base, so that communication and management of expectations is really important. And you can to a degree, you can start to be more proactive with how you engage with customers by looking at your process. And you will know that okay, if you’re you’re suffering from a stock availability, or you have a production issue, that there’s going to be a knock on effects after a period of time. And that window is really important, because that’s the window of opportunity to communicate. And more often than not, the business isn’t as aware as it could be. And that can mean in terms of what’s going on from a customer communication perspective. You might know internally what’s going on. And most organizations are probably working really hard to fix those challenges. But they sit on it, they don’t go out and proactively communicate. And that is one of the opportunities for me that CX is bringing to the fore where that communication is about managing that expectation.

Gregorio Uglioni
And perhaps, short highlight on the voice of the market.

Nick Lygo-Baker
Yeah, I mean, how relevant is your product? Eventually. So often people manage their market share, they want to know what the where they sit in the organizational hierarchy in the market hierarchy. are they wanting to be number one in terms of scale, size, profitability, what have you, all of those things are important to understand, okay, where are we heading and what’s our future goal. But equally, the key for that market is to understand what what threats and competition could be coming in. And always go back to the sort of cameras as a as a component. So you now have probably as good if not better cameras than we would have done 10 years ago on a mobile phone. Now, if camera producers were not aware that mobile phones are going to come along, their market is almost turned inside out, they’ve now gone to two. So you either produce a camera, which fits into a mobile phone in order to produce a product, or you’ve become really specialist and nice producing really high end cameras, which phones can’t deliver. And again, that reduces your customer base, because you’re now talking to professionals rather than just amateurs potentially. And you’re also talking about a much higher value product. So your market has shifted. And we’ve seen the same in I guess, music consumption, we’ve moved from DVDs CDs into digital streaming. So the way in which people are consuming those products has shifted. And if your market and your organization is built around delivering the previous channel for about products, a lot of a sudden that disappears. If you’re not aware that that’s evolving or changing or you’re not pioneering and leading that, then there’s a real danger that you’re going to be left behind. And we’ve seen quite a few retail casualties over the years where their market has disappeared in a very rapid space of time. And it’s been very difficult for them to pivot and augment into the new ways of delivering their services.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much for this introduction about these five voices And let’s double click on two or three of them based on how much time we have. And I think one, one really important piece is the voice of the customer. And perhaps, on the voice of the customer side, which are the best practices that you are leveraging that you are really using. Everyday when you are involved in topics around voice of the customer.

Nick Lygo-Baker
I think the key is to understand what you want to get back from your voice or customer program. Are you in a complete space where you really don’t understand much about your customer? Or do you know enough to then be become a little bit more targeted about what you want to ask as a question. And the science around building questions is has been evolving quite rapidly over the last sort of certainly three or four years. And that’s really critical, because quite often you’d see questions which feel less relevant to your journey, because the organization hasn’t understood the journey that you’ve gone through. So the question might feel a little bit irrelevant. And secondly, you quite often get questions that by their nature, they must be asking two things. So based on this, how about that? And it’s well, you know, which one do you want to know about? Because actually, for me, the two things are separate, maybe. So it’s about reducing the ambiguity of the question, in order to make sure the response you get, can be really easily understood, because if it can’t be, or it’s difficult to interpret, then he is much harder to link that response to an action. And at the end of the day, what we’re trying to do is understand where we’ve got a gap, and what we can do to fill that gap to meet that customer need. So that that is an evolution is quite paramount. And I think the software that is now developing to do that level of analysis is far more powerful. So we’re able to dig deeper into the sentiment behind the responses that we get, and the facts to a degree, the questions with a yes or no answer are becoming far less relevant. Because we can’t know the answers. What we want to know is this is more of the dig deeper into the verbatim. What’s driving the answer? Is it something we know about? Is it something we can control? And is it something that we we need to be mindful of for the next decision that we make as an organization. And that’s, that’s quite difficult to to get to. But the services that are now being provided by some of the tech companies that provide voice or customer service, software, are getting to a stage where that level of interpretation is building. And the use of AI to effectively group and categorize types of response to be able to add validity to those responses is becoming really powerful. So that’s that’s probably the biggest thing for me when it comes to those exports of customer

Gregorio Uglioni
product. Thank you very much. And I think what what you’re saying, is it also possible to leverage in the voice of the employees, but perhaps also there, you have a longer longer experience in customer experience. How were you able to leverage the voice of the of the employees, what were also their your the best practices, practices that you used?

Nick Lygo-Baker
I think for me, the key was when we first started looking at bringing the two together was was that they were asking different things. The voice of employee, certainly 10 years ago, he was saying, Well, you know, do you like the company you work for? Are you paid enough to get enough holiday? Do you get on with the boss? So, you know, to practical questions and some political questions which we know the answers to, everyone wants more holiday and to get paid more. And no one’s gonna say they don’t like the boss. Yeah. So it just to ask that once or twice a year, it just seemed that it wasn’t really getting the flavor of what was happening. It always happened at a certain point where it probably led into performance reviews and bonus time. And it just the reason for doing it was sound, but the way it was delivered just didn’t really get to I think what most organizations wanted to understand. So for me, the the, the clear and first port of call was to align the customer journey with the employee journey. So almost asked the employee about their view of the customer journey as it was happening. And that made a huge difference to the ability to understand well, okay, we see that there’s some pinch points with the customers, then all of a sudden, we can discover that there are reasons that our employees can’t deliver the things that are affecting our customer experience. So all of a sudden, you’ve got this really intertwined relationship between process, our ability to enable our employees and the outcome for a customer. And that was a turning point in terms of getting a voice of an employee program, moving to the benefit of the overall CX side of research. That’s not to take away from the fact that Yes, we need to understand how that individual feels about their role, their job and performance. But you can subtly drop those things in on a more regular basis. So that you can start to see whether things move up or down or whether they’re generally consistent. But at the same time, by following the journey of the customer in the eyes of the employee, you get a very different lens on the way in which your organization is geared up to deliver to a customer outcome.

Gregorio Uglioni
I will say that, I think it’s extremely interesting what what you are saying, because at the end employees are the ones that are developing products, they’re doing the marketing campaigns, they are creating the journeys, they are responding to the phone, writing, chat, and so on. And therefore, it’s extremely important to keep them in the loop there, they have a really an extremely important role on this topic.

Nick Lygo-Baker
Well, this is it, I think, when we talk about that alignment, it very clearly focuses on those employees who are customer facing. And very quickly, you start to realize that actually everybody in the organization, their role is to support somebody to support another process that eventually has an impact on the frontline customer. So turning that back round, and recognizing that everybody has a role to play, is not only does it add a degree of purpose to that individual’s role, so it doesn’t matter how Junior they are in the organization, they are contributing. But it also starts to generate a, an understanding of whether those processes should be improved could be improved, or what have you. So I have an example I worked for an organization that was delivering food. And when a customer was ordering, you know, the payment process was slick, the online ordering process was great. The delivery, the product was fantastic. If there was a an issue, and a complaint, and we we know what percentage of people come through to call centers, I call that the iceberg of discontent, it’s just just your top 4% that are going to proactively get in touch with you. Of those who did, the amount of time it was taking to deliver a refund. And to make a decision on that response was quite quite long, there was some rules in place, which meant certain people couldn’t had to make a decision, sometimes in terms of providing a refund. So again, agents weren’t enabled. And when a refund was approved, it was sent through in an Excel sheet to effectively a finance clerk. And they would receive a file once or twice a week, they would process those and if it got to five o’clock in the evening, they’d go okay, my days done and off, they drop, then a handful of people would sit there and then and two days later, and the next form came through, they’d oh, I need to. So they pick that up. So there’s a handful of customers, we’re not necessarily getting the service that the organization had put in place as a process. But if you then think about, okay, how does a return on etailer handle that it’s almost instantaneous. So that creates a paradox and then expectation, where people think they’re going to get a refund almost instantly. And in this case, it was taking up to six or seven days just to get to the point of processing it. And then you were falling foul of the banking system where yes, the refund has been pushed through. But the bank could take up to 16 days to then show that in your balance. Because again, it’s just systems clogging up going slowly. So obviously, the project I worked on was to resolve that and to and to enable the agent to make that decision and process it incidentally, we we changed the banking process and the provider, which meant we could instantaneously push things through and then it reduced to between three and five days for that banking process to update. But then it was just the fact that that process existed in the first place because it it had started probably 15 years ago as a process. And it seemed to work. So they didn’t seem any pressure to fix something that wasn’t broken. But the reality is it was just not relevant anymore because the world had moved on. People expected their refunds to be delivered very quickly, because everyone else can so there was this seems to be a well, why can’t new approach to that? And yeah, for me, it was it was really understanding what the customer need was. And then looking at, okay, how do we improve what we’re doing internally to deliver a solution that would enable us to be portly in the same ballpark as an Amazon over for example.

Gregorio Uglioni
I thank you, Nick, I think this is a great example that it’s showing also the complexity throughout the internal processes to get to get the refund. And at the end what you said everybody’s working for the customer or to the accountant not doing or doing the refund. You are sharing a lot of ideas and these five voices customer employees, services process and market At the realities, companies are already overwhelmed with the voice of the customer to get this right and to agree, what are their priorities and so on. And therefore, we all understand that it’s important to to get all this view this holistic view on customer needs. But where can companies start to get all this this stuff together?

Nick Lygo-Baker
Many companies have spent more time focusing on collecting data than actually interpreting it and understanding what to do with it. And again, that’s where the more up to date software in terms of collecting the information in first place is really helpful. Because it buys you the time to then spend thinking about well, what does this mean? So what and how do we then interpret that so going back to that example I was talking about, it effectively meant creating a steering group with stakeholders from every department, and building those customer journeys as they were not as we wanted them to be, because it’s very easy to go into solution mode. And just watching the light bulbs come on around the room where people knew what their role was, and their their section and how that worked. They had no idea what impact their role had on the next person’s process. So by just joining those dots, we all of a sudden, the business became much more aware of what they were doing, what their contribution was, and and potentially, what was required to fix some of the elements that we were discovering as being challenges. So that that was the start point. So it was journey mapping to an extent. But it was journey mapping to the existing processes, and understanding what that what impact that had from a customer level, we could then use the voice of customer to overlay that and say, okay, where we think there’s a pinch point, what type Yeah, how important is it? Is it a bit of a frustration? Or is it something that fundamentally we have to fix now, because if we don’t, we’re gonna lose or keep hemorrhaging customers. So that was the starting point and the catalyst, and then it became okay, we understand what our problems are now, what do we want our customer strategy to be? And there wasn’t a customer strategy, there was a business strategy, there was an operational strategy, it was a marketing plan, there was a very detailed social media plan, because that was where sales were shifting towards, I think about 80% of, of sales are starting to become digital. So it was about then teasing out which of all of these plans and objectives and strategies do we have, that have a customer element in it, and some of them did, but it wasn’t really called out, it wasn’t identified as a customer element. It was just we knew that the outcome would be broadly speaking, but relevant to our customers. So that then would be done was another sort of educational process to say, Okay, let’s pull all of those elements out and create a customer strategy. I’m sure you’ve heard this before, it’s creating that Northstar, that goal that we must all aim for, and then sharing that across all of the different business leaders to start to get everybody focusing on that end game. And by doing that, we started to create that prioritization list of what needed to be done, we could evaluate if new technology needed to come in. Is that a quick job? Is it a long process? Is it a full integration piece? And how old and quite rightly, how are we going to use that information to then drive action and improve the organization’s ability to deliver to our customer outcomes?

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much, Nick, I would have to under traditional questions, but the second half of this game is coming to an end. And therefore I still have one question in a regular time. In 10 years from now, we are back on the CX goalkeeper podcast and what we’re discussing about

Nick Lygo-Baker
as a great question, I think it’s going to be the level of interaction that we starting, that we’re starting to have with with AI. I think we’re just at the beginning. We’ve started with bots in customer service and as a means of kind of triaging customers as they come through that frequently asked questions, please self serve, because we don’t want to spend much money dealing with simple things like what time do you open and you know, Can I can I bring my pet into store those types of things? The reality is, I think the way in which the technology is going to evolve is that the conversation will go two ways it will be either driven by smart tech, so you’ll be adding things to a shopping list and that and automatically process in which case the the human to human side is irrelevant is a transaction which we can just see happen and manifest itself through through process. But what that will do is is also mean that when we do have customers in crisis, and we need a human to human contact, that there’ll be much more value placed on that level of interaction between humans than they perhaps is now, because all of a sudden, we’ve stripped out the mundane, boring, easy to easy to solve problems, which we can automate. And the things that are much more important are going to have to be dealt with by a person, and they’re going to have to be much more skills, they will need to be more educated. And they’ll have to be able to help customers in a way now, which is quite difficult, because you have specialists in different things, we’re going to have to start seeing people who are skilled across the board. So a contact center agent for me is going to become a more highly skilled job. And that I would expect to be manifesting itself in a, perhaps a more highly prized role, because I think people see that the churn and the attrition of contact center staff has a problem. Because the environment is not not great. You’re you’re dealing with complaints. So I think that will be a big change, I think the contact center role will become more important. And the way I described it, in the example of the food delivery business I was talking about is you trust a store manager with a million panel business to make decisions, and you pay them the same as a contact center agent, and you don’t trust them to make the same decisions. Why not. And just as capable, let’s make sure that we hire the right people into the contact center to make those decisions. Because ultimately, a customer sees he was one brand, they don’t see you as multiple different departments and different companies, which that’s not how it’s, it’s projected. So that one brand view has to be met with one brand standard. And that has to be consistent for people to know that you’re delivering on their brand promise.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. I think on this side, what you’re saying is the human to human contact will be more and more important and also difficult. But it will be also interesting to see when to machine, the one from the from the company and our AI will interact together. And our will our than AI provide feedback voice of the customer to the other machine. Joke aside?

Nick Lygo-Baker
Well, I think it’s a reality, I think we’re starting to see it and the frustration that people have had with, with customer service bots, is disappearing, because the bots and the technology getting better it’s learning and ultimately, it’s what it’s designed to do. So there will always be that gap. Because effectively at the moment, we’re still telling him telling a machine what to expect. And sometimes what comes through isn’t exactly isn’t hasn’t been programmed, so it falls between the cracks. And then we need to recover that through the human. But the better it gets, the more likely we are to have, again, we’ve seen with smart tech and smart speakers, the tech side will start to pick up the delivery of the requests, not just the human into a machine. And machine to machine is very transactional, very easy to deliver. And on the flip side, the human human side is going to be as you say, much more important, but there will be investment required in both. The technology has to be there to support both of those channels, and the ability for agents to be able to have that autonomy is going to be critical for them to be able to deliver so it keeps coming back to how do we enable our employees to deliver on our brand promise to our customers and meet that outcome.

Gregorio Uglioni
The only thing that I can say is thank you very much for your time, Nick, we are coming to the end, we are in the extra time. We still have three minutes. And I have three questions for you. Is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience because it helps you during your career or during your private life?

Nick Lygo-Baker
Yeah, I think one of the books that took me a while to get into was was Daniel Kahneman Thinking Fast and Slow. It’s but once you start to go through it, and you start to look at people’s intuitive response versus considered response, it starts to help digest situations. And for me personally, I do on the back of that I always take a moment and pause before I then think because I just want to make sure that my initial gut feel is actually the the response I want to give. And that helps when it comes to managing conflicts. Because sometimes your initial reaction can always be wrong, because you might have misheard something I understood it. So it just gives me time to pause, reflect and ask a question before giving a tree response.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And if people would like to contact you what’s the best way?

Nick Lygo-Baker
Best way is through LinkedIn! I am the only like, open there Nick Lygo-Baker on there as far as I know. So. But yes, yeah, that’s the quickest and easiest way to get ahold of me.

Gregorio Uglioni
And you will find the contact details in the show notes. And the last question is Nick’s golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you would leave The audience.

Nick Lygo-Baker
Yeah, I suppose after years of customer market research, the the key for me is insight without data is just opinion. So be wary of making decisions on insight that is just driven by one or two comments. data has to be there to, to underpin it and support it.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much, Nick. It was really a great pleasure to have you on the CX goalkeeper podcast, please stay with me and to the audience. I hope that it was that you enjoyed this discussion. It was for me really interesting to get some insight of this on these five voices. We discussed about listening to the whole picture. And if you have any feedback, please feel free to contact nick or to contact myself. And if you have time, please stop by on Apple podcast and write a short review. It tells me and it helps us to continue this podcast. Thank you very much. Bye bye.

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