Discussing Empathy in Action with Dr. Natalie Petouhoff – E125

Episode released on: 08. May 2023

Discussing Empathy in Action with Dr. Natalie Petouhoff Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Dr. Natalie Petouhoff

LinkedIn Headline: WSJ Best Selling Author, Speaker, Board Member, Expert In Residence, Strategist in AI, CX and EX

00:00 Game Start
00:58 Natalie’s introduction and values
04:17 Definition of Empathy
08:28 Empathy in Action equation
14:07 5th Industrial Revolution
18:26 Customers and Employees are not on the balance sheet
21:27 Applying Empathy In Action
23:52 Getting a Common Understanding
29:08 Where to start
31:20 Measuring progress
34:42 The Future Question
36:51 Contact Details
37:59 Natalie’s Golden Nugget
and much more

Natalie’s book – Empathy In Action – is available on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1646870433/

Natalie’s Contact Details:

Natalie’s Golden Nuggets:

  • Becoming an empathy practitioner can truly change your life. Whether you apply empathy in your interactions with family members, romantic partners, or colleagues at work, this skill of genuinely listening to others can have a profound impact. I’ve experienced personal transformations myself, and even after writing a book on the subject, I continue to learn and grow every single day. I wholeheartedly encourage you to embrace empathy and become an empathy practitioner. It’s a journey that will enrich your life in countless ways.

Becoming an empathy practitioner can truly change your life. Whether you apply empathy in your interactions with family members or colleagues at work, this skill of genuinely listening to others can have a profound impact. Natalie Petouhoff on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

picture from https://www.drnatalienews.com/blog/10-awards-for-empathy-in-action

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

What did we discuss?

Gregorio Uglioni
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation, and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I am sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast tonight I’m really super thrilled because I’ve one of the authors of empathy in action. Hi Natalie, how are you?

Natalie Petouhoff
I’m great. Thank you, Greg,

Gregorio Uglioni
thank you very much for joining my podcast and to our audience. Now, you know, Natalie, Petouhoff is together with me. And it’s really, I am saying thank you very much for your time. It’s really great to have you on my podcast.

Natalie Petouhoff
Thank you, I’m thrilled to be here.

Gregorio Uglioni
Perfect. Before we start deep diving in your book, and for the people watching this video, you see the nice cover in the in the background of Natalie. We would like to learn more about you. And therefore not only could you please shortly introduce yourself.

Natalie Petouhoff
Sure, I’m someone who’s very passionate about thinking about other people’s feelings and needs. And I think that’s really the origination of the book and the topic. One of the values that really drives me in life is authentic, genuine communication. And I think what I really learned as I was writing this book is the value of empathy. So you start out with a topic, you think you really know it. And it’s not until you actually get into it, and you start to digest it, and then you practice it, you know, becoming an empathy practitioner is very different than writing applied theory. And so I’ll tell you a short story. So I had a friend who had gone to a concert got pushed down, his face got cracked open, and it was like 230 in the morning, and he called me and he said, Do you have any superglue? I said, stop calling me for superglue. And he showed he did FaceTime. He showed me the space and I said, Okay, I really think you need liquid bandage. And it goes no, no, no, I want I want super glue. So I’d rummage through my drawers, I can’t find it. I go to the grocery, I’d go to the drugstore. And I’m standing there with a tube of superglue and a tube of liquid bandage in my hand. And I and my gut is saying buy what he asked for. But my brain the part that thinks I’m right, is thinking by limpid bandage. So I compromised. And I bought both, so I delivered them. And a couple days later, he knocks on my door. And then he had had to shave off his eyebrow because he had put the superglue on and it wasn’t a good choice. And he said, Now I want to thank you for your generosity. And but mostly because you didn’t do what you thought was right. You actually heard me I felt acknowledged and seen. And even though you were right. Superglue was not the right answer. He said, You sat in my shoes, you heard me and you delivered what I asked for. And so that’s, you know, one of the many, many stories that when you actually start to practice empathy, and you sit in the other person’s shoes, and you understand what they want and need and then deliver it even though you’re you know, logic brain is saying, I know the answer. It, it has a profound effect on the friendship and the relationship. And so what I learned through that experience was how many times as leaders and managers do we do what we think is right from our point of view, versus the customer, or the employee. And it’s almost 100% Because we think we know. So empathy is one of my my big values.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you for for this great story. And now we understand better why you’ve wrote such a book, empathy in action. And please dear audience Take the time to buy this book and to read this book because it’s really full of insight. And now we are going to unpack them together with Natalie. Let’s, let’s start you, you’re saying you’re using the word empathy, perhaps to really kick off the discussion, what’s your definition and also in particular in the customer experience customer service field.

Natalie Petouhoff
So it’s interesting because a lot of people will pick up the book. One, they think they’re already doing it. I can tell you, you It 99% of people are not right. And you look at the number of layoffs, you look at the the how many companies are not meeting their revenue goals. It’s because they’re not employing this new business model, empathy as a business concept. So people think it’s sympathy, right? And they think I’m building a kumbaya factory. And sympathy is really hearing what someone says and saying, I’m so sorry, that happened. Right? And then it’s usually from our own perspective, it’s a feeling of compassion, or maybe pity. And empathy is the practice of sitting in the seat of someone else, seeing their point of view and then acting in a new way, right? And what I find is almost sometimes you are being empathetic, but oftentimes, especially in business, we’re acting from where we think is right. And so in terms of customer employee experience, think about it. So for instance, when a customer interacts with an SMS bot, right, for chatbot, do they want the interaction to be long? Do they want to have to repeat themselves? Now? If it gets transferred to an agent, does the agent want to have to listen to the long story? No, but the way that we’ve set up customer and employee experience, that’s exactly what happens. And so what’s fascinating is, when you look at the experience from the employee and the customer’s point of view, they want it short, they want it easy, they want to get it done, they want to move on. So they want, like when you look at average handle time, or first contact resolution, that’s what the employee and the customer want. But it’s also what the company wants. And later on, we’ll talk a little bit about what we’re doing at DoorDash. But basically, we’ve taken our chat sessions from 10, to 15 minutes to five. Because we’re employing empathy, we’re actually sitting in the seat of the customer, and the employee, and we’re reconfiguring how we deliver those experience, some of its technology, some of its process, some of its just looking at it from a different point of view. So for me, the definition of empathy is really looking at those experiences, from the customer’s point of view. And when you do that, you also meet the business goals, and you actually reduce your, your, your costs, and you increase your revenue. It’s not, it’s one of those things, and you probably get it, but it’s not one of those things. It’s very obvious to many people. Because people think all you want me to spend more money, I’m like, No, I want you to spend less money. I want I want you not to spend any money on our tuition. For agents, I want you to get your customers in and out very quickly. I want your customers to be so happy with the experience that they return. And they tell others right in the way that we’re doing experiences now, where self service ends up in a dead end. And agent interactions are very long and take a lot of questions and it’s fine. It’s not a satisfying experience for me back and across the company.

Gregorio Uglioni
Exactly. I think that’s one one big example you are using now and the example from the USA, but they are facing this similar experience in Europe, we are always speaking about being customer centric, focusing on the customer focusing on the employees preaching about that. But then when discussed with customer centers, they’re always measuring or only our speed of answer our handling time. And they are not really focusing on the real transformation that now technology can do. It’s simplifying processes, improving processes, and then going to automation so that you have less time for discussion. And the remaining time that you gain, you can reinvest to create value for the customer and being empathetic with with teams based on that you shared and it’s really super interesting because I’m not often I see in customer experience book or employee experience related books, also some mathematics equation and you have a nice equation is the empathy in action equation. Could you please share a bit about that?

Natalie Petouhoff
Social sell the business centric equation is business centric efficiency, business centric effectiveness, and that gives you a certain value. Right. And so that’s when, you know, I used to be a Forrester analyst. So the things that we talked about were, you know, reducing average speed of answer or reducing average call time iron ore, increasing first contact resolution, but we were doing it by employing business centric logic, what’s best for the business. And oftentimes, especially up until now, where we are in this new industrial revolution with technology, oftentimes, that thinking and the technology and the way it got deployed, would decrease the average, you know, the increase the efficiency and effectiveness, but it would do so at the end, it would compromise the experience. So the empathy equation is really about looking at efficiency, and effectiveness from a customer’s point of view. And when you do that, you also gain the value to the business, but you gain additional value. So the efficiency would be did I get my question answered quickly? Right? So if you if you have a dumb bot, that asks, Who are you? Where have you been? What do you need, and then it gives you a bunch of canned answers, or even some AI answers, but they never quite hit what you want, then that’s not a very efficient process. And then the person figures out, okay, I’m just gonna get transferred to an agent. So now you paid for self service technology that ended up in a dead end, it gets transferred to the agent, now the agent that they don’t have customer journey analytics, right, and they have no knowledge of where the customer has been or what they’ve been doing. And that doesn’t get transferred to the agent desktop, then what happens is the customer service agent has to say, maybe they know who you are, right? Because maybe the Annie identified that. But what have you been doing? How can I help you, and then the customer has to go into this long story, right. And that’s the way that the technology has been set up, up until now. And so that’s why average handle time is high. That’s why agent stress is so high, because they have to ask the same frequent questions over and over. And I like I don’t, I don’t know how they do their job. I give them so much credit, because I couldn’t do that job. So what if he you transferred all that information about the customers interaction? Maybe they were on a website, they were looking at paint, they have something on their shopping cart, you see them migrate over to the FAQs? And then they want to chat, right? That chat bot should be able to answer the question. Or if they need more help, or it needs to be transferred to an agent, that agent agent should have all that information pop to the desktop. And they should say, Hi net, I see you’re looking at paint, you have this in your shopping cart? Is this what you have a question about? Right? Get to the answer. And so when you do that, now you’re getting the customer where they need right away, right, and maybe you can upsell or cross sell them, because you know something about them. And you can add value. And it’s not just a generic blue light, special, like everybody gets the same upsell, right, but you’re actually understanding that person, and what they need and what they want. And then the agent isn’t so tired, they’re not hating their job. Right. So now you have a happy customer who got what they needed, who’s going to buy more who’s going to tell all their friends, there’s customer lifetime value, there’s your loyalty, there’s your trust, there’s your revenue. And then for the for the agent, they’re not bored with their job, they feel satisfied, they feel that they’ve given somebody help, because that’s what they’re there to do. That is their job. And they’re not frustrated by it. So now we’re lowering your attrition. So the equation really represents the old way about thinking about business from a business centric point of view, versus the customer and the employee centric point of view. And when you do that, then that’s when you’re going to get the exponential value out of your technology and your people

Gregorio Uglioni
related to empathy. And I think that’s, that’s really super interesting, because you’re sharing, you’re sharing a lot of nuggets. And one thing that you mentioned is technology until now, and I know that in the book, you are fearing the fifth Industrial Revolution. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Natalie Petouhoff
So what I did, I like history. And I’d like to go back and look at where we’ve been. And if there’s a couple of charts in the book, and one is it is that it shows the productivity and the capabilities of technology going up exponentially, right. And so when you look all the way back from the beginning when our first tools were like fire and stone and wheels like basics, right to where we are today with semiconductors and computers, and now AI, right? All the different technologies, you see an exponential change in the capabilities. And so the link really is, when you look back at the first industrial revolution, you see very, very basic tools, right? That allowed us to make steel and buildings and glass and build skyscrapers. And so, cars, Boeing, Ford, all those inventors who did really amazing things. Now you look at where we are today. For the first time in history, we now have technology that can be focused on human need, and to be focused on providing what people need, what is the customer need, what is the employee need. And so the now what can happen is, is back in the early 1800s, or earlier in Europe, when you look at the first industrial revolution, everything was focused on business centric efficiency, right, reducing costs, increasing productivity, and a lot of wealth for those particular business owners, today, we can start to think about not only providing great products, but also great services, great experiences, right? And so when you look at the evolution of human beings and what they want, and they need, right, needs were different back then they’re they’re very mean, customers make decisions about buying from a company based on one experience. So if we are now whether you are selling pencils, or cars, or cell phones, you are in the experience business. And so whatever that experience is, not only with the product itself, right, someone buys it, they use it, say it’s a pencil and you go to erase an eraser after you race a little bit, it falls off, and then the lead doesn’t stay sharp. Are you ever gonna buy that pencil? Again? No, you’re gonna buy somebody else’s pencil, right? And then when you try to ask a question, get service, do a return. If that’s a horrible experience. Are you going to go back there again? No. So we, I think that that’s one of the enrollment, your questions was What is experienced as a service? Right? We are in an experience economy. And then I also have Joe pines book up here, because he’s really, I would say, the the godfather of the experience economy. And companies really need to think about that. And now we have, technology has different capabilities. And we need to apply that with a new mindset. Because if we take the old mindset, and we take the new technologies and apply it in the same way, we’re probably not going to get that exponential return. But if we actually change our mindset and go, Okay, when I design my technology, right, all the vendors who are designing technology, or as a business, when I implement the technology, now I’m going to change my mindset. And the mindset is, how can I make this wildly successful, and a great experience for my customers, and for my employees, and when you do that, what you’re gonna find is, that’s where you’re gonna get your business results. And that’s why everybody’s stuck right now.

Gregorio Uglioni
I think what you’re saying is, it’s extremely interesting. And you’re saying to transform and going to this transformation. I know from older keynotes that you were giving another podcast where you are discussing on, you shall know something extremely interesting that in reality, customers and employees are not on the balance sheet, but without customer and without employees. There is no value to be written into, into the balance sheet of, of companies. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Natalie Petouhoff
Why that fascinating, because when we started down this path, I had to ask myself, how come customer experience and employee experience is still a topic that most of us who are in this field, are constantly trying to pitch up to the CXO? Office? Right? Why is it so hard for people to actually understand the value? So I isolated those the employees and customers and I said, are they on the balance sheet? It doesn’t. So when you think about assets and accompany you have buildings, you have software, you have technology, you have all these things, and they’re accounted for on the balance sheet. But the two critical components in a business are customers and employees because without employees, there’s no one to create products and services. And without customers. There’s no one to buy them. And so essentially without these two assets You do not have a business. And yet, we don’t make them a priority. And so part of the soapbox, in my mind is to try and say, Look, this is old thinking, we really have to think about them. You can’t think, Oh, well, you know, there used to be the saying about, well, if you don’t want your job, then there’s 100 People lined up outside the door, that will take it, or we could just get more customers. Right, and we’re reaching a point in time, where that those old sayings and those old thought patterns are no longer true. Because customers have choices with the advent of the internet, the advent of online shopping with the advent of online reviews, if you’re not a good actor, right, you’re not doing good business. Everybody knows, and everybody tells everybody else. And at some point, it’s going to catch up with you. So why not start now? I mean, and that’s what I’m so excited about DoorDash. And my other customers, is they and not everybody, like there’s it’s kind of like Geoffrey Moore’s technology adoption curve, it’s the empathy adoption curve. There are some companies that read this, and get it and like, now come and help us like, we want to do this right away, and others are like, Oh, we’re doing it, and others are like, Nah, still doesn’t matter. So it’s, it’s fascinating being an observer of all of this.

Gregorio Uglioni
I think what you’re saying it’s really interesting. And you’re sharing also that the first customer already trying to implement it, what what it’s, what’s the experience with them? What what are their question to start and kickoff?

Natalie Petouhoff
So what’s interesting is David, and I did not know each other. He bought the book a year ago, when it first came out, he read it. And he was like, Oh, my gosh, this is it. Like for any CX person. This is everything that I’ve been thinking about, compiled in one book. And I was like, that’s very proud. But that’s, I wanted it to be a one stop shop. Right? I wanted it to be the why. And the what now I’m working on Book Two, which is the how, right. And so part of what I’m doing with with DoorDash. So David, read the book started to think about it. And he’s, he’s already been working on implementing this for about eight months. And they have great results, but they feel like they’ve done as much as they can. And when I started to go through, and I said, okay, and I actually went down to South San Salvador to one of his contact centers, I said, they but what we want to do is we want to look at the framework. So the framework for implementing empathy is to look at culture, to look at leadership, to look at metrics, and your financial business model, and the technology. And he’s like, wow, we only did a little bit. And some of them we didn’t touch at all, because we didn’t know what we didn’t know what we didn’t have the skills, right. So now what I’m putting together for brands is kind of a framework to really go deeper than what the book currently does. And to help them understand how do you do this. So it’s a little bit of assessing where you are currently, and understanding and those four categories that have like a whole bunch of dropdowns underneath each one, and then understanding where you are today, what’s possible, and we don’t even know what’s going to be possible in the future, right? So those are going to be our stretch goals. And as I help companies implement this, what I’m learning, okay, this is, this is what they read, this is what they understood, this is where they’re at. And now here’s how I can help them go to the next level, and really realize these savings and increase in revenue.

Gregorio Uglioni
It’s super interesting. And I know I’m going off script, but sometimes good contact center agents are going off script. And you mentioned something that I think it’s really interesting. Everybody reads your book from the beginning to the end, because it’s really super interesting. And then everybody has a bit a different understanding or wants to set some point you’re on and that how can you ensure that you and your customer, you have the same understanding of empathy In action?

Natalie Petouhoff
So part of what we’ve been doing is actually reading the book together. So the team will read a chapter. And then we’ll have discussion groups. And when people actually verbalize their thoughts, then it’s not like anybody’s wrong. There’s no wrong here, right. But it’s interesting because when you think about it writes a book about empathy. When you think about it, each person is putting themselves and I as an author, I have to put myself in their shoes. Listen to what they’re saying, because they’re reading it and interpreting it from their point of view. Right, and sometimes they come up The stuff I didn’t think about, right? And that’s, that’s the value of teams and diversity, right? Is that and including other people in this process, because they come up with things. I’m like, wow, that’s really good. Let’s do that. Right. So it’s really fun for me, because I’m learning with them. I also think that part of it, it is doing the assessment. So saying, and the assessment that I have built, will change over time. Because as I learn more, and how people are actually trying to implement this in a corporate environment, and assessing, you know, in detail all those things, you see how they interpret it, and you also see where they’re at. Right? I mean, one of the things everybody pretty much misses is organizational change. Right. And so there’s kickback, and I don’t know, why are we doing this? And, you know, oh, initiative de jour, right? And so I learned a long time ago, when I was a management consultant, that you have to do some org change, otherwise, you get a lot of resistance. And the resistance is what what increases the time to go. Right. So why would why would you leave that out. But a lot of people don’t have that background. They don’t know how to assess where the attitudes and mindsets are. And then how do you move people on some of its training, really just getting getting the definition of empathy versus sympathy? Having people really understand, because they think it’s an HR book. Right? So they think it’s about just the people part. And so getting them to understand that a lot of what we want to do can be done with technology at scale. So really having people understand, yes, culture is really important. Hiring, onboarding, training, rewarding incentives, really important leadership, having leaders be able to speak about this having them having a talk track that they believe in, right, that they can say with conviction. And it’s not just something that they’re saying, really looking at that financial business metrics, what are we measuring in a contact center? And why it doesn’t make sense? And from whose perspective, and then technology, right, so technology is a really big part of this, whether it’s, you know, using assessments to be able to hire people, or, you know, the different pieces of HR, right, but there’s a much bigger component in the actual customer and employee experience. So looking at all the C cast vendors, looking at all the experience vendors looking at all the CRM vendors. So part of it is assessing technology, and determining does that technology really help the customer and the employee get what they need, in the moment real time? Or is it somehow hindering that and I think that you can only see that in comparison. And in retrospect, because up until now, whatever we had was the best that we could do. But now when you compare it to what could be happening? Now you go, Oh, I see there’s the gap. And so now I’m working with vendors who are really transforming their products, right. So part of this is a partnership, part of this is the business and the business organization. Part of it is to really scale this and to take it to the future, you know, 100 years or 200 years, or hopefully, this never stops. Because empathy is just make sense. Helping vendors really understand how their product itself is hindering a great experience. And most of them don’t think that they are, right. And it’s only when I say, Well, does this happen? Does this happen? You are a customer when you experience this? How does that make you feel? Oh, it’s horrible. Okay, so your product does that, though. So how can we help you get your product not to do that?

Gregorio Uglioni
It’s extremely interesting. And there are a lot of topics that that you’re touching, if I understand well, and please correct me, if companies want to implement empathy in action, it used to just to start with an assessment. And basically, after the assessment with all the different dropdowns, you have an outcome, the question that I would have, your suggestion is to start where the biggest, biggest pain points are, or to double down on the strengths that they already have to differentiate in the market. What’s your view and what are you suggesting to your customers?

Natalie Petouhoff
It kind of depends on what their goals are. Right? And it also depends on their appetite. So as a consultant, you always want to start with the customers. Employee empathy, right? So where are they most excited? Where can they see the value? Right? So I might Uh, you know, I would, in a perfect world, I want them to attack everything. Well, having been in corporate America for a very long time, an organization can only digest so much. So, you know, there’s someone who’s really passionate about culture are really passionate about getting their leaders trained. I mean, they often asked me, Where do we start? Right? And so it kind of depends, did you try it? Have you started this on your own? And where are you in that process? And then where do you see the low hanging opportunities, right? What’s going to be easiest for your organization to adopt? And then let’s start there and have some successes. So how I’ve had success before, is picking places where people are excited, it’s possible to have success, so that you can build on that success. And the people go, Hey, what are they doing over there? That looks really interesting. I want to do that too. Right? And then you build on that and you build the excitement and people. People are, you know, that they feel their own excitement. At that point. It’s not just me kind of pushing new ideas and saying, it’s more of a poll. It’s like, well, now what can we do here? What can we do here? And what about this, and I want you to talk to these people over here. And so you want to create a pull versus push?

Gregorio Uglioni
I think that’s always extremely important in organizational change management, to pull and not to push. And I think why companies are then progressing implementing this empathy in action? How can you measure the progress? And to add and complete the question, how can you measure empathy?

Natalie Petouhoff
So the measurement of empathy is the degree to which you’re doing things that get the customer what they need, so we’ll just focus on the customer for a second. So when when I’m working with DoorDash, one of the things was what David termed flower early flower lay language. So when someone calls and says, Hey, you forgot my eggs, the typical response from the agent would be, oh, bow, we forgot your eggs, we’re so sorry. Breakfast is a very important part of our meal. You know, that that must be really frustrating and going on and on. So what we discovered was that when a customer says something, like you forgot my eggs, or I didn’t get my drink, or or my stuff is cold, or whatever it is, right. And, and it doesn’t matter. Like it doesn’t just apply to DoorDash, it deploys to any company because a customer calls and says, I need help. I have a question. This didn’t work out, right? So instead of, let’s say, a customer calls, and to them in that moment, they’re saying the house is on fire. So would you say, Oh, I’m so sorry that your house is on fire, that must be really frustrating. Having a house that’s on fire is really important to your lifestyle. Like, the customer would want to strangle you right to the phone or to the computer. So when a customer says the house is on fire, showing empathy and measuring, whether you’re delivering empathy is the way that you respond. And the way that you would respond is I’ll get the hose. So in part of measuring that is looking at the length of the chat, or the call. Because when you go through all that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it makes the interaction longer, makes the customer frustrated, they don’t leave a good recommendation. Right. But if you give the customer what they need, you’re reducing that chat time, you’re reducing the frustration, and you’re getting the person what they need. So part of what David and team have done is to look at their interactions and create a matrix to be able to evaluate in the interaction, are we delivering empathy, right, and they have their own particular formulation of how they evaluate those interactions. And then, based on that, so they work with the agents, and they help the agent understand, here’s what empathy does not look like. And here’s what empathy looks like. And so, one, you can start to look at the number of interactions that show empathy and don’t based on the set of criteria, and then what you see when you deploy empathy is the average handle time and first contact resolution goes up.

Gregorio Uglioni
And this is something that all the companies are looking for, because this drive also efficiency. And the big question, does companies want to invest the time for creating value or keep only the cost reduction with the decrease of everything what what you share or earlier, taking care also of the time and we and ensuring that we keep the discussion, I still have one question. And it’s about the future, let’s say in 10 years from now we are back on the CX goalkeeper podcast, I hope that you will be back earlier. But in these cases in 10 years from now, what we are discussing about

Natalie Petouhoff
I think we’ll be discussing about how we’re applying the latest technology. So right now, it’s chat. GBT, right, and AI. And that’s like the whole conversation. I think that technology is going to continue to expand, it’s going to continue to change. And what I’m hoping the goal of this book was to not separate technology from business, but to actually bring it in the business together. And so my goal is that every company gets excited about empathy, because it’s the right thing to do by their customers and employees. Maybe we won’t have another great resignation, or a quiet quit, right? Like all these divisive things that employees are doing, because their experience at work is not good, right? And then the response of companies is to lay everybody off. Right? And so I’m hoping that leadership becomes skilled in the science of empathy, and the implementation as a new business concept. And that it won’t be me trying to convince people, but rather a poll where people are like, Oh, my God, I want to learn about this. And like, they just naturally are implementing this. So right now, there’s a handful of companies that are I’m talking to and, and helping but I hope that that extends to every single company on the planet.

Gregorio Uglioni
And I suggest to a lot of companies to be enough smart to approach you now that you have time to explain that because later, it could be a bit difficult, because that’s the way to go. It’s we are in a human business. And empathy is one of the most important values that we have. And we care about because we need to care about people. We are coming to an end of this game of this discussion in the extra time, I still have two questions for you. What’s the best way to find you?

Natalie Petouhoff
You can find me on LinkedIn Dr. Natalie Petouhoff. Or my website, Dr. Natalie news. And yeah, just by me, if you want more information, or information on how to get the book, the book is on Amazon. The audio book is coming out soon. It’s been all recorded, I actually recorded my own intro. So that was very fun. And yeah, the audio book, it’s up to Amazon when they put it up so that you can find it in any any bookstore.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And dear audience, you will find also the information in the show notes with including all the links to find this outstanding book that I really suggest empathy inaction, it’s an outstanding work. Thank you very much, Natalie, for your time. Before we conclude, one last question is Natalie’s golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new, that you would leave to the audience.

Natalie Petouhoff
Become an empathy practitioner, it will change your life, whether you use empathy, that skill of really listening to the other person, whether it’s a family member, boyfriend, a girlfriend, someone you’re in a relationship with at work, it will literally transform your life. I’ve had personal transformations. And like, you write the book, so you think you know, and every single day I see something and learn something new. So I encourage you to become an empathy practitioner.

Gregorio Uglioni
That’s something that I love because we are not learning about business, but we are learning also something for our personal life. This is the conclusion of the podcast. Natalie, please state stay with me, dear audience. I hope that you enjoyed this discussion as much as I did. If you didn’t do it during the podcast, please now go to Amazon, buy the book. It’s really worth it. And take the time to read it, understand it and contact Natalie for any question. Thank you very much and have a nice evening. Bye bye. If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. You’re in a human to human environment. Thank you

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