Brand Experience with Deirdre Martin – E103

Episode released on: 05. December 2022

Brand Experience with Deirdre Martin Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Deirdre Martin

LinkedIn Headline: Website & Marketing Strategies that actually work | Clarify your brand’s message | StoryBrand Certified Guide | Customer Experience Coach/Trainer | EQ Certified | Sales & Performance Coach| Best-Selling Author

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:33 Deirdre’s introduction
  • 01:21 Deirdre’s values
  • 03:04 Banding definition
  • 07:13 Why is branding so important?
  • 12:24 Preferred examples
  • 19:24 Where to start
  • 21:34 what was the impact of COVID-19 to branding?
  • 24:04 which are the biggest mistakes that companies are doing in relation to branding
  • 26:23 In 10 years time from now, what we’re discussing about in relation to customer experience
  • 28:52 Deirdre’s book suggestion
  • 30:39 Deirdre’s contact details
  • 31:01 Deirdre’s golden nugget

and much more

Deirdre’s Contact Details:

Her book suggestion:

  • Fusion by Denise Lee
  • Branding Gap by Marty Neumeier
  • Zag by Marty Neumeier
  • Onward by Howard Schultz

Deirdre’s Golden Nuggets:

  • I think in terms of brand, you know, think about it as like a guiding star for your business. Something that it’s like the North Star,
  • It should be something that guides you along your journey to achieve your business goals, whilst also differentiating you from your competitors, and making you the thought leader in your industry, not just your website. It’s not just your logo. It’s a feeling. It’s a culture. It’s an experience.

“Brand is like a guiding star for your business (…) it’s not just your website. It’s not just your logo. It’s a feeling. It’s a culture. It’s an experience.” Deirdre Martin on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Gregorio Uglioni
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation, and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I am sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you.

Today. It’s really, really a pleasure because I have Deirdre Martin together with me. Hi, Deirdre. How are you?

Deirdre Martin
Hi, Greg, thanks so much for having me.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you. It’s really a great pleasure from my side, because we are going to discuss about branding. But before we deep dive in the topic that you wrote a lot and you’re spread passionate about it, then we would like to learn a bit more about you. And therefore could you please introduce yourself?

Deirdre Martin
Sure. Well, my name is Deirdre Martin I’m based in Kilkenny in Ireland. I’m a wife, a mom of two and two teenage girls. So things are a bit crazy. My house I have three dogs soon to be four. I have two sitting on the floor here with me right now. So there could be barking, there could be yawning, who knows. And I’m an ex bank villain turned guide. So I’ve explained what I mean by that in a few minutes. Greg,

Gregorio Uglioni
thank you very much for your short introduction. And I think I will find out also some questions for your dogs, therefore they feel involved and engaged in this discussion. And I’m sure that will be quiet. I think we would like also to learn a bit more about you. And therefore I always ask also this question, which values drive you life?

Deirdre Martin
You know, that’s a great question, actually. Because it leads really nicely into what we’re going to talk about today in terms of branding, because values, our personal values often feed into our business values and our career values and whatnot. So that’s a great question. But for me, it’s very much around family, Greg, and, and it’s about helping others succeed by being of service and sharing knowledge. Those are things that are really important to me. And recently, I was doing a bit of reflecting myself in terms of my values for business and how I want to succeed. And part of that was looking at how I how I live and breathe those values that I’ve just mentioned. But doing that with flexibility is an abundance. And I think, you know, living and breathing those values personally, and they’re what drives me in life. It’s also clear, I feel, and I think my clients would say the same that those are evident throughout their experiences with me. And so again, I know we’re going to talk about branding, which I’m really excited about today. But also because, as I said, those personal values that we have can equally drive your business, not just your life.

Gregorio Uglioni
I think what you’re saying totally makes sense, because it’s not only human beings that need to have values, but also Corporation companies. And therefore today, it’s really important to discuss about branding and learn a bit more about branding, together with you a big expert in this topic with a great passion about this topic. And therefore really, let’s kick off the discussion. What’s your definition of branding?

Deirdre Martin
Okay, so I suppose first and foremost, branding is, it’s like a strategy that you can use in your business to help you achieve your business goals. But branding is a culture. It’s how employees experience things in the business behind the scenes. It’s also the feelings and experiences that customers have on the front end when they engage with your business and your brand. And sometimes those feelings internally or externally, customers or employees alike. They’re intentional. Sometimes they happen intentionally. But other times they happen on intentionally. And branding is about being able to create that intentional experience. Because what can happen with a brand is that an often this happens with new businesses starting out is that the director or founder the business is really passionate about what they do. They’re really focused on their customer and getting amazing results for their clients. As their business grows, that gets diluted somewhat, because they’re not always great at articulating those values, the things that are important to them the experiences they want people to have when they engage with the business. And so that doesn’t always grow that that experience and feeling that that founder has doesn’t always grow with the brand. And so, branding is quite broad, you know, you can position your brand as well so that maybe it’s a luxurious brand, or it’s the cheapest brand in your sector industry, it can be the brand that provides the best quality or, you know, maybe it’s the brand, that’s where you experience the fastest service or turnaround time. So, positioning comes into branding. And again, that can be a strategy that you use to help achieve your business goals. But it’s also about the style and the style of your brand. And a lot of people make that mistake. And I suppose I’m gonna demystify that right here, right now, Greg, and say that your brand is not just about the colors that you use on your website, or social media, it’s not just about your logo, the style that helps you portray your brand’s identity, it helps portray your personality, and even the colors that you choose for your website and logo have a deeper meaning. Because if you think about what your customers really want, in terms of the emotions that you want them to experience, if you’re being intentional about it, well, then maybe particular colors are not the right colors to incorporate into your style. So it’s about strategically deciding what your style is going to be to portray your brand identity of personality. And then I suppose finally, to summarize this, because it’s a lot, right branding is huge. It’s also the story. So a lot of people think that marketing is the story. And marketing is the view code that you use to share your story with the world. But your brand has a story itself. And that story is how how you position your brand in terms of the message you’re going to share. So really, then it’s the message being portrayed about your brand that your marketing department or team or yourself if it’s your own business shares about your business. Does that make sense? Greg?

Gregorio Uglioni
I love it. I love it. It’s really incredible. And I think if we if we would be on a LinkedIn life or something like that, we would have a lot of tweetable moments. When you said for example, brand is capture everything what you said about being intentional. And I think this is really key because that is sharing what you are and you did some example being the fastest company and service, you can quite quickly link that with one one brand or the highest quality you say, okay is quality this could be this brand or and that when and I think this this really make it tangible and understandable, are big topics are complicated it is but also that it’s not possible to cop it overnight, like a product or something like that. It’s something that you need to create. And to conclude, my comment is I need you to laugh because I have red and black. And this is also intentional, because these are the colors of my preferred football team. And therefore when I’m watching it myself, I say oh, that’s and it drives good emotion in myself. I know it’s, it sounds stupid, but if the reality, it drives positive emotion, and therefore, I’m passionate about what I’m doing, because it’s helping me and support me remembering you are doing that. Why? And I love it. And exactly with this, why to make it really tangible for all the audience listening to this podcast and what what you’re sharing, why is branding so important?

Deirdre Martin
It’s exactly like you just described right? In terms of those colors and your goalkeeper background. I mean, that is synonymous with your brand. When I see something on social media, you know, if I’m scrolling on LinkedIn, and I see a goal of pitch in the background, I know instantly that Greg, it makes you unique. It’s easily recognizable, and it’s memorable. And that’s what you want people to experience when they engage with you. So if you think about it, like typically, it takes people five to six times before they start to remember you. So that comes back to your style and story how you’re going to show up when you show up, but also in terms of that recognition. And that’s, that’s in terms of marketing and visibility. But equally as important is the reputational aspect of your brand, because Martin Neumayer, who is like the grandfather of branding, and I mean, I could talk about him all the time, and I recommend a few of his books later on. But one of the things in terms of of branding that he says is it’s not what we say it is it’s what they say it is and that’s where you know earlier on a few minutes ago, I referred to creating things intentionally and it’s the same with you know, whether it’s a customer Ernie are a customer experience that you create in your in your business, some people will go and they will create that intentionally. But you need to understand that when you create that journey, what what way people experience that? Because it’s more than a process from a brand, it’s an experience from a customer. And then they go off, and they’re gonna talk to their friends and their family about it. But what are they actually saying to those people, because what they’ll tell those people may be different to what they tell you. And so it’s about really gathering those insights so that you can build the reputation intentionally that you want to have. But branding also has a value, Greg, and I think a lot of people underestimate that. What I mean by the value is that if you look at a balance sheet, and I’m an ex banker, and that’s why I mean, you know, often I was the villain in the story, right? I’m an ex banker, and part of my job was lending millions of euro to different companies, for whatever reason, it might be typically it was to help them grow. And essentially, you know, when you would look at a balance sheet and a set of accounts, there are a brand is an intangible asset. So what do I mean by that? It’s the reputational part that goes with a brand, you just need to think about Starbucks or McDonald’s, for example, the minutes that a Starbucks are a McDonald’s is about to be opened or launched in an area, people instantly know what to expect. They know what the service is going to be like. And it’s all, you know, the experience and expectations are already set. And because of that, because of the prior reputation, what will happen is that it will pretty much automatically, you know, attract customers. And because of that, that has a value. And that’s why those brands are successful. It’s because the experience is the same no matter where in the world. You go for Starbucks for McDonald’s, Zara, IKEA, you name it, there are multiple brands who are like that. So yeah, branding is not to be underestimated. And it definitely has a value that people often forget about.

Gregorio Uglioni
I think what you’re saying it totally makes sense. And also basically why I have my cap on because I was on the last conference, customer experience conference. And at the end, everybody’s a bit different. But everybody looks like similar. And then people came to me and said, You are the CX goalkeeper, and I said yes. And they said, Oh, we saw your cap. And therefore it’s a different way to differentiate myself from the others. Because I could be happily share, again, all the stories about Ritz Carlton, Disney, and all these great example that we have in customer experience. And these are really great companies. But it’s one more of the same. And therefore I tried this way to differentiate myself as a small example. And what you’re saying it totally makes sense. You already started mentioning some examples. What are your preferred example that you often share with your with your customers?

Deirdre Martin
Oh, my gosh, well, there’s two that I always talk about. And that those are Starbucks and IKEA, I always talk about Starbucks, because they personalize your experience every single time you go in. And again, it might feel like you know, they’re a big chain. And you know, it’s not personalized at all. But in fact, they asked you for your coffee order, and they asked you for your name. They call your name when your order is ready. And they’ve written your name on their cup when you collect your order. So three times and less than maybe five minutes in a location where you know, nobody, they have used your name. So they’ve personalized experience. They do it really well. And Starbucks, Howard Schultz, he really influenced my mindset in terms of customer experience, business growth, and all sorts of things. And one of the things he talks about, you know, is hiring people who are better than you before you’re ready. And learning from those people. You need to hire people to take your business to where you want to get to because they’ve been there and done that already. So there’s a lot of things like that, that he does, that he did do when he was in charge of Starbucks. So I have great admiration for him and Starbucks. And IKEA is another one because one of the things that I’m always talking about in branding is that a lot of businesses, particularly service based businesses, because that’s typically who I work with. They find it difficult to portray what a vision of success looks like for a client and because a lot of people they need to know what is the end result going to be if I work with you. I can’t do that so well because if you think about it really, but they have reflect packed furniture in boxes that they could just have in a warehouse with a label on it. But instead, what they do is they create an experience for people so that you walk through at your leisure, you know, various rooms that display this ultimate vision of success. It’s like, this is what you could do, you have this piece of furniture in your home, you know, this is how it might feel if you have the lighting like this. And so they’re really good at portraying that vision of success. But just to touch back on what you spoke about a moment ago with your cap and being recognizable at a conference, what’s interesting about brands as well in terms of being recognizable is that personally, if you’re a personal brand, you too can be recognized, but just like you mentioned, and a way to discover how to be recognized baller, or you know, to kind of find a persona for your brand to fit in with is to look at something like a brand archetype. So for example, I mentioned one of the things that I value is sharing knowledge and information with people. And so my archetype actually is sage, my brand archetype is that of a sage, and other big organizations or like Harvard Business Review, their their sage, Forbes or sage, you know, there’s big brands like that. But equally, people can have a brand archetype. And so Oprah Winfrey and David Attenborough are two that I like, right for my brand. And the reason being is how they portray themselves how they ask questions, so that they can learn and then share information in a particular way. But equally, David Attenborough, he’s open to adventure and explore things. And then he just so succinctly explains how things work. And so those are using the archetype framework for your brand can be very helpful for a business, or an individual to be able to decide, okay, well, this is maybe how we need to show up so we can extract elements of what they do, and model them in our own unique way. But it can help kind of, if you like, set a path, or maybe like a play, if it was on the pitch, Greg, you know, a play format, nearly in terms of what to do with the brand, or how to show up if people are unsure. So there’s, there’s quizzes, you can search on Google brand archetype quiz, take a quiz. And that will help you decide that and, and why I refer to that is because a brand in the business is like a brand and a person. And we all have our own individual brands. And the brand archetype concept is based on young, and Freud, actually, but Freud doesn’t get much of a look. And in the same way that we as individuals have personalities, so do brands. So I mean, there are brands that I regularly talk about, like Starbucks, and IKEA, but each brand business, just like every individual is unique. And one of the things that Martin Neumayer always talks about, and I really love this, and I was only just sharing this with somebody yesterday, actually, who was worried that somebody else might come out with their idea before they would, is to just say to yourself, you know, only I do this, only I do that, and only I do this other thing, right? So no other brand is gonna match you exactly. And if you think about Pepsi, and Coca Cola, for example, you know, they’re very different in lots of different ways. So Coca Cola can say only I have a recipe that is locked in a safe that nobody can access that we have, you know, there’s no patents, trademarks, and all those things. Only I have this red and white, a unique logo that we haven’t changed in 50 years or longer, and only I whatever. And those are the things that make a brand, recognizable, memorable and valuable. So yeah, …

Gregorio Uglioni
it’s really great. And I think what you’re sharing, these are a great example of individual branding and also corporate branding. But let’s say you made it’s quite easy because these are worldwide known brands, and therefore it’s quite easy that they worked throughout their journey, creating this brand. But let’s say a company that is not aware that branding is so important, where should they start or wait? Where can they start? For sure, after contacting you because you will help them but where should they start?

Deirdre Martin
Hey, always comes back to costumers for me, Greg, that’s the first thing I get people to do. when they when I engage with a customer first and we start to work on their brand, I give them market research questions to go and gather qualitative insights from their customers, so that they are really understanding every exactly where their customers are at right now. And, you know, over the last number of years, things have changed drastically for people. And what’s interesting is that a lot of people gather market insights after clients leave. But you know, it’s something that I recommend doing regularly throughout a customer lifecycle. So we should be speaking to people who are not customers yet. And gathering insights from them, we should be speaking to customers who are have just started a journey with this. And then we should be speaking to customers who have left us as well. So there’s three different stages of insights to gather. And I think once you have that information and understand, you know, what’s keeping people up at night, what do they need to solve their problem, and sometimes what they need, and what they want are two very different things. So it’s about understanding those things. And then looking at your brand in terms of okay, well, what do we need to do to position ourselves so that customers come for what they want, because we can sell them what they want. And then we can also give them what they need. And so that could be a way even to upsell and grow your business.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. It’s really great and outstanding, perhaps, also, what you are sharing is something that changed throughout the lifecycle of a company, how they are developing themselves. What’s what was the impact of COVID-19 to branding?

Deirdre Martin
Yeah, I mean, gosh, it was huge vastness, I mean, you just need to look at some of the big brands have already mentioned, like Starbucks, or McDonald’s, you know, they had to change everything in terms of the journeys that they created, because there were new things introduced like sanitizing our masks, and then other locations had to physically close. But there’s also the impact of brands where there were service based, and then they had remote workers, and that impacted delivery of service. So I think that has been huge. From a from a people perspective, I think that’s where the biggest shift has been Greg, and managing both customers and employees to be to support them in the way that they need. That has been where the biggest change has come. Because I think, you know, a lot of employees as well got to the stage where they wanted to work from home, they were reluctant to come into the office, you know, and that has had an impact on service. But equally, there have been huge challenges, not just from COVID, but in terms of resourcing and almost every industry and sector that I’ve been speaking to. And so service is really, really changed there. So that’s the first thing. The second thing, I think that that’s evolved hugely is an omni channel approach, where a lot of brands were maybe, you know, specifically just in person and didn’t have an online service, or vice versa. And I think that’s changed and evolved quite a lot. And I think that’s good, because people like to have those options. But I suppose the the challenge with that omni channel service, is that the experience needs to be similar from both from both in person and online. So that’s the second thing. And I think, probably the third thing, what was I gonna say about the third thing, I’ve lost my train of thought and the third thing now, so the employees, the omni channel approach? Yeah, I don’t know, the third things gone, Greg.

Gregorio Uglioni
I will leave it to the audience to add their thoughts and their ideas on branding. But basically, you are really an expert in this topic. And we see and we feel the passion that that you have, from your point of view, which are the biggest mistakes that companies are doing in relation to branding.

Deirdre Martin
To know us, oh, my God, that’s that’s a tough one, Greg, because it’s it’s different. I think. One of the major ones that I see like a lot of my clients are three to five years in business. Those are the type of people that I often work with. Some people I’ve worked with have been 30 years in business. One of the main things that they do is that they create a brand when they start their business and they don’t look at it again. Are they believe that their brand is their website and their logo, and that’s it. And so often then, as I say What happens is a company director or founder who starts their business and doesn’t take the time to truly create a personality and identity and a strategy for their brand, that can impact the growth of their business as their team expands, because that message gets diluted, and what a few of the other things are. Let’s imagine for a moment that somebody has started their business, and they’re recruiting people, if they’re not clear themselves on what their brand’s values are, on what their mission purpose vision are, that can impact the business down the road in terms of not hiring the right person in the first place. So when you’re clear on your brand strategy, in that sense, you can incorporate that into your recruitment questions when you’re engaging people. Similarly, in terms of the insights, gathering insights should be a continuous thing. It shouldn’t be just something you do, if you have an idea about starting a business insights are invaluable, acting on them, is even more valuable. So those are probably the things that I would say, are the biggest mistakes companies are making.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And you earlier said that, it always starts with the customer when you’re defining your brand strategy. And therefore now thinking about the customer, we close our eyes, it’s in 10 years time what we’re discussing about in relation to customer experience.

Deirdre Martin
I think it’s interesting, I think we’ll be talking about Metaverse and the people engaging in Sims in terms of experience, and you know, this new Amazon show called peripheral. I think that’s going to be I think that that potentially could be the future, I think, you know, there may not be physical office spaces, I think people could end up working from home virtually potentially engaging as the same, which, you know, that might sound crazy, but you heard it here. First, some of the craziest ideas are the ones that comes to life. I do think that one of the biggest shifts as well, that’s come from COVID Is that sense of community and having a small number of people that you know, we really trust, and that we like to spend our time with. I think that’s not going to change maybe in the next number of years. But by 10 years time, maybe that will have evolved, again, back to the way it was pre COVID. Or perhaps it could go the other way. But I definitely see something happening there. And that sense where people really want to do business with people that they trust. And so that’s right now, and that’s because of COVID. It’s somebody that they really believe and I think you know, a lot of the changes well, in terms of customer experience, Greg that I see, and that I would love to see happening is that people are given the soft skills to be able to engage with people a lot better, because in my experience when because I’ve come from a corporate background, and in my experience, you get training in the technical skills, you don’t always get training in the soft skills and some behaviors are expected without ever, people receiving the support to be able to implement that behavior. And that could be something as simple as saying, Please, and thank you. It’s expected that people know how to say those things. But actually, they’re never asked to say them are invited to say them are taught when it’s appropriate to say them. And so for me, that’s something that I think customer experience in 10 years from now, not even just 10 years from now, today would benefit from

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And I think exactly what you’re saying, We’re in relation to saying thank you. It’s I’m doing that at home, I am trying to teach that to my son, and therefore why not doing that in business. I think that’s that’s the key. And thank you is not so expensive, but it can have a great positive impact towards the to other people. Thank you very much. And we are coming in the last three minutes of this game and therefore the last three questions. The first one, is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience that helped you during your career or during your life?

Deirdre Martin
Yeah, definitely. I think there’s a few actually, Denise Lee has been a huge influencer to me in terms of branding. So I think she’s got a book called Fusion which talks about culture. And she’s got another book that I can’t think of the name of right now. Oh, what great brands do that’s what it’s called. That’s definitely worth a read both of those to another one then Marty Neumeier, who I mentioned is like the grandfather of branding. He has two books. One called the brand gap, and another called zag, I would highly recommend those. And if you haven’t read the books that Howard Schultz wrote about Starbucks and his experience as a CEO, there, they are well worth a read. Yeah, I can’t think of the names of those now. But definitely just check out Howard Schultz and Starbucks. He’s great. And they’re, they make for really good reading. They’re very inspirational. And it’s, you know, it’s a real life story of transformation from how one guy who knew nothing about coffee went on to build one of the biggest companies in the world. It’s incredible.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And I think this could be also the list of suggestions for the Christmas vacation, the books to read during Christmas vacation. What’s the best way to contact you?

Deirdre Martin
Thanks, Greg. People can find me on LinkedIn, on under Deirdre Martin customer experience or also on my website deirdremartin consulting.ie

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And the last question is the golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you would leave to the audience.

Deirdre Martin
I think in terms of brand, you know, think about it as like a guiding star for your business. Something that it’s like the North Star, it should be something that guides you along your journey to achieve your business goals, whilst also differentiating you from your competitors, and making you the thought leader in your industry, not just your website. It’s not just your logo. It’s a feeling. It’s a culture. It’s an experience.

Gregorio Uglioni
The last thing that I can say is thank you very much for your time. It was a great pleasure to discuss together with you. And please stay with me; To the audience it was really a great pleasure to have this chat. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you have any question. We love feedback feel free to contact us and Dreide shared our contact details. You can contact me and I will forward everything, any question that you have. Thank you very much, and bye bye.

Deirdre Martin
Thanks, Greg.

Gregorio Uglioni
If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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Human interactions have evolved… so should your contact center! with Anand Janefalkar Founder & CEO UJET – E102

Episode released on: 28. November 2022

Human interactions have evolved… so should your contact centre! with Anand Janefalkar Founder & CEO UJET – E102 Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Anand Janefalkar

LinkedIn Headline: Founder & CEO at UJET 

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:53 Anand’s intro
  • 02:23 Anand’s values
  • 04:55 UJET.cx
  • 11:07 human interaction has evolved. So Should your contact center
  • 12:44 Proactive Services
  • 16:11 The role of Cloud
  • 23:35 The Future of CX
  • 25:58 Anand’s book suggestion
  • 27:17 Anand’s contact details
  • 27:29 Anand’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Anand’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Robert Bach

Anand’s Golden Nuggets:

  • Humans are very, very important. We always believe “bank on people more than bank on anything else”. Problems in technology, a lot of times are human problems and not technical problems. So get the right set of people together and get alignment, make sure that you have a good working relationship that is void of just impulsive behavior or egos. And then you can solve any difficult problem. That’s something that we live by and hopefully that is it just reiterate something that people believe in themselves.

“Get the right set of people together and get alignment, make sure that you have a good working relationship that is void of just impulsive behavior or egos. And then you can solve any difficult problem” Anand J. CEO @ujetcx on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Gregorio Uglioni
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I am sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you.

Gregorio Uglioni
Ladies and gentleman tonight. It’s really a big pleasure because I have Anand from UJET.cx together with me. Hi Anand, howe are you?.

Anand Janefalkar
Good, and how are you?

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. I am really happy because I will have a nice discussion together with you deep diving about customer experience and everything about human interactions with you. And therefore it’s really, really a pleasure for me to have you on the C CX goalkeeper podcast. Thank you very much for your time,

Anand Janefalkar
First the pleasures mine.

Gregorio Uglioni
Let’s really kick off and we started this game, as usual with a usual question it means Anand could you please introduce yourself?

Anand Janefalkar
Yeah, sure. So hello, everyone. My name is Anand Janefalkar, and I’m the founder and CEO for ujet.cx. Basically, quick overview of UJET. What before UJET, my background is from the the consumer world with experience in mobile handsets, smartphones operating systems than wireless cloud, which means the advent of 3g, 4g, and the trajectory of that which makes the data ubiquitous and great bandwidth for consumers. So how did that transition to customer experience happen? Well, what I figured out is the only time to humans don’t communicate visually and contextually, since the advent of the smartphones is on a support conversation, whether it’s voice chat, SMS does not really matter. It is a very incongruent with what our interaction mechanisms are with our friends and family, where we tend to share photos, video, screenshots, location, API, so on and so forth, while having a interaction or conversation that just simply does not have the customer experience or customer support whenever a company or a company’s representative is interacting with its current or potential customers. And that was something that felt needed to change. And that was the start of UJET. And that was seven years ago.

Gregorio Uglioni
thank you very much. I think this is a great introduction. And you are already explaining what what ujet is doing. Before deep diving in this outstanding product, perhaps one question to learn a bit more about you, which values drive you live.

Anand Janefalkar
So as you can tell, from the very beginning, it was user experience, that was a motivation. I always felt that there was something magical about connecting to humans or getting them to communicate easier. That drove my journey through my professional upbringing, and not just education and research, but also through the products and brands that worked at Nokia Research Center, Motorola Mobility, jawbone, all of those are kind of stepping stones towards my professional upbringing, that communication becomes easier and effortless. And as you as you can imagine, the natural evolution of communication is to interact with someone is right in front of you, you use their hand gestures, you use your body language, you kind of changed the way you you speak or your your annotations with your eyes, your and so on and so forth. Those are very important as very soft impulses stimuli for people to have an effective communication. So that is, has been continually the motivation and journey. And to make that effortless with technology are disappearing in the background. So this is just a the next step towards that because it’s extremely important for companies and brands to communicate with their audience in a very effective manner. And more importantly, what they expect today in their normal day to day digital interactions. If you really think about it, the company’s representatives or the customer support professionals, technical support, the tier volunteer two, tier three, all of these are young professionals that are just basically living their lives using the smartphone as their portal to the information universe. When they get into a support conversation. They almost have to bring their senses down and communicated in the unit dimensional perspective. So it was very important to ensure that what the motivation and journey has been for me gets extrapolated to this important interaction between companies and their target audience.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And I think this is the best possible introduction also To the main discussion that we will have today, it’s really about human interactions, and our should contact center evolve in future or now, because now it’s time to change, and therefore really kicking off the discussion about ujet.cx. Why did you decide to start ujet?

Anand Janefalkar
Right. So like I was alluding to before, there was something very, very distinctly different with how you see people communicate visually and contextually in their everyday lives with friends and family, and how the two humans communicate on a support conversation. Also, I alluded to these young professionals that are the brand ambassadors for companies that are communicating with their target audience. They are also very, very digitally acquainted. And they almost have to change their interaction model almost park their sensory abilities in a sense, and then communicate on a voice call or a chat call. It’s because the underlying tooling has been very antiquated. But then, if you also think about these people during their trainings, what one of the things that was the motivation of building NuGet, the way that we did is that the training period for the agents is very painful. And the it’s like, okay, don’t use your smartphone, use only this particular program on the computer. All of these aps that you kind of take for granted in your day to day life, don’t think about those because those are not available. AI is kind of a almost just a catchphrase, and not really implemented in the solutions. So wanting to completely transform that wanted to transform that when the two individuals at the endpoints of this interaction are utilizing devices like a smartphone and a very capable computer, there is no limitation on the communication pathways that they can have. They could do voice chat, anything, screenshots, error codes, battery level information transfer, all that together in the same medium. However, the pipe that’s connecting those two was extremely obsolete. So wanted to build an end to end platform as opposed to just a stopgap feature. And that’s what we did. And the motivation was that to completely replace what the smart connection is between these two smart devices or smart computers, and we feel that we have been able to do that, because when we see our clients utilize the usual platform with their target customers, the customer satisfaction scores are are shooting up at least 30%. And the interaction time is getting reduced by over 40 to 50%. I’ve never met any individual that says like, oh, no, I, I hate that my resolution was done in half the time people want things faster, right? We never go for, okay, let me find out what the slower car is. And I’ll go for that. We never say like, okay, it will this appointment take at least an hour, then I mean, not 15 minutes. So just naturally, we are in a little bit of a rush, because we want to make time for things that are important friends and family, as well as other passions that we have. So making sure that the first touch resolution happens in a very short time, was also a motivation to design the huge platform that we did.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you so much. And I had the pleasure already to speak with your team. And I really was positive super surprised, by the way that you were explaining that and your team is explaining that because the reality is we are using a smartphone. And we are for for us, it’s common to a video chat to write in WhatsApp, and then to switch here and there and sending information. And then you go into the contact center, and everything is split, you need to do voice on this tool, you need to chat on that tool and you don’t get the information all together. And therefore I was really, it was an outstanding presentation saying oh, that’s the reality. And it explained in a very simple way if we could give to the contact center agents, smartphones doing everything what they are doing, they will be empowered to create to create smart connection together with with their customer.

Anand Janefalkar
think and you brought up another good point is were short for the agents and customer support representatives, the the wellness administrators as well as the financial assessors and appraisers. For them. The reason and they have these different tools is because it is not all coming back together in their case management system or their customer record management system. So one of the things that we do is that as an agent, you don’t have to go ahead after the call or chat or SMS is done and say like, oh, I asked this person to send a photo over email because I wanted to get their invoice where If occation and they’ve needed to send a picture, and then after call work or after session work requires them to merge that ticket with their phone ticket or their SMS ticket. So that is why sometimes when you call back, they’re like, Okay, we can’t find your interaction before, because this is a manual process and think about how many of these conversations the agents are having, they don’t really have time to accurately do something that they have done. Because there’s different calls that are coming in different chats are coming in, and their supervisors pounding on their door, saying, like, hey, you need to get through these 20 to 30 calls a day 15 call after work periods and that have dispositions attached to them. So making all of that process, not just in the live interaction, but the follow up to that live interaction, so that the back office flow is seamless, was extremely important to us. And that is one of the things that we see is very, very important, impactful for an organization so that not just the customer is taken care of in real time. But the actual follow up actions do not require them to like go through 10 different windows and figuring out how does this get to resolution?

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. And I think you summarized also what you are saying in a very smart way. I read because I don’t want to make mistakes, human interaction has evolved. So Should your contact center? Could you quickly elaborate on that? I know you explained a lot. But I think this is really the key of this discussion.

Anand Janefalkar
Yeah, a simple example is like, let’s say you and I become friends. And we are one of our shared passions is either sports or drones, right. And so I buy a new drone, which is in limited supply, and then I’m excited to share that with you. So I might call you, you’re busy doing a podcast, so you don’t answer my call. So I’ll follow up with a text with a possible video of the first flight of the drone. That is how human interaction is today, between friends and family. Imagine if this was a conversation with a customer experience team, you would contact them that, hey, I bought this drone, but I’m unable to connect it over Bluetooth, I’m unable to connect it with my smartphone, there are issues syncing it or the camera feed is not coming through, because I’m not able to even connect the Wi Fi. These things you won’t be able to call them and then attach a video or attach a error code to that which you can do in everyday normal human interaction. So bridging that gap, making it just second nature to communicate with the company or the company’s brand ambassador, or the company’s representative in the same manner that you would normally connect is what we enable.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you. And I think this example make it really simple to understand. And let’s say effortless and next to being creating this easy services, good service for customer, we are often speaking about being proactive, and this will be able to see in future a game changer. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Anand Janefalkar
Yeah, so proactiveness is very important. Because a lot of times, if you think about it, we are as companies, right, or any brand, we are pushing product, or we’re making products enticing, that customers don’t really completely understand how they can utilize to make their lives better. So when you’re getting into that mechanism, you really need to be proactive in not just pushing to sell the product, but making that product use effective for once the sale is done. And that is similar in customer experience as well. So being proactive, understanding the simple triggers, like if you are spending time on my webpage, where I’m elaborating the different things that you can do with the product, and you’re you’re coming back and clicking on a couple of things on the unit help or you’re looking at the user guide, that is a trigger enough to proactively pop up a chat window and say like, Hey, do you need help on this particular thing? And it doesn’t have to be done only when you need to make a sale, right? Because the reality is, is if you are able to effectively get your customer to use your product, it creates brand loyalty, very effectively able to solve their problems and have a successful customer support call you have very likely repeat business for for them and they’re worth 10x Usually, or at least 8x. Usually off what do you spend to acquire a new customer? Not saying you shouldn’t do that, but you should do both. Because what happens if you’re only targeting new customers is that your churn kind of really depletes all of the metrics that you’re going for by new customer acquisition. So where I’m going with this is that the proactiveness of just seeing the simple triggers, and then enabling AI to ask if Hey, I’ve seen you visit this website I’ve seen you click on this looks like after two or three days, you’re still going through the same stuff. word self serve. And here is a connection with a financial advisor, if you’d like, here’s a connection with a technical expert to if you’re having Wi Fi issues, what that does is it shows that you care for your customer beyond the sale. And that is a very effective way to create brand loyalty. Furthermore, if you take this into the back office operations, how agents, administrators and all those communicate, taking that AI aspect of it, just having a automatic machine learning based review of these are the customer satisfaction scores. These are the different call times and chat times and wait times. These are the trends that we see during, let’s say, peak hour before during lunch hour or right after five o’clock when people are probably calling in while they’re driving home. These are the things that can be used as inputs towards making them better. So utilizing proactiveness and AI, not just at the front end of the equation, but also at the back end is something that we are strong believers in.

Gregorio Uglioni
And I think what you’re saying it totally makes sense. You touch the topic AI quickly back on the on the being proactive. I think what you’re saying it totally makes sense. I’m coming from a credit card company. And we had all we discussed always, if we as a credit card company are blocking the cards of our customers because of fraudster because of this or that, why not contacting them and telling them proactively pay attention. There was a fraud case or pay attention, you forgot to pay your bill, please pay your bill. And then we can you can use the card again. And I think this is really a game changer because then people feel cared about because I am proactively contacting them. Not now you’re you’re touching the topic AI and I think this is one key topic. But I know that you are also an expert about cloud computing. And a lot of people think about that cloud is a new technology or a new buzzword that we should use. But we all agree or at least we agree that it’s business model transformation. And can you please expand a bit more on this concept speaking also thinking about a CX executive?

Anand Janefalkar
Yeah. So Cloud, to me is something that is very native to my professional journey. With all the transitions from going from, that’s a push button phones all the way to smartphones and tablets and Bluetooth speakers and IoT devices, right? So we live in an age in a world today, where information is readily available, and it is available anywhere, because the connection points between what are your gateway to the information highway, the smartphone, or even even if it’s not a smartphone, even if it’s a feature phone, it does still have that capability. Most of your tablets, most of your computers that you’re likely carrying around, has that capability. So there is no emphasis really on, okay, this is the work you did and then save a copy on it on your local machine. And then make sure that you’re uploading something somewhere else. So that you’re, you have access to it. If let’s say you’re on the move, and you’re trying to access it well sitting in the chair of a underground metro, those, we don’t have those conversations because that’s automatic to us. Fast forward, what happens after you get off that Metro and go into your office, a lot of times the information if you’re on a system that is an on prem system that is only available when you have that connection point, this has nothing to do about security. A lot of times the naysayers will say like oh, but this is secure and all that you can enable security with VPN with encryption with the secure key exchanges, both private and public, so that you can have those transitions. Pat’s have very, very properly curated for for any kind of privacy and security procedures. But continuing on that example that you’re going and you can only access that information while you’re you’re at this particular building. What that does, it breaks the entire way that people want to work today. Right, even before the pandemic of working from different sites are working if you’re in the global economy. Almost every recognizable brand has presence in multiple multiple countries, that itself enables the need for having a cloud computing solution. And having a solution which the it doesn’t matter where you’re connecting to what your sort of source of truth or your databases or your application toolkit is. So after the pandemic, this got even more exacerbated because you just couldn’t really go on to your office or your on prem there certain There’s a lot of restrictions that were. And there were things that people really needed to do to take care of themselves and not get exposed to because they might also have their family and their elderly and their family in, in danger. So what that did is it took cloud, or the transition from on prem to cloud from being a checkbox as an experiment, or a checkbox as a business continuity practice to actual reality. Now, some of this was done very impulsively. Some of this was done very half heartedly, just because time was not available when that transition needed to happen and business continuity being preserved. But what Today we’re in as we were, hopefully, at the very tail end, if not past the, the worst part of the pandemic. Now, people should think about executives and customer experience professionals should think about the transition that we did, then if it is still the same today. Is that future proof? Is that how we would have wanted to architect that? Yes, we did what we needed to do, because we just needed to keep the lights on. But is it the same thing that we need to do for enhancing our business operations going forward? So asking that question, I think is the first step towards proper cloud transformation, and not just a reactive change that you did a couple of years ago. And then what quickly people will realize is that there’s several different functions that you need to do their security will be one part of it, we are proud to always say that we had sock two type two security, even before we had a website. And we continued on that path. And today, we ensure that the content one of the conversations we have with the companies that we work with is with the the InfoSec team or with the Chief Information Security Officer and getting them comfortable, get them to really embrace that trading security for Cloud is is really not an option, or it shouldn’t be an option, it comes hand in hand. Because you cannot jeopardize your operations just because you’re making a transformation on your, your toolkit or your IT systems. where I’m going with that is that is that that first step is extremely important. And you really need to identify yourself or someone in your team that you trust as the champion for that cloud transformation. And furthermore, taking that so that you could enable those conversations, those interactions with your customers.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. I would have now given that question that I would have, but the taking care of the time the last question that I have also on this topic. Basically, I have a CEO shaping the future of the contact center here with me. And therefore I would like to ask this question, what do you foresee in the future of customer experience, for example, in 10 years from now

Anand Janefalkar
10 years is a long time. But hopefully in the next three to four years, we will be at a point where we get customer support, not as customer support, because customer support sometimes is just considered as a checkbox or as a necessary evil. I think customer support will become customer experience, which will be a part of the multi experience, world that we are hopefully about to enter, you are using connection points to access your service, right? We no longer feel that the channels are as important as they were 1015 years ago, channels were channels because they were device limitations, right? Your landline could only do voice, your pager could only do text, your website on your computer could do chat, but it couldn’t do chat on your mobile website. All of those limitations are gone. So channels are really, really obsolete. Now. What we believe in is what is the multi experience? What are the connection points. So the connection points are largely the the app that you utilize with your smartphone or your computer, right, you’re you’re trying to interact with a brand or service through a website, you’re trying to interact with the brand or service through their app, or you simply since you’re from a credit card company, you’re just looking at the back of your card and calling that number. But just because you are calling that number that’s printed on the back of your credit card or the box of a product that you bought does not mean it shouldn’t be limited to that channel. What that can do. One of the things that we strongly believe in is SMS as a enabler for multi experience. So that phone number that you’re we’ve seen that 98.5% of the time when people are calling in even in that mechanism. They’re calling in from a SMS capable device, if not 100% of the time. But they’re calling in from that SMS capable device doesn’t even have to be smartphones. It is a camera enabled device, even if it’s a feature phone that has SMS. So enable that multi experience. When you see that someone’s selecting an option and out here and reaching out, because I’m having an issue with my product or service, you immediately know that you can effectively solve that with visual and contextual information as opposed to just a uni dimensional analog voice vector. So enabling that is the first step. And hopefully in three or four years, this becomes just very matter of fact, it’s like, yeah, Greg communicated with this particular brand. They already knew that he had spent time on their websites that they didn’t offer him a self. Have you tried ourselves, sir, while you wait for it? They didn’t make him wait on the car. Because they said like, Hey, we’ve, you can more effectively get this, if you start a conversation with chat and video embedded in it, and you steer them towards that multi experience. I think that is where the world is going. And I’m excited that we are hopefully, trailblazing that path for the companies

Gregorio Uglioni
where you were interesting. And I think we already have a topic for the next podcast together with you multi experience. But now let’s conclude this first game together with you. And three short question in the last three minutes of this podcast. The first question is, is there a book that you would suggest to the audience that helped you during your career or during your life?

Anand Janefalkar
Well, that’s a tough question. There’s the one book that maybe immediately comes to mind, I think I’m getting you’re gonna get the name correct is, is, I believe the name of Jonathan Livingston Seagull, which was, which is a book that sharks out. I think it’s by Robert Bach, it is the journey of a seagull on how they developed the their skills of not just being aware of flying, which should be very inherent, but flying fast, and continuing to embark on their journey to fly faster, and hopefully safer. I think that was as someone that is absolutely obsessed with speed, both in business and very impatient. That book was definitely one that I felt was supremely impactful.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. The best way to contact you?

Unknown Speaker
is through our website and my email. It’s very simple anand AT ujet dot CX

Gregorio Uglioni
And now we are coming to the last question. And and this is another golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you would leave to the audience.

Anand Janefalkar
Yes. So I strongly feel that this has shaped my journey in life. That it it, humans are very, very important, right? We always believe that bank on people more than bank on anything else. And problems in technology, a lot of times are human problems and not technical problems. So get the right set of people together and get alignment, make sure that you have a good working relationship that is void of just impulsive behavior or egos. And then you can solve any any difficult problem. That’s something that we live by and hopefully that is it just reiterate something that people believe in themselves.

Gregorio Uglioni
Thank you very much. The only thing that I can say is thank you very much for your time. I really enjoy seeing the growth part of ujet.cx It’s really an outstanding product. Thank you very much for your time.

Anand Janefalkar
Thank you for having me.

Gregorio Uglioni
And also to the audience. It was a pleasure that you followed this discussion. We are always happy to get feedback please contact me or the anon director is team if you have any question related to ujet Dotty extent you very much. Have a nice evening. Bye bye.

Gregorio Uglioni
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it a word of mouth, subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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The Experience Economy with Joe Pine – E101

Episode released on: 21. November 2022

The Experience Economy with Joe Pine Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Joe Pine

LinkedIn Headline: Speaker, management advisor, and author of such books as The Experience Economy, Infinite Possibility, Authenticity, and Mass Customization.

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 01:34 Joe’s introduction
  • 02:12 Joe’s values
  • 05:35 The progression of the economic value
  • 09:30 Mass Customization
  • 11:31 The coffee example
  • 13:31 Amazon
  • 18:55 Customers’ attention
  • 20:57 Measuring memorabilities
  • 26:50 Joe’s book suggestion
  • 28:56 The future of CX
  • 30:47 Joe’s contact details
  • 32:07 Joe’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Guest’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Future Perfect by Stan Davis

Joe’s Golden Nuggets:

  • I would suggest every person in the audience ask themselves, what business are we really in? Are we in the business of extracting commodities, making goods, delivering services, staging experiences, and even guiding transformations? And so for example, for you, Greg, and others who are really helping companies embrace these concepts. You’re in the transformation business, you need to guide them into achieving their aspirations of becoming great experience companies. And so it’s always important to ask what business you’re in and recognize the opportunities of being in the higher level businesses in the progression of economic value.

what business are we really in? Are we in the business of extracting commodities, making goods, delivering services, staging experiences, and even guiding transformations? @joepine on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

And so it’s always important to ask what business you’re in and recognize the opportunities of being in the higher level businesses in the progression of economic value. @joepine on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation, and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I’m sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you.

Tonight. It’s really a big, big pleasure because the founder of customer experience together with me, Joe Pine. Hi Joe, how are you?

Joe Pine 0:35
Greg, I’m doing just fine. I appreciate being on your CX goalkeeper podcast and talking about my views.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:43
Thank you very much. It’s really a great, great pleasure. And before we start, this was one of the first book that I read. And and it’s really something that I say, it made me better in business, and also in my personal life. And this is the thinking and what we are sharing in the customer experience, community, and therefore we are really thankful for the great work that you did, too. Thank you very much for that.

Joe Pine 1:08
Well, that was very high praise, Greg, I appreciate that. But I gotta ask you to? Did you read it first in the original edition?

Gregorio Uglioni 1:16
No, I have only this edition. I’m sorry for that.

Joe Pine 1:19
Okay, wow, that one came out in 2020. Right, the first one came out in 99. We had updated vision 2011. So, so I’m glad that you became acquainted with in the last few years. That’s terrific.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:34
Thank you very much. Before we deep dive speaking about the experience economy, we would like to learn more about you. And therefore as usual, I always, I always ask, could you please introduce yourself?

Joe Pine 1:46
Sure. I’m Joe Pine. And I often the first thing you say as co author of the experience economy, but But what I do is I go around the world speaking, teaching and consulting, and helping companies create greater economic value in their business.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:04
Thank you very much. And perhaps, in order to learn a bit more about you, which one just drives you in life?

Joe Pine 2:11
Which what?

Gregorio Uglioni 2:12
values.

Joe Pine 2:14
Well, that’s a great question. So. So number one, right, as a as a, as a Christian, it’s important to have the values that the God instills in us. And it’s important also in in business to to have those same values shouldn’t shouldn’t you do different things differently in business than in your, in your personal life. But I will say that, so you know, our, you know, our greater purpose is to glorify God. But my specific purpose in business, I often say is to do is to understand what’s going on in the world of business, and then develop frameworks that first describe what’s happening, and then prescribe what companies can do about it. And so the short version of that sort of our three word theme of our company’s strategic Horizons is frameworks are us.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:08
Thank you very much. And I think that’s also a really a great framework for everybody in the customer experience community. It’s your book, the experience economy, it’s more than 20 years old, perhaps from where came the idea of writing such a book?

Joe Pine 3:25
Well, it actually first came, it came from my first book, which is mass customization, you know, mass customization about efficiently serving customers uniquely. And what I discovered is that when you mass customize, you automatically turn a good into a service. If you look at the classic economic distinctions, goods are standard us because the services are customized, they’re done just for a particular person, goods or inventory after production. But services are delivered on demand when the customer says this is what they want. And goods are tangible and services intangible, but an integrated part of mass customization is the intangible service of helping people figure out what is it they want, right? So then you figure that out, then you put together the product and give it just to them individually. And when I said that, in one session long ago, was late 93, early 94. I, one of the guys in the back of the room raised his hand, he said we are you you already talked about service companies that Nast customize, what does it turn a service into? And I shot back that mass customization automatically turns a service into an experience. Whoa, that sounds good. But hold on a sec, I gotta write that down. And I thought about that. And I realized it was true that if you design a service that is so appropriate for this particular person, exactly the service that they need at this moment in time, that you can’t help but make them go wow, and turn it into a memorable event. That’s what an experience is a memorable event that engages each individual in an inherently personal way. And so I realized, well, then if that’s true, then experiences are a distinct economic offering. as distinct from services as services or from goods, and if that were true, then there would be an economy based off of experiences the experience economy. And so that’s what led to share that with a client, actually, that became my partner, Jim Gilmore. And we worked on that and publish the original book in 1999, as you said, although we started publishing articles on it, 96 and 97. And even though Okay, so like I discovered this almost 30 years ago, it’s even more applicable today. Right, everything we wrote about is ethical today.

Gregorio Uglioni 5:35
Exactly. I think you discovered something, certainly 30 years ago, but nowadays, it’s extremely relevant. And you mentioned two topics that I think it’s important to deep dive. The first one is the progression of the economic value. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Joe Pine 5:50
Yeah. So that that progression of how economies evolve over time, how the primary economic offering shifts over time begins actually before goods, and that’s what commodities, commodities that for millennia, we have extracted them out of the ground and sell them on the marketplace, commodities are the basis, the agrarian economy, then with the industrial revolution of the 18th century, and in particular, the rise of the system of mass production in the early 20th century, is when goods became the predominant economic offering, and we shifted into an industrial economy over over 200 years ago. Now, now services have like goods and prices have always been around, but they’ve came became the predominant economic offering. And the latter half of the 20th century, even manufacturers increasingly gotten more and more into services made more money on the services rather than the goods that worked for IBM. And that was the case, we started valuing the services more highly making more money off into services. And and so what happens then in the service economy is that goods become commoditized, that you’re treated like commodities, that people who care about the brand, or the features all pretty much the same anyway, they come to care about three things, and three things only, and that’s price, price and price. And that’s when goods have been commoditized. Now, increasingly, services are being commoditized, as well. And that means that companies need to find a new source of differentiation, right? I mean, you could live with being a commodity. You know, there’s one or two companies in every industry that can be successful, the ones that low, lower their cost that automate as much as possible to get rid of as many people as possible. Not very fun, but but you can be very successful. But otherwise, you search for differentiation. And that leads to the next level of experiences. And again, experiences have always been around, they’re not a new economic offering, just newly identified, where you think of it as use goods as props and services as a stage to again, engage, right, that’s the key word, engage each person and then inherently personally, and then create that memory, which is the hallmark of the experience. So now we’ve shifted into an experience economy. Now, I should mention, too, that there’s one more level in the progression of economic diet, where where, because experiences can be commoditized, you know, been there done that, that’s the hallmark of a commoditized experience. And, and but when you customize an experience, when you design an experience, now that so appropriate for a particular person, you can’t help but turn into what we often call a life transforming experience and experience that changes us in some way. And so that’s a transformation. A transformation is the fifth and final economic offering in this progression of economic value, where you have experiences as a raw material to guide people to change. Things like fitness centers, and healthcare and higher education management consultants in b2b are all about transformation. And it’s always been a part of the progression economic value. It’s there from the very beginning. Because all you ask, well, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next. But we did my partner, Jim Gilmore and several other colleagues, we came out with an article in the Harvard Business Review in January, February of this year 2020, called the new you business on transformation and provide a lot more detail on it. And that’s what it is, you’re using experiences to help people create a new view. And that’s the highest economic value you can provide.

Gregorio Uglioni 9:16
I read this article, and not only the content was great, but also the picture that you use with all these flowers. They were outstanding.

Joe Pine 9:24
I wish I could take credit for it. But no, that’s all the Harvard Business Review editors

Gregorio Uglioni 9:30
know. Sure. But at the end, the content is the important part. And it was really, really interesting. I think you mentioned another topic that is relevant, and we should understand is mass customization. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Joe Pine 9:44
Yeah. So So mass customization, is when you when when was recognizing first of all that that customers are unique, right? That every individual person, every business, whoever started you they’re unique to every other thing we We often we combine them into mass markets and segments and niches, we, we think that generations are all alike, or they have the same demographic, they’re all alike. And that’s just complete hogwash. Every customer is unique. So we need to give them exactly what they want. But we need to do it at a price you’re willing to pay, we can’t just increase our cost tremendously in order to customize. So that’s the mass part of customization. And the secret to doing that, or that or the number one principle to doing that is modularity. Right? When you think of modularity, think of Lego building bricks. Right? Greg, what can you build with Legos? Everything, everything every why? Because you have a large number of modules, different sizes, different shapes, different colors, and a simple, elegant linkage system for stacking them together. That’s all modularity is modules plus linkage system. So if you can modularize your offerings, or your processes by which you make those offerings, then you can match truly mass customization, often you can lower costs by modularization. Over producing the same thing over and over again, while at the same time you’re eliminating the sacrifice that people undergo when they have to buy something standard. So today, you can get virtually you know, there’s almost not a product out there, or a service or and not yet experiences, but some where you can’t efficiently customize for individual people or businesses.

Gregorio Uglioni 11:31
Thank you very much. I think you’re always using one one great example. This is the coffee example, perhaps also for the people that are not really in the CX community that can a bit understand a bit more about that. Could you please share that?

Joe Pine 11:45
Yeah, it’s an example that works around the world, right? Because like, almost everywhere around the world, you drink a coffee. And and if you recognize, well, what is coffee at its core, it’s beans, right? Coffee beans, you grow out of the ground, right, those are a true commodity. But then you extract them out of the ground. And then manufacturers take those beans, and they grind them, they roast them, they packaged them, they put them on a grocery store shelf. Now if you look at what farmers get for the commodity at the commodity level, right, if you convert it from a per pound to a per cup basis, basically you farmers get two or three cents per cup. That’s what coffee is worth per cup at the commodity level. But manufacturers right because of the increased convenience, because the packaging because they’re bringing it to market and so forth, they get 510 15 cents per cup. But you take those beans, and now you you actually brew them for a customer in a vending machine, a corner diner, a kiosk, bodega, or, you know, a Dunkin Donuts 711 around the world, right, then you get 50 cents, dollar dollar and a half per cup of coffee. But surround the brewing of the coffee, with the ambiance and theater of an experiential coffee shop like Starbucks, of course, which brought it to the world. Now how much you pay right off in three, four or $5 for a cup of coffee that only has two or three cents worth of beans in. Right. That’s the progression of economic value. That’s how you create more value. Notice that there’s two orders of magnitude and value credit go from two or three cents to three to $5. And and that’s in recognition of the value that people get out of out of that. At each level.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:31
I think what what you’re saying is it’s extremely interesting. And I had the opportunity to participate to several conferences where we were speaking or I was watching you. And one time I had the opportunity to ask you also a question. And it was the Amazon question. Because every, let’s say customer experience expert is saying what is what Amazon is offering? It’s a great experience and usually explained in a very nice way. Not an experience. Correct? It’s a great story. But could you please share that?

Joe Pine 14:04
Sure. Sure. It’s and well, so there’s a sense in which and it’s an experience because the word experience is incredibly expansive word. And so so so one can say truthfully, that as long as we’re conscious we’re experiencing, and somebody else could say, well, if you’re dreaming, your exterior brain is experiencing something as well. Right? So yes, there is that sense of it. But not it’s not an experience as a true distinctive economic offering and this progression of economic value that I’m talking about. Right, so So why? Well, because one of the core distinctions between services and experiences is time well saved as a service. Time Well Spent is an experience that people value the time that they’re spending, that’s what they’re buying from you. And what Amazon does is it is the best time well saved company in the world. Right where you can quickly find exactly what you want. You can one click and order it And boom, it’s on your way to your house and you spent 10 seconds. I mean, literally, from from thinking of something you want to buy to order, you spend 10 seconds, I remember being at a conference once and this is a I had this was many years, it’s 2011, I think it’s when my book infinite possibility came out, which is about using digital technology to fuse the real and the virtual. And I was at a conference and I was talking about that, and I had a copy with me. And then a guy said, Oh, let me see that. Oh, wow, that’s fantastic. goes click, click Amazon app opens up camera view, sees the book, clicks it, recognize it, boom, done, on his way to his house. I mean, literally 10 seconds. Right. So that is incredibly time well saved versus saying, Oh, I think I want that book, I’m gonna go find a Barnes and Noble or other bookstore somewhere, and they’re gonna go seek it out. And we’re gonna, hopefully they have it on the shelf. If not, I gotta order it, you know, that’ll take weeks, you know, so forth. So so it’s absolutely wonderful service. And what it does is it gets into what I think is the core distinction between what most people call customer experience, and what we mean by true distinctive experiences. That what most people call customer experiences, just making our interactions with customers nice and easy and convenient. Or frictionless is sort of the byword now. Right, Amazon is frictionless, it’s beautiful. But all those characteristics, nice, easy, convenient frictions are all service characteristics. They’re not experienced characteristics. Right? Nice is nice. But rarely does it rise to the level of memorability. And to create a true distinctive experience, you have to create that memory. That’s the hallmark of the experience or residue of the experience. We make things easy, often we root nice things for our own employees to make it easy to deliver a service to their customers. But that gets in the way of being personal, right? That’s doing the same thing for everybody again, because I want to make it easy. But But experiences are inherently personal experiences actually happen inside of us. Right, it’s our reaction to the events that are staged in front of us. And finally, again, convenience is the antithesis of what I’m talking about. Because then convenience is spending less time with customers spending as little time as possible. And you know, you know, that’s what that’s what most customers want today from goods and services, is they want to spend as little time with the company, why should they care, and they want it to be commoditized via the lowest possible price and the greatest possible convenience, spend as little time on what why so they can spend their hard earned money and your hard earned time on the experiences that people value. So experiences again, are about time. That’s the key their experiences are about the time that customer spend with you. And then it’s time well spent.

Gregorio Uglioni 17:42
I think that’s extremely important what what you’re saying, and it’s also part of the title of the book, it’s competing for customer time, attention and money. One remark on what you said, and then we can speak about getting the customer attention. That’s what we discussed also, then via email, when while I was inviting you to this to this podcast, it was perhaps with Amazon, I can compare and use any other shop to buy something. It’s extremely silly if it’s this seamless as Amazon, but an experience like my preferred soccer men’s soccer team. I would never change that. Even if they would lose the Olympic Games in the championship, I would say committed to them.

Joe Pine 18:25
Exactly, exactly. I’m going through that right now with baseball. I’m a diehard New York Yankees fan. And they’ve had the best record in baseball, it’s been a wonderful season, just enjoy it all of a sudden, they’re like losing three out of four games. And it’s like terrible, but But am I gonna switch and watch somebody else? Well, of course not. This is my team. Right? And they provide and they’re obviously they’re in the experience business is what all sports are. And you create that relationship with them. You’re gonna keep it for life.

Gregorio Uglioni 18:55
Exactly. Thank you very much. We spoke a bit about attention. And I think that’s that’s the big issue that a lot of businesses, because the attention of people is decreasing and decreasing. If I read that the last thing that I read about tick tock, people are watching 2.7 seconds, a video and then it is hard to switch to the next one. How can I create such an experience in so short timeframe?

Joe Pine 19:19
Right? Well, in fact, if you think about the smartphone, for every business is the number one competitor for attention. And and so any experience that you read, you can immediately drop out of that experience by picking up your smartphone and go someplace else virtually. And that’s true for smartphone experiences. Like you say I’m going to tic tac video. It’s like boom, done nope, not engaging me. I will go someplace else. So getting people’s attention is increasingly important through through engagement again, by creating experiences that they truly value. today. You know, a lot of a lot of companies try and get attention via advertising But advertising just doesn’t work in today’s world like it used to, I mean, great ones are great. And they’ll always be be be beneficial. But for the most part, most companies should stop advertising and putting them put their marketing money into experiences. So they engage people. It’s why you see the rise of places like the Guinness Storehouse in Dublin, the Heineken Experience in Amsterdam, the role of Coca Cola in Atlanta and so on and so forth. Is it major brands recognize that they want to reach people and engage them with the brand right and capture their time as well as their attention? And if you can’t capture people’s time and attention? Well, the chances are they’re going to spend money on you is is so much higher, right? That’s why we say that in today’s experience economy, as the subtitle of the book has it is that you’re competing for customer time, attention and money. These are the three key things the currencies of the experience economy.

Gregorio Uglioni 20:57
Thank you very much. I think what what you’re often explaining to us and repeating is that we need to make these experience memorable that people need to remember that is there a way to measure that memorability?

Joe Pine 21:11
Yes, it’s it’s, it’s still more of an art versus a science in terms of memorabilia, you can survey people, you can think of them you can watch their social media posts, right, and how often they mentioned something you can do sentiment analysis when they talk about you and so forth. One company I know, immersion neuro from famous neuroscientist Paul Zak has created the ability to measure how engaged or immersed somebody is in an experience through Fitbit devices, and other such devices, right. So they actually can measure the blood flow of your body. They do fMRI, correlate that to what’s going on in your brain. And they can actually draw you the dramatic structure of an experience and show when you’re engaged in when you’re not through through any sort of experience. So the science is starting to catch up with the art and be able to measure that level of attention and engagement. And often and you can use a proxy for time. Right? So how much time are people spending in your experience? Right, that’s a great proxy for the attention as well. And as well as how much money they’re spending, one of the one of and I know, I know, you you like this part, but one of the things we added in the new edition of the book is the concept of the money value of time. Right? The money value of time, is it allows you to compare across industries and other companies by simply saying how many how much expenditures per minute, there are customers providing you, right, so like if you go to a Starbucks, for example, and you spend $5 on a cup of coffee, and you spend a half hour or an hour in the place, enjoying the experience, the aesthetic experience they provide? Well, you’re actually spending five to 10 cents per minute, right? That’s what it works out to. If you go to a movie and span you like 12 US dollars for a two hour experience, you’re fending 10 cents per minute for that movie, you go to a to Walt Disney World, right and you spend over $100 for eight or 910 hour a day, guess what you’re spending over 20 cents per minute, right every minute in there, you just take a couple of dimes or a quarter out of your pocket and throw it away. That’s what you’re spending. So use that to compare across industries. And the higher the money value of time or MBT then the greater level of engagement and intention that you’re doing the greater value of the time that they have for for their money. And many places now like escape rooms, as well as immersive art exhibits like Meow Wolf and the Van Gogh experience and others. They’re getting for 3040 50 cents per minute. They’re getting more a higher MBT than even Disney has on its theme parks.

Gregorio Uglioni 24:00
And props. Let’s add me one example. Because in Europe who wants to watch soccer match Champions League, then you pay 90 euros for 90 minutes. And then they’re speaking for one euro for each minutes.

Joe Pine 24:12
There’s X. Exactly. It’s a it’s a great example because it works out so well. Right? You’re playing a Euro minute for a for a soccer match. That’s a very high MVT.

Gregorio Uglioni 24:24
Exactly. Thank you very much. I think the last two questions on the book. Did you really expect it to be easy to get such a success out of this book?

Joe Pine 24:34
Yes. Yes, absolutely. We thought we thought I’d like the greatest concept in the world. In fact, I’ll tell you a little story before that is that I told you how he discovered it out of mass customization. And I was working with a now my partner Jim Gilmore. But then he was my biggest client. He was a consultant with CSC. And he was in I was scheduled to meet with him fly to cleave And so and like the day or two before I had really started thinking about this even more, and I got down, I got out a one night, I couldn’t go to sleep. So I got out this giant sheet a sheet of paper, and I started writing all the economic distinctions between all the five economic offerings, right, everything I could think of, and then that really likes to write these really are distinct, this is different. And so I thought, I just thought, well, this is so good, right? This has got to be released in the world. So the next morning, I took that piece of paper, I typed it up. And then I call Jim secretary. And I told her, I says, I’m going to fax you a one piece shadow sheet of paper, I want you to go over the fax machine, please. And because I don’t want anyone else to see it right when it’s coming through, but I didn’t want to take that sheet of paper, put it in a manila envelope, seal it up, and give it to Jim, but write on it do not open until you see Joe. Right. You know, I did that for two reasons. i One is I do would bug him all day long to have a sheet that he can’t open up and to if my plane went down on the way to Cleveland, I wanted somebody to have this so that it would get out into the world. Right. So now and I can’t say that all the huge success of experience companies in the last 25 years are because of me, right? That’s not the case at all. They I mean, Disney started doing its thing in 1955 when they came out with with with Disneyland. And but it’s that it’s that. So II, so the experience of counting would have haven’t come about even if I’d never come along to name it. Eventually somebody else would have named it but it does. It did help many companies recognize much earlier than they would have that. Yeah, this is something different. This is something distinct, this is something that we need to do.

Gregorio Uglioni 26:50
Thank you very much. We are running out of time, and the game is coming to an end. But I would like to ask you three questions. There are short questions, the firt. The first one is, is there an order book that you can mention that helped you during your life? Or do or during your career?

Joe Pine 27:09
Can I yeah, in terms of what the book that changed my life is Stan Davis’s book Future Perfect. It’s from 1987. But it’s as applicable today as it was when he read it wrote it. I was a strategic planner for IBM when I read it. And when I read it was like the heavens opened up in the angel saying because he he did, he coined the term mass customization. He had a chapter in there and mass customized. I said, Yes, this is exactly what we need to do at IBM. And I’ve worked to get it into our plans and strategies and our division at IBM. And then IBM sent me to MIT for a year to get my master’s degree. And I said, Well, I’m gonna write a thesis on mass customization. And I’m gonna turn it into a book, I mean, immediately. That’s what I said. That’s what I did. That, of course, led to the experience economy, he has another chapter in there called no matter. And the idea being is that the amount of materiality that the corporations need us to create economic value is decreasing, you know, almost exponentially and the singularity folks will tell you it is exponentially. And so there’s much greater value to be had in digital technology and how you reduce that materiality. And that inspired the book I mentioned earlier, infinite possibility, where I recognize Well, if there’s matter and no matter, there must be space and no space, real places, virtual places, there must be time and no time, right time, space, and matter are the trinity of variables that make up the universe and all of our experience. But digital technology enables, again, no time, no space, and no matter. And that framework is the core of infinite possibility that looks at all the different ways that you can fuse, the real and the virtual. So that’s the book so I wouldn’t be here today. Talk with you, Greg, if it weren’t for that book.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:56
Thank you very much. And perhaps you spoke about this book that was written quite a lot of time ago. What do you foresee in customer experience, for example, in 10 years from now?

Joe Pine 29:09
Well, hopefully 10 years from now, everybody and customer experience will recognize the difference between great service and great experiences, the distinctions between those and work effect as much effectively on experiences as on services, because you so experiences are built on top of service, part of the progression of economic values that all of these offerings are built upon the ones below, you can’t have a transformation without experiences that the change that you can’t have experienced without the sort of service activities that make that happen. You can’t have services activities without the objects that use to do those services. And you can’t have those objects unless you have the raw materials and commodities. So so like you go to a Disney World theme park again, since we’ve mentioned them. You want the service aspects to be nice and easy and convenient. You don’t want to spend 20 minutes and ambition getting into the park you want With that, boom done. So you got, well, let’s get a magic band. Let’s go boom, done. Beep you’re on right takes a fraction of a second practically. That’s what you want. So that sounds great. All of the things that are doing to make the the services frictionless are great, because again, they free up people’s time, right? And their money, but but people’s time, the most precious resource on the planet is the time of individual human beings. And great CX frees up that time, again, so they can spend on experiences. But in the CX profession, we need to then spend the time on making sure those experiences are done well that those experiences are engaging, compelling, and especially a memorable.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:47
Thank you very much. The last question before we close with the golden nugget, if somebody would like to contact you to ask your questions.

Joe Pine 30:57
If you want to contact me, you can connect on me with LinkedIn as as you did, Greg, and I’m also on Twitter at Joe Pine. And then we have a website strategic horizons.com strategic horizons with an s.com where you can learn all about me my partner or ideas, I’ve got thought posts out there, where I extend the ideas from the book that you can look up. We have an on there, you also find out about our experience economy expert certification course, a four and a half day immersion in the experience of time where you truly become an expert and all the ideas principles and frameworks we have. As well as we have an onstage offering, that’s frontline video training. So if you’re your frontline, your frontline people, you’re interacting directly with customers, you need to understand that work is theater, and you need to direct your workers to act, and onstage is a great way to be able to do that.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:55
Thank you very much. You also have an outstanding newsletter that I will add into into the show notes that people can can join and subscribe it clinically. Yeah,

Joe Pine 32:04
quarterly newsletter and it’s on our contact page.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:08
Thank you very much. And now we’re really coming to an end. The last question is Joe Pine’s golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new today, we’d like to leave to the audience.

Joe Pine 32:19
I would add the golden I can I leave as I would suggest every person in the audience ask themselves, what business are we really in? What business are we really in? Are we in the business of extracting commodities, making goods, delivering services, staging experiences, and, and even guiding transformations? Right? And so for example, for for you, Greg, and others who are really helping companies embrace these concepts. Well, you’re really in the transformation business, right? You need to help companies guide you to guide them into achieving their aspirations of becoming great experience companies. And so it’s always important to ask what business you’re in and recognize the opportunities of being in the higher level businesses in the progression of economic value.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:12
I conclude saying thank you very much, Joe. For me, it was a great experience. I will remember for a long time this discussion, thank you very much for your time. Really appreciate that. Thank you.

Joe Pine 33:22
Thank you. Great. Thanks for having me on.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:25
Joe, please stay with me and to the audience: Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. Please watch the web page of Joe look on that look on at these videos because I think you can really learn something and we can drive the customer experience and the business for everybody. For what Thank you very much. It was great pleasure.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it. Until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Customer Science with Colin Shaw – E100

Episode released on: 14. November 2022

Customer Science with Colin Shaw Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Colin Shaw

LinkedIn Headline: Global Influencer in Customer Experience & Marketing | Financial Times Award For Leading Consultancy For Last 4 Years | Host of ‘The Intuitive Customer’ in Top 5% | Best-selling Author x 7 | Conference Speaker

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:51 Colin’s introduction
  • 06:19 Colin’s values
  • 08:31 The customer satisfaction index
  • 09:56 No single silver bullet in customer experience
  • 11:04 Customer Science
  • 15:29 Data
  • 21:49 Behavioral science
  • 31:08 Artificial Intelligence
  • 35:44 An example: Apple
  • 37:19 The Future of CX
  • 38:40 Colin’s book suggestion
  • 40:04 Colin’s contact details
  • 41:08 Colin’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Colin’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Who Moved My Cheese, by Spencer Johnson
  • Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life by Rory Sutherland

Guest’s Golden Nuggets:

  • I would really suggest that you look into this whole area of memory. I’ve even thought about writing another book on it. We have actually just doing a mini series on the podcast about memory. So really look into this whole area of memory. Because when you think about it, we are affected in our decision making, by what we remember. And I really don’t think there are enough people out there thinking about the effects of your memory and how that influences your behavior, and what you’re doing and stuff like that. So really take a look at the whole area of memory.

We are affected in our decision making, by what we remember. I don’t think there are enough people out there thinking about the effects of your memory and how that influences your behavior and what you’re doing @ColinShaw_CX on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast your host, Greg will have smart discussions with friends, experts and thought leaders on customer experience transformation, and leadership. Please follow this podcast on your preferred platform. I am sure you will enjoy the next episode with the guest I selected for you,

Ladies and gentleman tonight it is really a big, big pleasure because this is my episode number 100. And I am super happy and super thrilled that I can discuss about customer experience together with Colin Shaw. Hi Colin, how are you?

Colin Shaw 0:39
I’am great. And congratulations on 100 episodes, that is a really good milestone. It’s not easy doing 100. It’s easy to intend, but not easy to do and 100. So well done.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:51
Yes, and you are doing also great with your podcasts you already are already at 200 episodes. But give me time, I will also achieve this this target. We will discuss about your podcast a bit later. But first of all, really, thank you very much for your time for being here to discuss about customer experience, and in particular about customer science today. Before we deep dive in customer science, we would like to learn a bit more about you. You are very well known. But I always ask Could you please introduce yourself?

Colin Shaw 1:26
Yeah, so Colin Shaw, I’ve been doing customer experience worked for the last since 2002. So even before customer experience was being talked about written seven books on the subject. Yeah, well, I don’t know what else there is to say I’ve got a family, grandchildren Great. Enjoying life.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:48
That’s great. But I think it’s important also to mention beyond philosophy, that your company is something that you created the fourth time in a row, the best consulting company nominated by the Financial Times. And you have also an outstanding podcasts. Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Colin Shaw 2:08
Sure. this is this is the British bit of me, which is trying not to blow my own Trump as they say. So yeah. So beyond philosophy we started 20 years ago. As you mentioned, it’s now been recognized by the Financial Times as one of the best management consultancies for the last four years, which is really good. The podcast is called the intuitive customer. We’ve been going for nearly five years now. So we’ve done I don’t know how many episodes probably around 250 Odd episodes. But so yeah, so the intuitive customer where we talk a bit more about lots of advanced stuff on customer experience and some of the things I think we’re going to be talking about today.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:55
Yes, thank you very much. You are mentioning, we are discussing perhaps could you also mention something about your colleague, Professor Ryan Hamilton?

Colin Shaw 3:04
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So Professor Ryan Hamilton, it sounds very grand when you’ve got a professor on your show. But Professor Hamilton and I wrote my last book together, or our last book, he co authored it called the intuitive customer, which is the name of the podcast, obviously. And we have such a good time in him telling me stuff me telling him stuff. And he used to be a stand up comic. So it’s an unusual combination. So we have a good time just chatting and laughing and joking about together. But he’s, he teaches consumer psychology at Emory University. He teaches MBAs and all stuff like that. So very clever guy, but also very funny. So we have that interesting combination of having a good laugh, but also learning a lot at the same time. And he comes at it from a very, as you would expect a very academic perspective. And I come at it from a very business practical perspective. And therefore the two things we think is ideal combination.

Gregorio Uglioni 4:09
less than perfect combination because your podcasts the intuitive customer is the best podcast about customer experience is not me telling that but it’s all the audience all the listener that that you have, I am dreaming of achieving such such great targets, but you are doing really a great, great job. Thank you. I love your podcast on Sunday when I go out for jogging, then it’s always the first podcast I’m listening to.

Colin Shaw 4:35
Great, good, good. Well, well done for jogging and well done for listening.

Gregorio Uglioni 4:40
Thank you very much. You mentioned also something beyond philosophy is there since 20 years, and before starting beyond philosophy, you had a really senior role in corporate life. How did you decide to move from corporate corporate life into the philosophy?

Colin Shaw 4:57
It was a very interesting process. Particularly for my wife, because I was earning lots of money in a very safe job. And suddenly you decide to leave it and start on your own, and not know whether the book that you’ve just written is going to end up in a, some of these bargain basement stores is interesting. So the long and short of it is I don’t want to bore people. But my boss had said something to me back in 1989 1998, should I say, which was he wanted me to improve the customer experience. And those days people didn’t know what a customer experience was. So I went away, started thinking about what is a customer experience? How was it mean? How do you go about doing it? Well, you spent sort of three years putting together a program, some things worked, some things didn’t learn from both of them. And then I decided that I thought that customer experience is going to be important. So decided that I should leave and take a gamble, and start beyond philosophy. So it was literally me and another guy at the time. And I have to say, it was probably one of the best decisions that we’ve ever made. But it was a bit daunting at the time, as you can well imagine.

Gregorio Uglioni 6:19
Not like I think that’s that’s that’s a great story that it’s not so easy from the beginning. But now you are playing we discussed about the Champions League earlier. But it’s really, really it’s not only the Champions League League, it’s really the Soccer World Cup, because you’re working everywhere. And it’s really great what what you are doing, and based on that, I would like to understand a bit more about you, and therefore, the question, which values drive you in life?

Colin Shaw 6:48
Interesting question. I think the first one is, family comes first. So I’m a big family, man. And whenever anyone has any problems within the team, and it’s to do with family that I think comes first. I think from a business perspective, there’s one phrase which I use a lot, which is, none of us are as clever as all of us, which, and I’ve do a newsletter on that basis as well, which is sharing other people’s insights. So that’s basically saying, I don’t have all the best ideas. Everybody’s got lots of great ideas. So it’s the combination of those ideas that that give us the power. And the third part, I think, I would say would be, it’s just about challenging. And I like a good debate and a good argument to learn other people’s views, because again, I think if you can learn other people’s views, then you get to a better position. And by learning I mean, it’s a bit like, talked about the podcast, you know, one of the things I enjoy about that is learning from Ryan, all the academic side and then going okay, well, that’s interesting. How do I how do you actually do that at a practical level within a company. And that’s the interesting, interesting bit, so much so that, really, we named the company that way. So beyond philosophy is trying to say, It’s okay, you know, you need a philosophy or strategy or thought, but you’ve got to go beyond it and do something. And it’s in the doing that you get results, just talking about it, you’re not going to get any results. So yeah.

Gregorio Uglioni 8:31
And I think what you’re saying, it totally makes sense, because nowadays, a lot of people are talking a lot about customer experience. But not everybody’s doing it in a proper way. You are mentioning also in your podcast, that the satisfaction of the customer, the level of satisfaction is decreasing and decreasing. Oh,

Colin Shaw 8:48
yeah. It’s incredible. Yeah, I mean, it’s, um, I miss you. These are American figures, obviously. But there’s a thing called the American Customer Satisfaction Index. And it’s now at the lowest point for 17 years. So, so think about that. So all the time that there’s been this focus on customer experience, it’s at the lowest point now you could turn around and say, Ah, well, that’s because of the pandemic. And well, no, it’s not because if you look at their statistics, and we had the guy on the show recently, the guy being the president of the company that does this, he tells you that something like only 30% of organizations between 2010 and 2019, that pre pandemic, improve their customer experience, only 30%. So that means 70% Didn’t and given the focus that’s on it, given the money that’s being poured into it, given the software systems that are being built and sold, you would have thought that that number would be far higher.

Gregorio Uglioni 9:56
Exactly what you’re saying. I think it’s something that we are also facing it To us, it’s Europe. It’s okay. It’s everywhere. And I think what you are also preaching sorry for the word is that something needs to change. And therefore, I would like to speak about customer science. I know you spoke a lot on about customer science on your podcast. And I think this is something really interesting. And to structure structure that in a way that also my audience can can understand that. I start with the question, is there a single silver bullet in customer experience?

Colin Shaw 10:30
Not? Next question. No, there is no silver bullet in customer experience. All there is, is a lot of hard work across many different aspects of it. Unfortunately, people want a silver bullet. And I think that’s part of the problem, to be honest with you. They want a silver bullet, but there isn’t one. There’s a lot of hard work. It’s a bit like the Winston Churchill speech. All I can offer you is blood, sweat and tears. So

Gregorio Uglioni 11:04
no, I really understand that. And therefore, as you are saying, and it was the introduction, could you please define customer science?

Colin Shaw 11:13
Yeah, so let me let me sort of take a step back here, because I think it may be important for your listeners to try to sort of understand where I’m coming from here. The way I’ve been looking at this is, it’s a bit like, if I was to go back to, you know, 1999, when I was thinking of setting up beyond philosophy, and I started to see a few trends emerging. And I started to think, yeah, there’s this thing called Custom experience out there. And not many people know about it. A few people do, but not many people know about it. But I think it’s going to be a big thing. And there are a few sort of telltale signs. And I think what I’m seeing today is are those signs now, back then, the everyone was talking about CRM. CRM was the big change, CRM was going to change the world. They were talking about the fact that CRM programs had not been generating the improvements that they had thought it would. So again, similarities to where customer experiences today. And as we were just talking about, in terms of, you know, only a third of organizations changing their experience. So I’m starting to see that people are starting to get a bit. What’s the word I’m looking for? A bit. This not disingenuous that they’re starting to think that well, maybe customer experience isn’t producing the results. So what else is there? What I’ve seen is that there are, I’ve labeled this customer science. And this is not just me, saying that this phrase, but to be totally honest with you, I don’t care what it’s called. But it’s three things. Okay. It is data. So we get far more data than we ever have done in the past. But and again, I think we’ll go on and talk about this, but the way that the data is being looked at is a challenge, right? So data, the second area is AI. So the ability to obviously build algorithms to be able to predict and that’s an important word, what the customer is doing. Okay. And then the third part, which I think is that the third element has been missing, but it’s starting to come about is behavioral science, okay. Which effectively is understanding why people do what we do. So understanding human nature and understanding that people are, are don’t make logical choices. Despite the fact that we think we do we don’t. Okay, and those three things are starting to come together. Now. It’s a bit like, it’s a bit like the iPhone, right? No one ever said, I want an iPhone. Okay. But what, what Steve Jobs, and I’m not trying to equate myself to Steve Jobs. But what Steve Jobs talked about was, you know, he suddenly saw Well, there’s GPS, you know, there’s, there’s small computers, there’s social media and all that, you know, and those coming together. And that for me, it’s this whole area around data, the fusion of data, AI, and behavioral science now, and let me say, let me be clear, I don’t think that I’m saying, Well, I’m not saying this is going to happen by the end of this year. I’m not even saying it’s going to happen by the end of next year. What All I’m saying is, you will see a growth in this. And if you I look at companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, any of the big tech companies, they’re doing this stuff today, you know, just look at what Amazon do look at the adverts that are placed in front of you. It’s the fusion of all of those things that are coming together. And more and more organizations are going to move into this space, in my view,

Gregorio Uglioni 15:29
then I think you explained that three topics, let’s let’s deep dive one after the other, so that we can understand a bit better. And I think what one thing that you really mentioned that it’s important starting from data, that first big bucket, it’s there are a lot of data. The question is, are we able, can we really understand the data, this data? And how should we understand that data? What I am seeing in the market discussing with other people’s, yes, we wanted to collect data, we put them somewhere, and then in future, we will see what we can do with this data. What’s your view on that?

Colin Shaw 16:04
Well, yeah, I agree. But that’s clearly totally the wrong thing. You know. So I think you need to sort of look at data in a few ways. So first of all, there is data that you as an organization is collecting. And then there is I’m that is about your products and services and, and importantly, how your customers are using those things. But there is also data from outside of your organization about customers. Okay. So just imagine the data that that Google has on you. Okay, you know, that they know, the searches that you’ve made, the type of searches, the way that you know, when you’re searching, what you’re searching for, you know, all of that sort of more behavioral type data. Okay. Now, the problem that I think is there, so, so the data is there, some of it, people are just going well, we’ve got this data, we don’t know how to look at it. What a lot of organizations are clearly doing is they’re looking at the data from the way that they’ve always looked at data, right. And this is sort of then ties into this is where the three things combined, basically, because just looking at data, from a rational, what we would call a rational perspective, is not the right way. Okay? Because when you look at the it’s not rational things that motivate us, we are motivated by emotions, for example, examples. Okay. And therefore, one of the challenges I would give any of your listeners is, well, how much data do you have on how your customer is feeling? Do you know the emotions they are feeling today? Do you know which emotions drive value for you. And that’s a really important phrase, value. In other words, which will increase net promoter, which will increase customer satisfaction, revenue, whatever it is, whatever the organization’s doing. Most organizations haven’t got any information on date on customer emotions. And most organizations don’t really understand why their customers are doing things. So this goes back into the behavioral science piece, which is, you know, I, I think, you know, one of my favorite examples, which is, you know, Disney know, when they asked their customers what they want to eat at a theme park, Disney know that people say they’d like to have an option on a salad. Disney also know that people don’t eat salads at theme parks, they hotdogs and hamburgers. So here’s the interesting bit. You could have a load of data. If you’re Disney, you could have a load of data that tell you that what customers want is salad. Okay, you’ve done research customers say they want salads, but they don’t buy them. Okay. So it’s and that’s a classic example of customers say something. And the irony is, and my second book was on customer centricity. The irony is, is that sometimes you should ignore what your customers tell, you know, I’m trying to be careful with my words here. Ignore what your customers tell you. But look at what they do. Okay? Now, if you’ve got data on what they are doing, okay, that’s the key thing. And then the way that you interpret that through through the lens of behavioral science, in other words, understanding why people do what they do and what motivates them and how they make decisions at a much deeper level, goes back to the podcast. And you know what they’re doing in academia, understanding how people make decisions becomes key. Does that make sense? So yes, there’s lots of data. But I don’t. It is a it’s another interesting one, actually, sorry to go on about this. But I thought this was really interesting. Actually, we actually did a podcast on this a little while ago, a few weeks ago. And if you haven’t listened to it, I recommend you do. It was called the myth of experience. And Ryan had read, read a book called The Myth of experience. And what it talks about is that sometimes we think that we have all of the information that we need to have to make a decision. And the author’s called that a wicked learning environment. So we think we’ve got all the information, but we haven’t got all the information. And yet we make good decisions. And the other side of it is what they what they called a kind of learning environment. Okay. So in other words, you have got all the information. So an example of that would be with data, I’ve got information about what customers are doing, I’ve got information about how they’re feeling. I’ve got information about how I’m going to interpret what they’re doing, because I understand behavioral science. You know, and most people will be listening to this or going, Oh, well, we haven’t got that. But over on the other side, people, there are organizations there that are thinking that they have got all the information, and they haven’t. So they can’t predict what the customers gonna do. Does that does that make sense?

Gregorio Uglioni 21:48
It totally makes sense. And I think, based on what you are saying, and also going to the next topic, behavioral science, you are filling also this peak and rule, idea. And if you could elaborate a bit on that, I think it would be really helpful because you’re linking what you’re saying. Now, with this peak end rule, it makes extremely understandable that customers are not taking this decision in a rational way, as you’re saying.

Colin Shaw 21:48
Sure. So let me try to define behavioral science, first of all, which which basically, behavioral science is effectively psychology. Okay, call it behavioral science, call it Business Economics, call it neuroscience, whatever you want. Yeah. But behavioral science is effectively understanding how people make decisions and understanding that we, as human beings have biases. And we have what are called heuristics, which effectively are shortcuts. Okay, so we, we have a shortcut in decision making. Let me give you an example. And then I’ll come on and talk about peeking. But a shortcut that we have, I’ve just been talking to my wife about this, you know, we’re having some work done around the house. And we will always get three quotes, we always get three quotes on any work we haven’t done, we never go with the most expensive, we never go with the cheapest, we always go for the one in the middle. Now that is a that’s, that is a heuristic that, in other words, a short way of making a decision, okay. And there are literally hundreds of these things that we use. So behavioral sciences, effectively understanding how people behave and why they do things. Now, one of the biggest influences that I find this subject fascinating, and this is probably the thing, that biggest thing I’ve learned in the last 15 years, is the effect upon memory. And this is where the peak end rule comes in. So and this is where I think this is really, really, really fundamental. Right. So and let me let me try and ask you a few questions. So tell me about one of the best restaurants you’ve been to watch one of your favorite restaurants to go to?

Gregorio Uglioni 24:15
Oh, that’s a difficult question. But there is one next next to our home. And if we are going there, my wife and me when we have somebody taking care of our son, and therefore I like to go there.

Colin Shaw 24:29
Right. Okay. Why is it Why do you like going to that restaurant?

Gregorio Uglioni 24:34
It’s because I’ve done with my wife, to be honest.

Colin Shaw 24:37
Okay. Okay, so. So let’s sort of take a step back and think about that. So the first thing is, the when I’m asking you that question, what you’re immediately doing is using your memory. And I’m sure in your mind, a picture of that restaurant came up in your brain, and maybe the last time you went And also what you feel about it. Okay? So the interesting thing here is that, if you think about it, customer loyalty is a function of memory. So, if I didn’t, if we as human beings didn’t have a memory, we couldn’t be loyal to something. Because by definition, to be loyal means you are returning, and you are going back. And by definition, you’re, you know, you’re going to that restaurant because you want to be with the wife and have some time, etc, etc. So customer loyalty is a function of memory. So the next interesting question becomes, well, therefore, if memory is so important, to building a customer loyalty, how are memories formed? Okay. And there’s a guy called Professor Daniel Kahneman, who’s won the Nobel Prize for behavioral economics. And what Kahneman talks about is one of the ways that we, one of the ways that we remember things is through what he calls the peak end rule. Okay, so what’s the peak end rule, the peak end rule is a, it’s basically built on what will you remember is based on the peak emotion that we felt in the experience, and it is based upon the end emotion that we felt in the experience, okay, now, the peak can be positive, or negative, the end can be positive or negative. And this is a classic example for me of theory. And then you turn around and say, That’s really interesting. So yeah, you know, if I said to you, where were you 911, you would remember where you were, you would remember what you’re doing, you would remember how you felt them? Because that’s a memory that is sort of seared into your brain. And that emotion is seared into your brain as well. And therefore, it what it does is it is it makes you think of some customer experience questions. So if people remember, if memories are so important, and people remember the peak, enroll the positive, negative emotion. So where is the peak emotion that my customers are feeling today in my customer journey? So if I’m doing my journey map, where is the peak emotion that my customers are feeling? And that as I said, could be positive? It could be negative? And a probably a, an equally important question is, what emotion? Are they feeling? So if not, are they feeling positive or negative? Is what specific emotion have a feeling? Is it happy? Is it pleased? Is it valued? Is it frustrated? Is it stressed? Is it hurried? What emotion are they feeling? And here’s the killer question if you like, which Emotion drives most value for me. So if I’m a business, and I want to have loyal customers, and I want to evoke memories, emotions in my customers, so they’ve remembered my experience, then which emotions out of all the ones that I’ve mentioned, drive most value, which gives me the biggest return, which increases my revenue the most, which increases my net promoter, the most, etc. And then my third book, the DNA of customer experience, we did two years worth of research with London Business School, to identify the emotions that drive and destroy value. And what we discovered was that there are 20 of them. There are 20 emotions that drive and destroy value for an organization. And therefore, for me, you’ve got to answer those questions. So the peak end rule is part of behavioral science. But what it raises some really interesting strategic and tactical questions, you know, well, peak enroll, therefore, where’s the peak? Where’s the end? What emotions are we evoking? What emotions do we need about and how do we now start to evoke those emotions that we know will drive valley that does that make sense?

Gregorio Uglioni 29:27
Totally. Because what you are saying it’s also extremely important to define the motion that you want to evoke in your customer because this is your to be experienced, that you want to deliver. What I often see in companies is they are doing one trying to do one customer journey, it must be this, this and that and then they go to the next one and they say call something completely different. The thing that I often say is Croesus people saying we need to standardize all the processes, then we want to be standard and The next, the next team is saying we need to personalize everything is it’s not possible because if you’re standardizing there, the customer field, the standard, they are going to do in a way, and they cannot be treated, then super personalized in another journey, because at the end, it’s part of the brand promise what you’re offering to your customer?

Colin Shaw 30:19
Yes, no, no, absolutely. And and, you know, you’re now into segmentation as well, because, you know, customers need to be treated differently. And therefore, this is where data comes in. Okay. Because how do you know what the segmentation is unless you’ve got the data to segment people? And therefore, how were you segmenting customers? And therefore, for me, the best form of segmentation is behavioral segmentation. So it’s an irrelevance, you know, you don’t just look at my age and everything else, you look at what I do, again, going back to what I’m doing, and therefore you can then design an experience to, to meet that to evoke the emotion that you then get.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:08
And I think that the last part of this triangle is artificial intelligence. And this is something that you need, and will will help us in future. Could you please comment a bit on that?

Colin Shaw 31:19
Yeah. So yeah, so AI, is obviously extremely powerful. Okay. And I think he’s going to transform, I hope he’s going to transform customer experiences. And I’ve always loved technology. But there’s some challenges with it. One of the challenges with we were talking to, we did a podcast the other day, where the chap use the phrase that was, AI is just opinions written in code. And I thought myself, yeah, totally, that’s a great phrase. So the problem that you’ve got with AI is that whoever is writing the AI, has biases. Okay. And those biases are being baked in to the construction of the AI. The other concern that I have is that, again, are the AI systems being built? Understanding that customers have emotions? Are they being built? Understanding that you should be looking at the through the lens of behavioral science? And the answers to both those questions is mainly none. Okay. Again, some of the more advanced organizations, the apples, the Amazons, the Googles of this world, are absolutely doing those things, okay. But the majority of deployment of AI at the moment, is basically just rationally based, and they are effectively going. And here’s my other concern about AI, is that, you know, it’s done to save cost, rather than to improve the experience. And, you know, history shows that that’s always the case. But having said all the problems, there’s a massive opportunity, because you can personalize interactions. If you’ve got the data, you’ve constructed the data in the right way. If you’ve looked at things through the lens of behavioral science, now you can construct your AI to predict what the customer is going to do, okay? And not only predict what they’re going to do, predict how they are going to feel. Okay? So example I always use is that, you know, when I walk home at night, and I walk into my front room, and I shout hello to Lorraine, my wife, within a one word response, I can tell you how Lorraine is feeling. I can tell you, she’s feeling happy, I can tell you she feeling sad. I can tell you what if she’s feeling sad, or annoyed with me for some reason, I can tell you what I shouldn’t do to make it worse. And I also can tell you the things I should do to make it better. Okay. So, you know, now replace me with a with AI. And now you’ve got something that understands all those things, understands the sentiment of what customers is are saying or what they’re typing or what’s written in social media or you know, text analytics or bla bla bla bla bla, and looking at putting that intelligence that emotional intelligence behind that interaction, now you can start to deliver and this is where I think the battleground will be, is in, in in a predicting a proactive customer experience. So we will move to, rather than being reactive to customer demands, we will be proactive to customer demand only the other day, just a very small example. You know, my Apple Watch came up to me and pinged me and said, We you normally do this type of thing at this time of the day? Do you want us to set up a widget to do that? And I thought, wow, it’s looked at my behavior. And it is suggesting an action to improve the quality of life, blah, blah, blah, blah, by doing this, and I thought that’s a good example of something I haven’t requested him to do. But he’s actually very helpful to me.

Gregorio Uglioni 35:44
Yeah. Yes. And I think you mentioned that several times. And to conclude this, this part of the discussion, you mentioned at least two times, Apple One time, I found one time, Steve Job, I think we know that you are an apple sent I am unfortunately, which emotions, because emotions are extremely important. We learned today, which emotion emotions evoke Apple for you?

Colin Shaw 36:08
Oh, yeah, it’s a good question. I feel, I feel that one of the things that Apple provide me is, it’s a bit like, again, if you go into sort of that whole behavioral science, I feel like I’m a bit of a tribe. Okay, so when I go into an Apple Store, there’s lots of other people there that love Apple, okay, I feel that Apple were the sort of the cutting edge of things. So that whole area around feeling innovation, and, and all those things, I think the the leads, they’ve taken on privacy is really good and important. And the lead they’ve taken on health is really good. And really important. So despite the fact there will, you know, a big technology company that I’m sure has got loads of information on me, I feel safe with them. I don’t feel safe with Facebook, for an example. And, you know, whenever I interact with them, I feel they I feel valued, I feel they spend time with me, I don’t think they’re trying to convince me to use their products and services, you know, in all those, all those things. So I’ve always I do bang on about a lot of Apple. So

Gregorio Uglioni 37:19
thank you very much. You are, we spoke already about the future of customer experience, its customer science. But now we close our eyes for two seconds. And we are in 10 years from now, what we are discussing about,

Colin Shaw 37:33
I think what we’re discussing is customer science. So I think what we’re discussing is how we’re building proactive experiences. And I think that customer science is just, we just like with, so let me take a step back. I’m not saying CRM went away, CRM doesn’t go away, I’m not saying customer experience goes away, it won’t go away. What I’m saying is, it becomes business as normal. And there is a new initiative. And that new initiative will be customer science, people will still be doing customer experience, they will still be customer experience teams, but they won’t be the focus on it, it will be absorbed into our everyday use. I think in 10 years time, we’ll be talking about how we are using AI, how we are, you know, I won’t be sitting there going, Hey, this is really interesting Google peak enroll, because everybody will know it. You know, all those types of things, all the things I was talking about 20 years ago, when people were going on, that’s something interesting. You know, that is now I don’t talk about journey maps, because everyone knows about journey maps, you know, that type of thing.

Gregorio Uglioni 38:40
Thank you very much. We are coming to an end of this game. We are in the last five minutes or three minutes of the game. Let’s call some additional goals together with call into three question for you. Is there a book that you would suggest to the audience because it helps you during your career or during your private life?

Colin Shaw 38:59
Yeah, there’s one that actually made me leave corporate life which I always think is good, or what? Who Moved My Cheese? I don’t know if you ever read it. But it’s a very good book, Who Moved My Cheese which makes you think about life, what you’re doing and how to go about it. And one of the key questions it asked that I thought was great was what would you do if you weren’t scared? And so if you didn’t have a big salary and everything else, what would you do? And my answer was set up beyond philosophy so that’s a better good personal but there’s a custom experience book there’s a book called alchemy alchemy Lee by the name now just trying to look great. I can’t remember his name now. Are Rory Sutherland better Rory Sutherland alchemy which looks at Game practical examples of this whole area around behavioral science.

Gregorio Uglioni 40:04
Thank you very much. And if somebody would like to contact you what’s the best way?

Colin Shaw 40:08
The best way is either to go onto our website, which is beyond philosophy.com. It’s beyond philosophy.com. And go to contact us, or just go onto LinkedIn, I am a LinkedIn influencer are right there regularly. So drop me a message on on LinkedIn.

Gregorio Uglioni 40:31
Thank you very much. I will add some information because you have an outstanding newsletter that it’s important to mention your seven books, you mentioned three or four or four of them. In the in these episodes, they will be all on the show notes, but something that I would hear from you, it’s where can we find your podcast.

Colin Shaw 40:50
So the podcast, just search for the intuitive customer, the intuitive customer podcast, just search for it wherever you find your podcasts, and you’ll find it there. So Apple Stitcher, Spotify, on our website. Anyway,

Gregorio Uglioni 41:08
thank you very much. And I really say it’s worth it, please subscribe to this podcast, because it’s really the best. That’s my personal view. And therefore I invited you also for this episode number 100. Because I really enjoy listening to what you’re discussing with Professor Ryan and wisdom. It’s it’s outstanding. And now we’re coming to the last question is Colin Shaw, golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new that you would leave to the audience?

Colin Shaw 41:34
Yeah, I would really suggest that you look into this whole area of memory. I’ve even thought about writing another book on it. We have actually just doing a mini series on the podcast about memory. So but really look into this whole area of memory. Because when you think about it, we are affected in our decision making, by what we remember. And I really don’t think there are enough people out there thinking about the effects of your memory and how that influences your behavior, and what you’re doing and stuff like that. So really take a look at the whole area of memory.

Gregorio Uglioni 42:16
Thank you very much, Colin, it was a great pleasure to have you on the customer, customer experience goalkeeper podcast. Thank you very much for your time. It was a pleasure.

Colin Shaw 42:26
Thank you very much and well done on the 100th episode. Really, really good news.

Gregorio Uglioni 42:31
Thank you very much. Colin in please stay with me; to the audience: It’s everything. Thank you very much. If you have feedback, please let me know or let Colin know. We are happy to have a discussion and we always are happy to get feedback. Thank you very much.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

 ⚽️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ The CX Goalkeeper Podcast ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⚽️ 

👍 Do you like it?

Please tell 2 friends, colleagues or family members about the CX Goalkeeper Podcast. Only with your support I can continue share amazing discussions! 

PLEASE 🙏 don’t forget to

✅ subscribe it 

📹 as a Webcast you can subscribe it on YouTube 

THANK YOU – feedback always welcome, please DM me!

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The CXWG2020 experience & “The Customer Experience Playbook” with Jonathan Daniels – E1

Episode released on: 27. December 2020

The CXWG2020 & "The Customer Experience Playbook" with Jonathan Daniels – S1E1 Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Jonathan Daniels

LinkedIn Headline: Leading Customer Centric Transformations.

Highlights:

  • Jonathan speaks about his great book THE CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE PLAYBOOK and his experience as a Captain at the Customer Experience World Games 2020

and much more

Jonathan’s Contact Details:

Guest’s Golden Nuggets:

  • Definitely, I have packed all my thoughts, insights, etc, into the book, The Customer Experience Playbook. It is available on Amazon, either as a physical copy or through Kindle. I really encourage you to have a look at the book is packed – full of information.

I have packed all my thoughts, insights, into my book: “The Customer Experience Playbook”. I really encourage you to have a look at it. It’s packed, full of information. @cxcentricglobal on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:04
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much today I’m speaking with Jonathan. Very happy and welcome to this first discussion about customer experience. Jonathan, you are extremely active in the community in the community of customer experience. You are working on customer experience frameworks, you wrote a book, you have CX Brussels. Can you please elaborate a bit what you are doing?

Jonathan Daniels 0:29
Yeah, Gregorio, really thank you for having me first. And yeah, I’m just doing a lot to promote customer experience and customer centricity. Because I’ve seen the power it can have to really grow businesses. So yes, CX Brussels is a networking platform. In Belgium, we support customer experience professionals, and other professionals from it marketing sales come in and around Belgium, support them to share, to grow their to grow and advance their careers. So that’s what we do. Also, our recently have finished my latest creation, the customer experience playbook that’s here. Not sure if you can see it very well. Yes, so this is with the framework, around implementing customer experience governance, what meetings, what roles you need to have, what sort of documents you should be filling out how often you should have these meetings. And it also talks about leading customer centric transformations. It’s got a four step process in there called icon. So yeah, that’s just a bit about me. Very busy, very active. I’m just looking to promote customer experience as much as possible.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:49
Thank you, Jonathan. That’s great. Is my interpretation correct that you are linking your work with your passion?

Jonathan Daniels 1:56
100% 100%. You know, I mean, my passion or spend some time last year sitting down and saying, what do I really care about my three values, creativity, challenging traditions, and the third one is impacting lives. So 100%, with customer experience, and customer centricity, it fits right in with my values.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:20
Thank you very much, Jonathan. I think we have to first tweetable moments with the fear topics that you mentioned, thank you very much. Oh, can you balance all the working together with family and what you’re doing? And with perhaps you’re also obvious?

Jonathan Daniels 2:36
Yeah, this is very difficult, you know, I have to say, I think obviously, family comes first. So anything that needs to be done with the family comes first. And that gets planned in, that’s set in stone. And then you just have to find ways of being efficient, you know. So for instance, with the book, I was traveling to one of my clients every day, it was, say, a 45 minute train journey. And I will just write the book on the train wreck do a lot of reading on the train. So you look for ways of being efficient and using your time wisely. But yeah, things like family, they come first. And that’s just the way it is. It’s good to have support and family, you know, you can help push and who understand the work that you need to put in and stuff like that. So I appreciate I’ve got really good family around me, that can help.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:31
Great, thank you, Jonathan. I think this is really important to find that balance between what we are doing, and also our families. But let’s come to the main topic of today. For me, you are the captain. And why I’m saying that, because we participated together to the first customer experience war games organized by limetropy. And perhaps could you give some information out? How did it started what you were doing, and why you did it?

Jonathan Daniels 4:02
Yeah, definitely. So are connected with Christopher, who had sort of lost entropy, and who, who headed up the customer experience well, games. And yeah, he sort of contacted me, and we were talking about other sorts of sorts of collaborations. And, yeah, it was just in sort of March, April time he mentioned though, would you like to capture one of the teams, and he explained to me what it was about, and I can see that there was so many, it was going to be such a good thing, you know, a good thing because what we were doing, we were looking at ways of improving experiences. But we’re focusing on good causes, not charitable causes. Small businesses who have just started out, you know, you could see there was a lot of human sides of it, so I was really keen to get involved. And yeah, it was such a great experience I have to say. I think for me Ah, the probably the biggest thing was, first of all, the fact that we were impacting people’s lives. But also, on our side, the team side, we really created a good team. And even though the games are finished, we’re still in contact with each other, still supporting each other, still helping each other. So yeah, I think that’s been a great thing. So really thank you to to the launch up team for for putting this together.

Gregorio Uglioni 5:30
Thank you very much, Jonathan. I fully agree. I was participated as a member of Jonathan’s team, and it was really great to be there. And to work for charity, purpose, supporting SMEs, SMEs, or also feminists having troubles. Are you the only one capitals or were the other capitans?

Jonathan Daniels 5:50
Yeah, there were other captains we had. Obviously, James, the Rockstar, we had Adrian, the CX punk we had. Wow, not CX punk. But yeah, author of some punk CX, we had the Heid as well. And then we also had Sharon, there was a few other captains. And each Captain sort of led their teams a bit differently, use different ways to communicate, and came up with some some really great and different sort of solutions to the problem. So it’s been really enjoyable to see the difference, you know, in how we approach the same problem and the same challenge. Sorry, I don’t know. Gregorio. I don’t know, if I missed that one of the captains, I didn’t have the list of them here.

Gregorio Uglioni 6:48
No problem. I think at the end, we can mention all the captains because I think it was really a great customer experience, expert cruise, we had the best of the best in in the different teams. And I was also very happy to participate. Perhaps Jonathan, could you please elaborate? What really happened to you during this five challenges that we worked on? How did you structure the work? What were the challenges? And what was the result? It were it was required delivery?

Jonathan Daniels 7:17
Yeah, definitely. So yeah, at the start of the challenge the games, it was interesting, because at the start, you never really know how interactive or how active people are going to be. So at the start is the case of connecting with people trying to find out if they’re just being nice, and they’re gonna say, Yeah, we want to help. But then, in the end, they cannot commit time at the start is like this, just really testing the waters. But then after, once you get into it, you start with, we started with about four or five people in the team who were very active. And then it just kept growing and growing. People were like, Okay, we’re, I was a bit busy last week, now I have more time. And yeah, it started getting better and better. And for me, it’s all about giving people a voice, giving people people the opportunity to say what they think. And yeah, just to be transparent and open and honest. So that’s what we tried to promote. And that’s what we did. I wasn’t really a prescriptive captain, I was just sort of facilitating, you know, we had really good people on the team. And everyone sort of came up with their own suggestions and ideas. For instance, we were using mural, and that was through alien. So mural is a platform for helping mapping out all the journeys and carrying out all the sort of brainstorming activities where everyone can share their screens and see all the information that was really good. And also, there’s just loads of ways that we became more efficient. So things like filling out the end template with work back from filling it out, instead of sort of coming up with lots of ideas and then having to cherry pick. And then things like even writing things up. We had people who basically volunteered and said, Okay, I’ll write it up. And someone else would say, Okay, I will check it once it’s written, basically everyone, because everything was open, anyone who wanted to do something, they had the opportunity and, and that’s what they did. So I was lucky to have a good team, even with you, Gregorio you know, there was times where me even I was, I was not even pulling my weight. You know, as a as the captain. I was, I wasn’t putting them away. I was, I was like, a bit busy on certain weeks and you stepped up yourself. You said, Oh, Jonathan, let me help you out. Let’s try this. Let’s try that. Let me push it forward. So really, it was lovely to see and that’s what it is to be a real team. is for, you know, it’s not about the titles, it’s just about, okay, let’s work together to get a good result, you know. And yeah, really excited and really happy to have been involved in this in this project.

Gregorio Uglioni 10:13
Thank you, Jonathan for the great explanation. I think also from my point of view, we learned quite a lot. And and if we speak about the challenges we were working on, like supporting cat coffee, how to improve the experience out to get back people buying stuff, and looking at the cats and looking for the cats, it was really great to work together. For me, one of the most interesting things was that we went through this process, forming norming storming extremely quickly. After a few minutes, we were able already to create content to prepare some strategy, or to support this cat cafe, or our to find a way to get money for the small child that needs money for a surgery or something like that. I think this was really, really important. And all the ideas coming from the different participants, somebody more specific from marketing, somebody working more on digitalization, somebody leading the team, it was really great, how we supported each other. And I think the next question is, the team organized itself quite well, because we were also during the lockdown. And sometimes we had also some additional free time, or we were at home, and then we were able to work together. What’s your view on this topic?

Jonathan Daniels 11:36
Yeah, it was tricky. Because in a lockdown situation, dealing with the pandemic, you don’t know, how people have been affected, you know, some might have even been affected physically or, you know, could have actually had Corona or family members and stuff like this. So you have to get the balance, right. So for us, what we did is we just blocked out the calendars, you know, so we said, Okay, on Tuesday at 5pm, or whichever time, this is a time, we’re gonna work on this, and we just blocked the calendars. And then whoever managed to attend with, you know, we just push along with them and just be as open and transparent way as possible about the task and, and just ask for their feedback. And then we do things like making sure that all the information is available to the people who couldn’t attend, still giving them a chance to participate via email. And, and people did you know, people say, Okay, we couldn’t make the meeting, but then they were still able to send some really excellent points through email. And then also, we had new players who sort of joined each week, because you know, some people heard about the games halfway through. And it’s just a case of giving them a good welcome. And just letting them know, what’s the structure that we work on. So just basically having a good structure. If you have a good structure, the team eventually gets into good rhythm, and this sort of clear on on the way we work. So that seems to work well for us. What do you think we go?

Gregorio Uglioni 13:09
Yes, I fully agree with you. And I think we were really very supportive. If somebody was not able to prepare some something, somebody else stepped in and helped him. I think we had really a great team. CX ambassadors. Really cool team. Thank you, Jonathan. Perhaps, let’s go to the next question. What are the three main things that you learned during this customer experience war games?

Jonathan Daniels 13:34
Okay, the first one for me was definitely the importance of purpose, or think that the world games really helped support people in a very difficult time, support, businesses support charities. And, you know, it was clear that the reason why we’re doing this was for a good cause. And this meant that people who got involved are really, really passionate, actually. And we’re really happy to help very engaged. So I think it just sort of how like brought home the point, that when you work for something with a clear purpose, it becomes easy to get people to rally around the idea. That’s the first one. The second one was just how competitive people are. People are so competitive, you know? Because it was no, because it’s a competition. It was quite interesting to see sometimes we didn’t win any. I’m not sure if you can hear this wind, by the way. So I was gonna say, yeah, it’s quite interesting to see how competitive people are. It was framed as a competition. And I remember sometimes in a team where we’d have meetings after not winning the last challenge, and the morale was so low. I’m saying Come on, guys. You know, we’re here. We’re just giving our best it’s okay. But yeah, some people got really sad halfway through With the winning, so it’s quite interesting just reminds me how genuinely competitive people can be. So that’s another thing that I learned. The third is, I think I’ll definitely say that I’m better at customer experience now, you know, so lots of different ideas on how to map journeys, what to think about when you’re designing new experiences, talking a lot about customer experience strategy, and basically just being able to speak and spend time with so many good professionals even like yourself regarding, especially with things like gamification, etc. I’d have to say, I’ve just learned so much some better customer experience now than I was a few months ago.

Gregorio Uglioni 15:43
Thank you very much not. And I think this, I can really share what you are saying. It was great time, we learned quite a lot, and very, very happy that you were our captains because you have a massive new hour and customer experience. Perhaps also for for the audience. If somebody would like to talk with you to be in contact with you. How is it possible?

Jonathan Daniels 16:04
Yeah, I think just connect with me on LinkedIn. Jonathan Daniels, that’s the easiest way. Also on different social medias, but probably stick to LinkedIn is the easiest.

Gregorio Uglioni 16:17
Okay, perfect. Thank you, Jonathan. They yes or no questions? Will you participate again to the customer experience wargames?

Jonathan Daniels 16:24
Yes. 100%.

Gregorio Uglioni 16:28
Thank you, and I will share exactly this idea.

Jonathan Daniels 16:32
Okay. Yeah, that’s fine. That’s fine. Sorry. I just, I was about to say something. And I realize I shouldn’t say Yeah, so I will just say yes. 100%.

Gregorio Uglioni 16:42
Thank you, Jonathan. I think it’s important that we have the discussion. And even if it’s not everything clear that people will understand what we are explaining. Thank you very much. And perhaps the last question, do you have the last thought idea, insight that you want to share with the audience with the people hearing and looking at this video deserves more webinar?

Jonathan Daniels 17:05
Yeah, definitely have packed all my thoughts, insights, etc, into the book, the customer experience playbook. So this is available on Amazon, either as a physical copy or through Kindle. So yeah, I really encourage you to have a look at the book is packed full of information.

Gregorio Uglioni 17:27
Thank you very much, Jonathan. And I think we are coming to the end, I will really buy your book because I am expecting quite a lot from these books. Therefore, you will have the first person buying it. It’s me where he had to get it. Thank you very much. And to the audience, thank you very much for yielding to us to getting our insight on the customer experience war games organized by line trophy. Really, really great experience. And thank you, Jonathan, to sharing your experience from your garden. Sorry, to the people that there was some wind in background, but it’s really great to see that you are in your garden, and you’re enjoying your vacation. Thank you very much for your time, Jonathan. Thank you.

Jonathan Daniels 18:09
Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate that.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 ⚽️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ The CX Goalkeeper Podcast ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⚽️ 

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The Big Miss – How Businesses overlook the value of emotions  with Zhecho Dobrev – E99

Episode released on: 07. November 2022

The Big Miss – How Businesses overlook the value of emotions  with Zhecho Dobrev Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Zhecho Dobrev

LinkedIn Headline: Author | Customer Experience and Behavior Science Consultant & Trainer

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:37 Zhecho’s introduction
  • 01:56 His values
  • 04:16 Where does the idea of writing such a book come from?
  • 07:39 why did you decide to write about emotions?
  • 09:51 The emotional signature
  • 16:41 Where should companies start if they need to care about emotions?
  • 18:51 Restructuring surveys to cover also emotions
  • 21:37 What should business do from a strategical point of view?
  • 22:19 Seven business practices for an emotional connection
  • 23:02 The most remarkable example
  • 25:27 Customer Science
  • 29:29 The future of Customer Experience
  • 31:37 Zhecho book suggestion
  • 32:21 His contact details
  • 32:55 Zhecho’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Zhecho shared these slides for your reference:

Zhecho’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath

Guest’s Golden Nuggets:

  • “Customers don’t think how they feel. They don’t say what they think, and they don’t do what they say. So, I think if you have that in mind in business, and not take everything for granted, from what customers say, I think there’s a lot of things you can do and achieve success.”

Zhecho’s book:

Customers don’t think how they feel. They don’t say what they think, and they don’t do what they say. If you have that in mind in business, … , I think there’s a lot of things you can do and achieve success. @zhechodobrev on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 00:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast, your host, Gregorio Uglioni, will have small discussions with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope you will enjoy the next episode, ladies and gentleman today, it’s really, really a big pleasure because I have Zhecho Dobrev together with me. Hi Zhecho, how are you?

Zhecho Dobrev 00:27
Hi, Gregorio. Thank you. I’m very good. I’m very happy to be with you. And this is football fan. I’m super excited.

Gregorio Uglioni 00:37
Thank you very much. And we are going to discuss about the big Miss i We will explain what it is exactly. But you wrote an outstanding book. And I think it’s really important to share that, for the people watching the video, and he will short the book. And for the others listening to the podcast, you will find all the information related to this book in the show notes. And it’s really worth it to buy it. But I think it’s let’s deep dive into the topic and then you can really evaluate if it makes sense. I am sure it’s worth it. Before we start discussing about the book, and Zhecho, could you please introduce yourself?

Zhecho Dobrev 01:15
Hi, everyone. So I really dedicated my almost whole professional career to to customer experience. I started in 2009, for instance analysis and then consultants. And so the principal consultant, so on with a company called Beyond philosophy, which is one of the first solely dedicated to customer experience consultancies, and yet 13 years down the road, have been a lot of projects, a lot of a lot of programs. And then I thought, now it’s a good time to write everything in the book.

Gregorio Uglioni 01:56
I think that’s totally makes sense. Thank you very much for sharing that. And also for transparency reason, Colin Shaw was on my episode 100. And now it’s time to discuss about the book and I really like to have this continuously connection with different companies, and seeing the different views also coming from from from the same from the same company. Perhaps before we start discussing into discussing about your book, which values drive human life.

Zhecho Dobrev 02:25
Well, I found an interesting part, an interesting piece in in a book, I think it was by Dan and Chip Heath called defining moments. And they talk about research from Professor Harry Reese, who was looking at the different literature for, for personal relationships. And there was something very interesting there so and what and he was looking for this like, well, what makes some because some personal relationship with your loved ones endure while others fail. And he called the thing perceived partner responsiveness. So So essentially, it comes down to this, do we perceive that our partner or our loved ones are responsive to us, and responsiveness was coming down to three things, understanding. So understanding our beliefs, values, and so on, understanding call them validation. So kind of like being you know, showing that we really care for this person, the last one was caring. And I think those are, when I did my research for the book, and I guess we talk about that we found very much the same thing there are, are the drivers of customer experience. So essentially, what makes our personal relationships endure are the same things, pretty much the same things that make customer relationship endure. So I think those are universal things being responsive to our partners, showing that we understand them, and that we care for them or this is these are some universal truths.

Gregorio Uglioni 04:16
Thank you. And I think that’s that’s totally make sense. And basically, perhaps also to introduce the book, the big myth, our organization overlook the value of emotions. Where does the idea of writing such a book come from?

Zhecho Dobrev 04:30
Well, that’s funny actually. So you know, when the pandemic hit that was literally stayed outside on the on the porch, and, you know, we’re consultants so all our projects were briefly stopped until the organization’s figure out how to work remotely and and things like that, the important stuff and and then I was sitting out and thinking and as you mentioned, Colin has been on your show, he always told that we are sitting on this Goldmine that we will over these 13 years. The type In the company, and before that, we’ve gathered this large database, where we have data about the aspects of the experience, data about customer emotions and data about customer attitudes and behavior toward towards organization like likelihood to recommend likelihood to purchase again and things like that. And, and we always saw how to analyze it, but it was like so big that we never could get our heads around how to go about that. And then when COVID hidden, I was sitting outside. One thing I was thinking is like, I think that organizations, everyone pretty much does journey mapping. But I think most people are doing journey mapping a little bit wrong, or they’re missing a big trick. You see, like most organizations, I told, like looking and we’ve done this journey mapping with lots of organizations, we’ve been doing pretty much like this. So we have the purchasing experience, and the servicing experience. So the Infinity lifecycle, so have you started with the brand, then awareness, purchasing experience getting on board, using the product or service, billing campaign money, you get some communications emails from organizations, you call their contact center, or customer support, and, and things like that. And so most organizations are thinking, again, we’ve been doing this or focusing on like, what is the customer doing? Like first step, second step, third step that and so I thought, Well, I think we have data for about aspects that fit in all those journey, poor journey, touchpoint categories. So which of those journey touchpoint categories is actually the most important? And how do customer relationships fare against those things? You see, because I think one of the things that people are missing is like, they’re focusing on what the customer doing, and not like, well, let’s look at this journey. And what can we do in the different moments to create this feeling of a relationship? Because I feel that most organizations are overlooking that is, for example, one example, I was talking with customers of a bank. And the customer said, Oh, I’ve been with this bank for 12 years, how could they go to this other bank and ask for a loan there? And say, Oh, well, that’s interesting, you know, this customer is feeling a relationship, but how does the bank? How does the bank does the bank show any kind of the de feu this sort of the relationship with this customer? So that was one of part of my thinking, at the beginning, so then I did the research and said to call him, well, let’s do a white paper. And he said, Well, you’ve written so much, why don’t you write a book, and then

Gregorio Uglioni 07:39
we wrote the book. I think that was a great idea from Colin writing a book, because research paper, it’s a good, but not a lot of people would read that. And now it’s your book, it’s out for everybody to read that. And why did you decide to write about emotions?

Zhecho Dobrev 07:59
Yes, well, because again, the research show that actually emotion, so I told you that first I was thinking about relationships. And we had this touch point about customer relationship that included some emotions like, like, feeling cared for as a person. This the organization is trustworthy, responsive respects me and other things. And we had a traditional touch points. And what we found is that actually, this, the this emotional attachment is we call it the feeling of relationship. And those are the emotional aspects is the biggest driver of value compared to the traditional touchpoints, like product, brand, advertising, communications, customer service, and so on. And again, this confirms something that we have found with lots of other organizations. But the reason I call I wrote about emotion, I call it the big miss is because organizations by and large, they don’t focus on the emotions, they don’t do research on emotions, they don’t have a strategy around emotions. By and large, they don’t train train people how to vote specific emotions. And in my 13 years, as a consultant, there has been pretty much only like one organization that we walked in. And they showed us their research and say, we found that these are the key emotions in our experience. And we’re measuring those, there was one or two other organizations that are measuring something like customer relationships and interesting ways to measure customer relationships. And so um, but like, of all these organizations, there’s been like one or two organizations that haven’t worked with us that is measuring emotion. That’s why I think it’s a big miss because it’s the biggest driver of value. And yet people don’t have a strategy and don’t know how to really approach that is, you know, is a science and strategy.

Gregorio Uglioni 09:51
What you said earlier, is you evaluated a lot of data that you have created throughout the years at beyond philosophy And if I understand why you have an approach or discipline that you will define the emotional signature, what is what what is exactly?

Zhecho Dobrev 10:08
Sure? Well, so basically, this is our customer research to quantify that we find what really drives value. So the difference between and we can distinguish between what people say they want, and what actually drives value. And some of the unique things, there’s like a, we take emotions into account. And again, our research shows, if you don’t take emotions into account, one thing, you don’t get the real picture of the railroad, because we know customers have emotions, and to essentially are missing like 50% of the picture. So you’re allocating resources to things that may be not not as important by the drivers. And then the second thing is we can find, there’s like we say, a big difference between what people say they want to what actually drives value. So let me give you some examples. We did research with patients. In Houston, actually, with a hospital system there. And patient would say we want to spend more time with a doctor. Okay? Now, if you if you’re the Customer Experience Manager, you go to the CFO and say, Hey, finance, Mr. finance guy, we need to employ more doctors or, or increase the time people spent with a doctor, you probably lose your job either on that same meeting, or a few months later, because actually, that doesn’t increase customer satisfaction at all, what we found is people don’t want more meantime with a doctor, but more quality time. So instead of the doctor, spending the time, you know, filling sheets on the computer and things like that, they want to feel listened to them acknowledge their concerns, show that they tried to get to know to them as person stuff, anticipate their needs, respect them, respect their time, things like that. So it was about the quality of the time, not more time, similar things with customers of large, worldwide famous charge card, particularly with the premium customers, they will say we want this car to be more accepted. Okay, it makes sense. Because if the card is not accepted in stores, it’s not very useful. But what we found is those people have been their customer for 2025 years, at least, interviewed people. And every now they will say, Oh, but we don’t want them to book us in a nice restaurant, we want them to tell us which is which are the trendy restaurants in Barcelona and book as a table with the in the back and you or with a good view, blah, blah, blah. So reading between the lines and our research show that essentially is the feeling of prestige that drives the most valuable people don’t say we want prestige, people say something about the product. Similarly, insurance customers, telecom customers would say the most important thing is the network. Because you know, without the network, your phone is not very useful. But again, people say we want product, but actually oftentimes, they are not really aware of the real drivers to their attitudes and behaviors towards the brand. And like you asked about motional signature with that we can find those emotional and subconscious drivers of their attitudes and behavior towards organizations.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:29
I think you’re touching my emotions, because you did you shared to Example one about in hospital, I am working in an hospital, and therefore I really understand what you’re saying. And that’s what we are also trying to explain. And you mentioned, charge cards charge cards. That’s American Express, it’s quite clear, because I was working for joint venture of American Express. And therefore I really understand that the feeling of being member of American Express the link to this brand, it’s extremely important for customer and what you shared. It was really also feedback that we got from customers directly that they wanted to give, they didn’t want to give back to car because of this member since and one guy moved from a corporate card into an individual card. And he wanted also to have the member since that yet on the corporate card. It was not possible. But and for he was really struggling. And this there were a lot of negative emotions involved until we found the solution for him. And therefore he It totally makes sense and I can can understand that.

Zhecho Dobrev 14:38
This member since I always thought like the first time we were so that I felt how powerful it is. It’s so simple, but this is about the relationship, you know, for people with the proof of that relationship and they want to be recognized for that relationship. So it’s really a question of other organizations how they can find a way to replicate replicate this, let me actually give you an example. In our nowadays everyone is moving digital transformation and stuff like that. So just like last year, we’re working with a company in Canada, b2b but also b2c company. And with energy, and, and before commercial customers used to order through the local office, okay, but then they move those order into a one 800, central central number. And I was reading the comments of our survey and like one, one customer literally said, it’s not that those are that guy is a bad reception is he just doesn’t know our error, like, we have to repeatedly give instructions to the drivers. But that made me think. And so people were like, really unhappy with this, but it made me realize that what they had done is also take away that feeling of a relationship. So before you can imagine you are this owner, and you go to all their heating oil. And and you go to the office, you know, the office guys, you chit chat, they know you, you have all this relationship, and now they’ve taken all that relationship away, you’re calling a one 800 Number and no one knows you, or knows anything, even how to send the the instructions for rural to for the drivers of these trucks to go to some rural area in Canada. And suddenly this whole relationship is gone. So and so I think essentially, it’s like organizations have to think now how can we use technology to create these feelings for relationship?

Gregorio Uglioni 16:41
Thank you very much. I think what what you’re saying is, it totally makes sense. And you’re sharing a lot of great example, and I’m sure the audience will appreciate that. But basically what yours you shared at the beginning, it’s few companies are doing that in the right way. You said only one that you saw in your career? Where should companies start if they need to care about emotions?

Zhecho Dobrev 17:03
Sure. That’s a good question. So I think the first thing they need to realize is is to is to start to do research that gets to those unconscious drivers of behavior, because you know, most of our behavior is driven by our unconscious and emotions are typically functioning around there. So try to find the real drivers of customer behavior, taking emotions into account. So that’s that’s one thing. Second is, it’s a very simple question. But what is the experience you want to deliver to customers? And how do you want your customers to feel now defining what emotions you want customers to view and ideally, that will be based on research because like, what emotions make people buy, or what emotions are important that the purchasing experience versus the retention or renewing, renewing experience. So defining those and then thinking, Well, what can we do to evoke those on a consistent basis is very important. And then when you do that, then that takes you to the culture part, which is very important for if you don’t want this to be driven by one or two people in your organization, you need the back office people and the front office to be working toward the same vision. So if you have a defined experience, and define how you want customers to feel, then you can communicate and equip people with sort of the vision and the skills to think about well in their roles, how are they affecting customer experience? And how are they working towards the same vision that you want to go towards customers feeling that? So I think those are some practical things.

Gregorio Uglioni 18:51
And I think it it’s really interesting, but basically, most of the companies are doing surveys that are not related to emotion, that it mean, they don’t do they need to restructure the surveys or what what’s the what’s your approach?

Zhecho Dobrev 19:07
Yeah, well, yeah, same thing. So we just recently were talking to some people and you know, we mentioned about emotions and we said, Well, do you measure emotion? And they said, Yes. I was a little bit surprised. Like I said, there’s only like a few companies. So I said, well, so you’re telling me that you have you are measuring and you have data on to what extent people feel trust towards you cared for value towards you? Oh, no, not that kind of data. So I think maybe they say they do LPS or something but like, Okay, you do MPs fine, good, but like what are the drivers of MPs and again, oftentimes, those like we say, are emotional aspects. So do you know whether you know feeling appreciated or respected or listened to or understands and, and like what creates those emotions? So which aspects of your experience drive those emotions that in turn Positive emotions affect value and negative emotions destroy value. So, again, you don’t need to do this every day. But but you can. And interestingly, nowadays, with machine learning and the developments in natural language processing, you can get voice of the customer data, as long as it’s like, it really comes from the customer. And you can find the emotional sentiment of what people are saying. And then when you combine this with operational data, you can find which operational instances create these emotions. And then you can get a predictive score, not just on the customers who have taken the survey, but on every customer. Because if you see like, oh, people have spoken to George, and they have had this, this problem resolution experience, or they have had this or they walk into the branch three times, and that, and then we can say, Well, who else have them that same thing? And then you can essentially have a best guess on what are they likely to feel? And now if you know that, now we can take some strategies. Now, what can we do a nurturing campaign to save some customers, and the ones that we see are happy? What can we do to upsell and further develop that relationship with those customers? So we’re now living in this in this new world where you can do a lot with data, as long as you know, you have the right data that really captures the real drivers of customer behavior.

Gregorio Uglioni 21:37
Thank you. And I think to make it a bit more tangible also for for the audience. What should business do from a strategical point of view?

Zhecho Dobrev 21:47
Well, I think from a strategical point, I’ve already mentioned something. So like, first, find the real drivers of customer behavior, define the experience, you want to deliver and equip the organization, the people with the skills to do that, and to drive that vision for the experience, effective customer experience. In my book, I talk about seven strategic principles to improve your aim. But I’ll just mention these three things, I think, for now,

Gregorio Uglioni 22:19
but I think it’s really interesting you you’re mentioning these seven business practices for an emotional connection. And I need to ask that you need to choose now between your children, which one do you prefer?

Zhecho Dobrev 22:35
For on those seven on those seven things, I think. So culture is very important. Coaching is very important, but I think it needs to start with with this better understanding of the real drivers of customer behavior. So I think if you if you know that then a lot of things can happen on the back of that.

Gregorio Uglioni 23:02
And based on your research, which was the most remarkable example that you add, throughout your research, because you did a lot of research to create this book, which one stand out from your point of view?

Zhecho Dobrev 23:16
Sure. Well, I think I think, I think one of the best cases was from Merce Klein, in the largest container shipping company. So they they did, they did a complete program. And they did it in a very good way. So they have a lot of, and the best thing, they’re they have a lot of smart people, Six Sigma, you know, doing logistics all the time. And they calculated that for every four point improvement in NPS, they are getting 1%, more cargo shipped, and their NPS increased by 40 percentage points over 30 months. And again, we had done this research with them. And they found that actually, the biggest driver of value for them was either problem resolution, not so not so emotion, but actually that that was creating and driving a lot of positive or negative emotions. And they completely redesigned, completely redesigned, that is a problem resolution so that you know where that sitting who is accountable. And they invested a lot into that. Then they also define the experience that they want to deliver. They said it’s interesting, they they ship containers, not even people, but they say we want to be stand for truth cared for valued, and that had some implications for the way they do business. Because they recognize that they have these brands, and they can charge premium prices. But with premium prices, you need to have a premium experience. And so they focus on these three motions to make the transition between being transactional and focused on the transaction, to actually focusing on the customer relationship and derive more value. So that was, that was a very good example. And we did some podcasts with, with, we’ve done some webinars with the guy who was leading the program, the Vice President and, and a lady called Michelle Patterson, who was actually the customer experience leader in charge. So, so that was I think that was a very successful program that that a lot of people can can learn.

Gregorio Uglioni 25:27
Thank you very much. And now we’ll come to the end of this discussion. However, still some some questions. And Colin Shaw is always speaking about artificial intelligence, data, and customer behavior, behavioral science, in order to create this customer science. And now, with these emotions, we are creating and getting new data. What’s what’s what’s your view? What will come out from this customer Science?

Zhecho Dobrev 25:57
Yes, well, this is really for me, I share that depends on the future, too, compared to the key to future competitiveness. So nowadays, yes, we have data, but you need to think well, what data would really first like, what problems? Are we going to solve with data? And how could we use data to improve the customer experience, nurture relationship, improve our sales ratio, and improve our retention, ratio, and so on. And without data, you need data about the real drivers of customer behavior, right? So you have data, and they say, they go to the new economy, or the agent, as long as you you can, you can analyze it. So that’s where AI and machine learning comes. But again, I emphasize that you can create these algorithms, but unless you take emotions into account, well, you know, actually, there’s some research that algorithms with and without emotions, those with emotions outperform significantly the others. So this is where the algorithm scams and then okay, now you you know, some of the things about customer Well, what do you do about the design of that experience, and this is where behavior science could come in. Knowing the signs about essentially customer behavior, you can design the experience, you can design certain nudges, you can frame things a certain way. And an interesting company that is kind of doing some of those things I found when I was doing the research for my book is a company called sight, see mind or Simon, a Canadian startup, and essentially, they find customers. So they work their b2b. So they work, let’s say, with banks with telecoms and so on. And they find customers that have high probability of defecting on their, on their bills, loans, and so on. And they also found that we’re actually if a customer defect on on a loan, it’s typically not just one loan, but they have a car loan or mortgage or credit card, something. And what most organizations used to do is like defer payments, but that is essentially like kicking the can down the road. And the customer is thinking, Oh, my problem is gone, but actually just gets gets bigger. So what this organization is doing is like creating, understanding the profile of who is likely to defect before they do, and start to implement some communications, and sales service and using convergence, to nudge the customer behavior to change their behavior a little bit to, to change the plan of how they are making payments, before they have defected. And then they’re using AI and natural language processing to see to see how the customer is responding to those nudges, to see the sentiment of what they say how they say, and then further adapt, adapt their approach. And all this is doing through self service. So alleviating things from the customer, from the customer service staff in the call center. And you can see it’s a better experience. It’s it helps retention, it helps save costs. So I think that that is the future more more organizations should be thinking, what can they do with with data and how they can use it to create a better experience and being more productive.

Gregorio Uglioni 29:30
Thank you very much. And I think you’re speaking about the future and the future is now we are now in 10 years time from now 2032 circuitry and we are discussing about about customer experience, what we are discussing about

Zhecho Dobrev 29:45
Sure, well, I think what we just described were discussing. We’re discussing. Yeah, I think really this intersection of AI and behavior, behavior, science and data And yeah, I didn’t think so. So if you think about. So I think like 10-15 years ago, all the big organizations started to create these customer experience programs we’ve worked with. Now they have internal people, we touch a lot of people working on that customer experience, and so on. But we still get some of those on the table and smaller companies coming in, and so on. Now, the big organizations focused on creating these data, data lakes, and starting to experiment more with with machine learning, and AI, I have to say that most of them focus on automation, and stuff like that. But I think still in 10 years time, there will be a lot more stories and a lot more sort of success of what works, what doesn’t work, I think, if you think like, Will CRM where CRM came in, and, you know, thinking them to the world didn’t turn being overnight, and many, many projects fail, then same with customer experience programs with digital transformation. So I think it first needs to start with understanding of what are we really trying to do, and understanding what really drives customer behavior and how to design those things using science. Because again, in 10 years time, many of these machine learning projects and AI would have gone wrong, don’t deliver any returns. But this is where you need to have the right knowledge and to and vision to drive a success of that.

Gregorio Uglioni 31:37
Thank you very much. So we discussed about the big miss our organization overlooked the value of emotions. And now we are really coming to the end of the game in the last three minutes of this game three questions for you. The first one, is there a book that asked you during your career or during your life that you would like to suggest to the audience?

Zhecho Dobrev 31:56
Yeah, well, actually, I think you need to read a lot of books. But the last one that kind of like, stood out for me I was reading it with with a lot of interest and almost like feel sorry that it’s finished. Was this the defining moments by Chip and Dan Heath? I love the examples there a lot. So that’s that’s definitely one.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:21
Thank you very much. And what’s the best way to contact you?

Zhecho Dobrev 32:26
Yeah, people can find me on LinkedIn, also Twitter and beyond philosophy website. Yeah, LinkedIn would be would be a good place to start.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:38
And where we can find your book?

Zhecho Dobrev 32:42
Oh, big, particularly online retailers. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Yeah, some of those big winners.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:55
And the last question is Zhecho golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new, that you would leave to the audience?

Zhecho Dobrev 33:04
Sure. Well, maybe I already told you about the key to, to, to our own relationship with our loved one. So then maybe I’ll finish with a I will give a quote, I think it’s very relevant. They say customers don’t think how they feel. They don’t say what they think and they don’t do what they say. So I think if you have that in mind in business, and not take everything for granted, from what what customers say, I think there’s a lot of things you can do and achieve success.

Gregorio Uglioni 33:42
Thank you very much, and we conclude here our discussion. It was a great pleasure to the audience. Stop this podcast pause, these podcasts go and buy Zhecho. Zhecho’s book, because it’s really a great book, a lot of insights. It is the other half of the cake that people are not often relating to, it’s all about emotions. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. We love feedback. Therefore, feel free to contact Zhecho or myself, and to have a nice discussion to continue the discussion. Thank you Zhecho.

Zhecho Dobrev 34:11
Sure, thank you Gregorio

Gregorio Uglioni 34:15
if you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it. Until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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The intersection between CX and EX with Bill Staikos – E98

Episode released on: 31. October 2022

The intersection between CX and EX with Bill Staikos Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Bill Staikos

LinkedIn Headline: 

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:33 Bill’s introduction
  • 03:51 Bill’s value
  • 06:15 What is the intersection between Customer Experience and Employee Experience?
  • 09:21 Why is this intersection getting more and more important?
  • 14:05 Experience design, insights & Culture
  • 16:11 How to leverage insights to improve this intersection
  • 20:37 what are the key elements on experience design?
  • 23:59 what are the most important points to nurture a positive genuine culture?
  • 27:39 Some examples
  • 29:23 The future of CX
  • 32:46 Book suggestion
  • 34:05 Contact Details
  • 34:42 Bill’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Bill’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • The Experience Economy by J. Pine and J. Gillmore
  • The Grid by Matt Watkinson
  • The Wallet Allocation Rule by Luke Williams

Bill’s Golden Nuggets:

  • Think beyond the survey. Too many organizations are in these “survey break fix” kind of mentality. And think about what other data or sources or customer signals you can access to really round out your understanding of the customers. For me, that is the single biggest thing that is holding back our discipline today. And I don’t think the survey will ever go away, who knows, in 20 years, maybe it will be in 30. To me, this very survey driven mentality is really holding our discipline back. So start exploring, where you have other signals from your customers how to bring that data together, and work with the teams internally to be able to do that, partner with them.

This survey driven mentality is holding CX back. Start exploring, where you have other signals from your customers how to bring that data together. Work with the teams internally to be able to do that @becustomerled1
on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast @medallia

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast. Your host, Gregorio Uglioni, will have small discussions with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope you will enjoy the next episode.

Ladies and gentleman tonight, it’s really a big pleasure because I have Bill Staikos together with me. Hi, Bill, how are you?

Bill Staikos 0:27
Greg, It’s so wonderful to be here. I truly appreciate the invite to be on your podcast. Thank you so much.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:33
Thank you very much. For me, it’s a big pleasure. And now that you told me that you worked also in Switzerland, at a big bank and not far away from where I’m living, even more keen to discuss with you and open that you are coming back to Switzerland to have a sausage together and probably also beer at a nice evening in summer. But before we start dreaming, or all the audience starts dreaming about dinner and traveling. Let’s go to the topic, we are speaking about customer experience. And today, it’s really the intersection of customer experience and employee experience. Before we deep dive into this topic, I am always asking my guests to introduce themselves and therefore also for you, could you please introduce yourself?

Bill Staikos 1:18
Sure. So thank you for that opportunity, Greg. So I have been in the customer, I’ve been working for 25 plus years, always in financial services. Or most I will say there’s a caveat to that. But But 20 or more of those years in customer and employee experience, working in teams being part of them, but also leading teams, many years and consulting most of those years working for very large financial organizations Credit Suisse, why I was in for three years in Zurich. Also JPMorgan Chase, Freddie Mac, most recently, and for the last 18 months or so, I’ve been working at a company called Medallia, which is the global leader in customer and employee experience. Management. We’re a SaaS based business. And we work with clients all over the world. And I do as part of my role to be able to get them to not only understand the capability and the importance of CX, but then how to kind of move through a maturity path as well.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:19
Thank you very much, Bill, I think you forgot something.

Bill Staikos 2:22
Oh, yeah. So I’m not like a really good at self promotion. So forgive me, Greg. I host a weekly podcast called BeCustomerLed. We have listeners in 105 countries. And our in our third season, it’s been more than an end of the reason why I don’t promote it that much as it actually is, is, is a great life and professional hack for me. I’ve probably learned more than than anybody who’s come on to the show. And, but I hope that our listeners are also learning. So it’s been it’s been a lot of fun.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:57
And the promotion is not stopping here, because you will find also the link in the show notes. We are not competitors, I really love your, your podcast, I love it. And I’m following it and therefore super happy that you are here and you’re sharing also your podcasts because at the end, it’s important that the audience get different views on the topics and get different influences and therefore everybody that is contributing to the customer experience community and what we are doing, I appreciate that. And I really appreciate also your job.

Bill Staikos 3:27
Yeah, look, the CX the CS community has always been one where everyone wants to help each other be better. I don’t, there are great podcasts that I listened to including yours that I learned from and I generate ideas from so you know, as long as you’re approaching it from a perspective of learning and growth, there’s no competition, no reason to.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:49
Thank you very much. And I’m not asking if it was the same setup in banking, the banking industry, we stopped here. I’m not asking this question. And we go to the next one. No joke aside, I think we want to learn a bit more about you, and therefore which values drive you in life.

Bill Staikos 4:10
Yeah, that’s a good question. For me. First and foremost, that service, you know, I grew up, told the story once or twice, but I my parents emigrated to the United States in the late 1960s. They were small business owners, specifically restaurants and diners. That’s what Greeks own. In the United States. It’s very cliche, but that’s what they did. And from a very, very young age service, and I observed my parents working, how they dealt with customers, how they dealt with employees, very much from a service mindset and service servant leadership perspective. And that is something that is just in my DNA. So right off the bat, you know, services as a value as a core value is very important to me. And part of the reason why I started the podcast, frankly, is because I wanted to help more people be better at their role. Isn’t our jobs. Number two, you know, for me, like, I don’t know, if this is a value, you can call us a value per se, but like, really being a learner, you know, when you work for doing this work for 20 years, you think you have all the answers. And then you meet folks like you who’ve done the work, the same work, but maybe some differently, you meet folks every week and talk to them, and you realize that you don’t have all the answers. So a little humility, and, and coming from a perspective of I can learn from this person, and what am I doing to grow is very important to me as well. And then finally, you know, I would say just work hard, you know, you know, do the things that you love, and do them super well. And dedicate time to really perfecting the things that you love to do. People say, Oh, you’ll just be good at it because you love it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Right? You know, Tiger Woods loves golf, he’s practices everyday still, I think, you know, practicing the things that you love, and you care about. And investing time in those things, I think is also really important, and something that I tried to visualize.

Gregorio Uglioni 6:15
And I think what you’re saying it’s totally makes sense. And I can refer also to my background, soccer players are training, let’s say 98% of the times, and they’re really playing the game only few hours a week, but they are practicing everyday because they need to get to the perfection and grooving Denson every time. And every also the best players are still training because they need to improve themselves. And therefore I can fully understand what what you were saying. Now without speaking about mathematics, because we are speaking about intersection of customer experience and employee experience. What is exactly this intersection.

Bill Staikos 6:59
So for me, it’s always about been about understanding the behaviors of your workforce, I don’t necessarily like to call it employee experience, frankly, because you’re gonna have consultants working at your company. So I really try I’ve the last year or so I’ve been really trying to focus more on using the term workforce. Workforce doesn’t flow as easily as employee experience, though. For me, it’s understanding the behaviors that drive the best experiences. And not only for customer facing staff, you know, your contact center agent, your banker, your retail store employee. For me, it’s also about, you know, the, the finance organization, the designers, the operations, folks who never see a customer. And if they exhibit behaviors, that show that they know they are accountable to the customer. And the work that they’re doing every day, they can tie the work that they’re doing to the customer impact. That is where that intersection starts to play. So being able to encapsulate some may call it culture or something, I really just like one of those behaviors that we want to coach train upskill our people on, because we know that the end result will be a better customer experience. And by the way, if you’re investing in your employees, and delivering on those behaviors, nurturing them, being a servant to them, giving them the appropriate tools and training to be successful every day, on behalf of the customer, whether you’re in the back office or the front office. I think you know, in your rewarding for for the right behaviors. From a culture perspective. I think that that kind of symbiotic relationship starts to turn into a little bit of a flywheel where happy employees deliver better experiences internally and externally. Happy customers buy more, right that can result hopefully, and sort of more benefits back to the employee or the workforce. And there’s just this great constant cycle that starts to occur and create an organization inside and out. And that’s, you know, that’s that magic that you want to be able to identify and be able to drive.

Gregorio Uglioni 9:21
I think what you’re saying it totally makes sense. The game started a few minutes ago, I asked only one question, but you are really touching the extreme extremely important topics to make it a bit more understandable also for the audience. I really like what you’re saying and you did also in other podcasts in order discussion was an example. And it was something like you can also improve and increase always on the customer experience for the for the front. As for people outside of the company, you have the perfect tools, the perfect app, but then you have on the other side your workforce using 1015 different system to serve the customers and struggling and perhaps customer gets quicker information than the employees. And therefore perhaps also we need to make really tangible for for for, for the audience, why is this intersection so important? And why is getting more and more important?

Bill Staikos 10:19
Look, I think that the the sort of the integration of EX and CX is a top five business imperative for the next 10 years. And, you know, when we all know what the benefits of a better employee experience, as we all seen quantitative measures, you know, in research on why a great customer experience is important, I think that research is going to start to come together more. And when you do that, to your examples, a great one, right? If I create the best, even omni channel experience, so as a customer, I can go from app to web to branch or retail location. All of that is seamless. It’s a wonderful journey throughout. But I get there and the retail employee is just very rude to me. You’ve wasted all that money, all that all that all that app, all the development from the website that now becomes technical debt. Right? Even though companies don’t see it that way, it becomes technical debt. And, you know, if you’re not giving your people the tools and the resources and the capabilities and the training, and lifting them up and understanding like the connection for them between the design principles that a design team is putting in place, and they are creating an app experience, and what does that mean, not only for the customer in the app, but then what does that mean for the customer through a journey? I think a lot of organizations are missing the book at a previous employer, one of the things that we started to do was, and we we did this for our sales of one sales group in particular, as we started to look at what behaviors they were exhibiting. So we were lucky enough to be looking at Microsoft, we had Microsoft Word or Microsoft company, we have access to Microsoft Workplace Analytics, most Microsoft companies have access to this data, it will tell you, if your employees are texting while they’re on a phone call, it will tell you if they have too many meetings with one person versus, you know, having one on ones with all their directs. Or it can give you information on how quickly they’ve ramped up their network inside the company and even outside. So we started to look at all this data and said, Okay, if we looked at this team, we just took one team, and we you know, we anonymized it, it wasn’t done at the individual level. But we look at the team level. And we looked at all the behaviors of his team. What what behaviors have a direct correlation or impact on how they’re engaging other employees across the firm? And then how are they engaging with the customer. And it was really profound in terms of very simplistic things, basic blocking and tackling type stuff that, you know, we then gave to that leader and said, we obviously can’t tell you exactly who, right because there was policy from an HR perspective, we couldn’t get down to the individual level, but for your team specifically encouraged these behaviors. And it was really just five. And you know, we ran a little pilot, they talked about in their team meetings, how are you approaching this? What are you doing, and we started to see a difference in the data. And ultimately, that, that led to just difference in data from a customer perspective as well. And, you know, that is really powerful, to be in very quantifiable to be able to show just by changing a few simple actions in someone’s day to day, how that results not only from a cultural perspective, but then also from a customer perspective, is really, really powerful stuff. And I think, you know, the technology is there to do it today. But a lot of organizations maybe are just not ready, or they’re yet to be able to bring the two together.

Gregorio Uglioni 14:06
I think you’re touching a lot of extremely important topics. One is experienced design, it’s insights, and it’s cultural. I’m using these three words, not because I find them out, but it’s also a frame of work that you’re often using relating. And the example that you share is exactly focusing on on this topic. You have this framework that you often explain, could you please quickly elaborate and that we can then go to it?

Bill Staikos 14:34
Sure. So and this goes back to actually to the my days in Zurich, you know, we looked at the best companies. Well, from a customer experience perspective, what were the best experience companies doing well, and it came down to three things. One is they had a very deep understanding of who their customers are, their prospects as well what those needs were and how those needs were evolving. Number two is they invested, they would take this information. It doesn’t say what seems like rockets, it’s not rocket science, right. But they would take this information, these insights and design experiences through the journey with the, with that information at scale. And thirdly, they, they, they use this information to create a customer lead culture. And those three pillars, you know, there are different sorts of behaviors and activities that are associated with each one of those pillars. And it’s, it can drive the difference between your customers feeling ignored, versus your customers being obsessed with the brand. And, you know, back then we even identified the exact specific behaviors and activities that organizations should be doing, including a scoring model for the business. And you know, and then we would work with the business, okay, you want to be obsessed, you want your customers be obsessed, here are the things that we need to do to get there. And it was a great model. A lot of great work from the team went into that a lot of long hours, but unexercised really well worth it and created a bit of a roadmap for us to be able to engage the business on with as well.

Gregorio Uglioni 16:11
I think this is extremely important. And now going to these topics, one after the other. Speaking about insight, Insight is really key to get this knowledge, this understanding about customer, you said, customer obsessed, let’s start understanding the customer before you’re obsessed about about the customer. How can you leverage insights, really to improve this intersection between customer experience and employee experience? And perhaps also why I’m asking this question, I often have discussion also with C suite, and they’re saying, we need to do something for the customer. And then please start altering initiative to improve the employee experience. And then we need to do something for the products and what you’re saying, is this close everything together. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on that.

Bill Staikos 17:00
Yeah, sure. This so this is a topic that is really near and dear to my heart. And I talk a lot about this with with with executives, I was actually on a phone call on a phone call today with an executive. And you know what one, I want to say that there’s a lot of survey fatigue within companies, not just from customers, but even within companies. You hear a lot of executives say which do too many surveys, right. So when I think about insights and understanding, I don’t think about sort of the 12% of the population that responds to a survey, I think about, you know, really thinking about all the signals that you have access to, to understand your customer and understand your employees. So as an example, when you look at Medallia, only 20% of the signal capture we have is from a survey 80 percentage from financial data, social media, transcription from speech to text, sentiment analysis, text, analytics, operational data, that’s the other 80%. So when I say deep understanding and listening, I really mean a 360 degree view of your customer, as well as your employees, it’s a little bit trickier. on the employee side, obviously, there are very, very strict regulations in country by country, frankly, obviously, Switzerland being one of them, excuse me. But where you can bring data together to understand it is really important. And you know, the technology exists today where you can bring both those datasets together, and let the AI figure it out for you, right, like where where’s Where does one work? And where does the other not? Where do they both work where they both don’t work? And I think that looking at the entire end to end behavior, even even digital behavior, you don’t have to ask a single question, right? You can understand digital behavior with technology today. So that’s where that’s where my mindset goes to when I started talking about insights and deep understanding. It’s okay, surveys are they have their place, they’re important. They’re, you know, not only interesting overall relationship, but even just down to the transactional level, there’s a time and place for them, but really think about how do we expand to capture all signals from our customers? How do we bring that data together in a smart way to be able to analyze that, and then look, let’s look at the corresponding employee data. And mash that up and analyze it in a way that helps us identify new patterns, new ideas, new behaviors, that result in the business outcomes we want to drive. For example, if you are a mortgage company, you want to sell mortgages you want. You want people to submit an application. And I think starting from that, and this may be a little bit unorthodox for a CX leader to say but I think you need to understand what what do we want the customer to actually do like how do we make money or how do we reduce our costs are how do we improve culture? Let’s just say we want the customer to fill out a mortgage application. What are what are the behaviors that lead to that from a customer perspective? What are the processes that flow into that? And then what are sort of the operational metrics that help us understand that? And then on the back end, by the way, post mortgage, are they happy with the experience or not? Right? And, you know, being able to think of that measurement framework, or that hierarchy in that way, really opens up insights in new and different ways.

Gregorio Uglioni 20:37
I think this is extremely interesting, and leveraging your example related to mortgage, and we worked on an application form for other type of uploads. And we find out that taking one question out from a form that it was not relevant, or not really mandatory to ask, increase the filling rate by 2%. It sounds not so much. But if you go through each question, asking these questions, then extremely help designing the experience in the way that the customer really have a frictionless process and can quickly go to that, and basically elaborating on experience design, what are the key elements from from your point of view on experience design?

Bill Staikos 21:23
So I think comes, you know, you know, when I think about sort of experiences on I think about sort of the design thinking process, right, starting with with empathy, right, really, really understanding who your customer is, you know, at a previous employer, this is a great example. And something that I’m really proud of the team at this company for doing it, I won’t mention the name. But what we did was, what we did was provide, we connected the CX platform with JIRA, the workflow platform for these developers. And you know, what we did was, have persistent feedback, go through these persistent teams. Because if you go talk to a developer hands on keys, right, there’s, I don’t have time to go talk to a customer, I don’t have time for customer feedback. But they go through a two week sprint, and they talked about the customer all the time. So how are you designing and creating value for a customer if you’ve never talked to them? Or if you never hear from them? Right? So I think one is starting with empathy, having a deep understanding of what who your customer is creating design principles to design against that keep you on that sort of Northstar. And then having persistent feedback, go through the channels through those workflow tools. So teams can create better user stories, which leads to lower technical debt. It also leads to ultimately better measurement against OKRs. Because now you have a customer lens on your OKRs not just sort of we we produced this widget in 60 days. You can you can create innovation sprints around this insight, and really bring the team together in a meaningful way. We actually trained the entire product organization, about 150 people at this place, on design thinking methodology, how to be a practitioner of design thinking that had profound impact on how they organized ran or two week sprints. Now instead of a two week sprint, from a, you know, agile perspective, it was a design thinking workshop. So you’re prototyping, building something, or trying to solution testing, really an iterating very, very quickly. And I think a lot of organizations, if you’re not like a SASS company, or like a small product company, let’s take these big, big banks as an example. They’re now slowly starting to realize the benefits of that model and are trying to put it into place and the results once they figure it out. I think it’s going to be really profound.

Gregorio Uglioni 23:59
I think what what you’re saying totally makes sense. And it’s also extremely linked to the culture that you have in a company, the opportunity to train 150 employees, it cost money, but the leaders are not seeing the cost of training this 150 people, but they are seeing the benefits after these people are trained, what they can achieve and you quickly and clearly explained how we were able to in order to achieve results if everybody was the same language about design thinking, and then also creating your results, and perhaps touching a bit also the topic culture that I think is key in every company because we are all human beings. From your point of view, what are your, let’s say, most important points to nurture a positive genuine culture in a company.

Bill Staikos 24:49
So I love this line around culture. I didn’t make it up. I don’t know who I can attribute it to, but I heard it somewhere. You know, culture is what you reward and If you reward the bad behaviors, you’re gonna get bad behaviors or bad culture, if you reward the right behaviors. I think culture is a very personal company. Topic. Not too many people like the word culture anymore. It’s, it’s a little bit too fluffy, a little bit like customer experience on some level right? Now, a colleague of mine, and I put this in a post not too long ago said, Oh, leaders think that CX is like sprinkles on ice cream. Culture is a little bit like that, too. Right? I think it’s about for me, like the best cultures, at least I’ll talk to the best cultures that I’ve worked in, you have leaders that, you know, really, they are authentic, and they show up as themselves every day, they encourage their team members to do the same. And they walk the walk, I just posted something about my boss today actually on LinkedIn, amazing leader, right? She’s creating a culture in her organization, where openness, dialogue communication, ideas are rewarded. And it’s a fantastic thing to not only see as an employee of a team, and as a member of a team. But it’s also it’s nice to be able to say, you know, have that example of what leadership can be, and be able to filter that down. The thing about culture for me these days, Greg, is that in the middle, that middle management piece today, is really, really suffering. And I don’t think that I don’t mean to generalize across industry, but there, there really needs to be a renewed focus on that middle management. Because they’re not given the tools and the resources to be successful. By and large. You’ve got people obviously, than leaving the company, right. And you have the great resignation, because their direct manager is not able to support them the right way. But they’re the ones responsible for delivering on objectives. And these metrics and measures. Yes, executives are too, but it’s a very different perspective. So, you know, when I think about culture, I think about top to bottom, bottom up, the CEO is 111 x 1,000th of the culture. They’re an important voice in that, obviously. But I think it’s about, you know, listening, encouraging ideas, encouraging fast failure, encouraging innovation, and, and every warning for those behaviors at the end of the day.

Gregorio Uglioni 27:39
I can only say Amen. That’s, that’s the reality, because I have nothing to add. The only question that I still have in relation to countries, you spoke about your your not boss, your leader, whether the person responsible for you? Do you have any older example that you can share you would like to share about these really great cultures and companies?

Bill Staikos 28:05
Yeah, I think it’s a, you know, I think the last thing that I’ll add is that the best cultures are where you know, you it’s a safe space to be able to have open dialogue. And some of it is I mean, it’s not always easy, right? It’s not always like an easy conversation. But, you know, sometimes, in the best cultures, even the toughest conversations, you feel confident bringing those topics up. And I think that is a real sign of a culture that is really thriving, where the leader of that group, or whoever that is, the CEO included, has created a safe place, you know, psychological safety, call it whatever you want, where you and I can disagree as an example. But because we work together, we’re gonna move past it, or we’re gonna find a solution. Right. And I think, I think creating an environment like that is super important. And, you know, the organizations that I’ve seen, has been most successful, not necessarily from a customer experience perspective, but just from a general organizational perspective, are the ones that are create sort of an environment where those conversations can happen naturally and freely and without any ramification.

Gregorio Uglioni 29:23
I think this this totally makes sense. Because at the end, as we are at all we would like to be in the business we would like to have discussion as we are arriving in the feminist club clear there are different setups, but at the end, I think if we feel safe, comfortable, then it’s easier to work. Yeah. times is flying and therefore now we quickly close our eyes. We are 10 years older, and we are still on the CX goalkeeper podcast, and I’m discussing will be which will take us what we’re discussing about In relation to customer experience,

Bill Staikos 30:02
oh 10 years from now oh boy. So what is that 2022 2032 I so I think about the future of CX a lot. I think that we are talking about a discipline that looks very, very different than it does today, the skill sets needed, and within the next 10 years are going to be very different than they are today. I think you’re gonna see skills like data architecture, I think you’re gonna see skills like cycle psychology engineering, I think you’re gonna see skills like financial engineering. I think the CXO I talked about the the future for future archetypes for the CXO technologist futurist practitioner, in data science, data, architecture, data, data architecture. And I think that new technologies in 10 years, certainly, let’s say by 2030, wearables. The ability of six g, I think, you know, when it’ll be the the internet of everything that the Internet of Things by then new technologies, like no code, low code, that will turn you and me into citizen developers, it’ll be about talking not about typing, right. And that will create these micro innovation. Each individual as a consumer will become their own innovation kind of center, and be able to create their own experiences and hack, the experiences that are delivered to them in real time. So you have real like experience actualization. The other thing that I’ll add in 10 years, and this is something that I’m really keen on sort of understanding and doing more thinking around, is this concept of Omni verse. And today, like, Omni channel as a term is 20 years old, and 2023 next year, okay. And I think with the advent of things like the metaverse, we’re just leaving, let’s just say extended reality. Generally, that can include virtual and non virtual worlds. I think that as consumers or as businesses, we’re going to have to start thinking in the omniverse, because consumers are going to be jumping out of fully virtual immersive environments, they may still want to go into our branch or retail store, they’re going to still call a contact center, maybe over the phone, not through a virtual world. And they’ll be bouncing in and out of these. And I think that’s where like design generally. And the ability to design across multiple different mediums and platforms, digital and non digital has become even more and more important over the next couple of years.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:46
And I’m looking forward to this future and to you and creating this future all together. Bill, it was a big pleasure. The referee is telling me we still have three minutes for the three questions. And therefore let’s quickly catch up with the with the last questions. Is there a book that help you during your career or during your life that you would suggest to do that?

Bill Staikos 33:11
Yeah, a couple actually, Joe Pines book, the experience economy in 1999, literally changed. It’s why I got into this work. Matt Watkins in the grid has I mean, and then the third one is the wall allocation rule by Luke Williams. Those three books changed my perspective on customer experience. I mean, more than any other book that I’ve ever read. And I go back to them a lot in reference them. And yeah, I mean, that that, for me is sort of the test of time, right, when you’re when you’re constantly going back and rereading. But also going back to notes in the margin and saying, that’s what I needed. And you know, that is, those three books for me have been absolutely critical to my, to my advancement, my career, my thinking around this space. And there are just three people that I admire and respect

Gregorio Uglioni 34:05
the most. Thank you very much. And what’s the best way to contact you?

Bill Staikos 34:10
So I’m really active on LinkedIn, DME me up through there, that’s number one, check out be customer led – becustomerled.com . But the app, please please, if you have if you if you’re new in the CX space, DME, I mentor a lot of different people, especially folks who are just breaking into into customer employee experience and happy to do it. So I really want everyone who’s doing this work to be a great success.

Gregorio Uglioni 34:42
So thank you very much. And I add and please subscribe to the podcast of dealing with the customer lead because it’s really, really interesting posted podcast, go there, subscribe and then come back because now we’re coming to the last question is Bill Bill’s golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed Something new that you would leave to the audience.

Bill Staikos 35:04
The one thing that I will leave for the audience we talked a little bit about on the show, Greg, you know, think beyond the survey. Too many organizations are in this survey, break, fix kind of mentality. And think about what other data or sources or customer signals you can access to really round out your understanding of the customer. For me, that is the single biggest thing that is holding back our discipline today. And I don’t think the survey will ever go away, who knows, in 20 years, maybe it will, or 30. But like, That, to me is this very survey driven mentality is really holding our discipline back. So start exploring, where you have other signals from your customers how to bring that data together, and work with your work with the teams internally to be able to do that partner with them.

Gregorio Uglioni 35:56
Thank you very much, Bill, this is the perfect conclusion, because in 10 years, you will come back to this show to discuss about the omniverse. And in 20 years or 30 years, you are coming back to discuss what we are doing because we don’t have any service anymore. The only thing that I can say is thank you very much. It was really a great pleasure to have you on this show.

Bill Staikos 36:19
It was It was my honor. Thank you for having me on. It’s a real pleasure. And like I love, I love meeting people even alive you and I’ve exchanged a little bit over the over the last year. But it’s an honor, being on the show and just talking about this stuff with other six leaders like you, I really do enjoy it.

Gregorio Uglioni 36:35
Thank you very much. Please, Bill, stay with me and to the audience. Thank you very much for your time we really like and we really enjoy your feedback. I’m not sending you a survey, but please let us know your feedback to build or to order or direct to me, and I’m happy to share that with Bill. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. Bye bye. If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget, we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Social Selling with Timothy Hughes – E97

Episode released on: 24. October 2022

Social Selling with Tim Hughes Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Timothy Hughes

LinkedIn Headline: Should have Played Quidditch for England

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:45 Timothy’s introduction
  • 02:00 Timothy’s values
  • 03:31 which changes have taken places over the last few months in relation to digital and customer experience?
  • 10:04 How do you define social selling in the right way?
  • 17:23 Customer Experiences from Tim’s point of view
  • 20:28 How to differentiate between SPAM and social selling
  • 26:09 The future of CX
  • 28:07 Book suggestion
  • 29:22 Contact details
  • 30.05 Tim’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Tim’s book:

https://www.amazon.com/-/en/Tim-Hughes/e/B01EVFQMLK/ref=aufs_dp_fta_dsk

Tim’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Crossing the Chasm Summary by Geoffrey Moore

Guest’s Golden Nuggets:

  • It’s related to the digital dominance piece. We’re asking a lot of people at the moment who is the leading technical and commercial influence in your market or vertical
  • And what what what we’re seeing in the b2c business to consumer space Is there a very clear definition of what an influencer is, and how they influence people
  • We don’t see that in the business to business space. And the thing is, is that being an influencer isn’t okay. If people go influence and then roll their eyes and think it’s something to do with tiktok and dancing and stuff like that.
  • Now, this is a way of you defining your market.
  • if you’re a small player, or even if you’re a big player, but if you’re a small player, and you are fighting against big players, this is how you can actually define the market, define the narrative.
  • And what we’re what we’re doing is that we’re working with a number of organizations, where we’re using things like live streaming, as the ability to make that definition, and basically create an anchor in the markets. And then, you are the person that is that is defining that market. And the other people then have to shift to do what you’re what you’re what you’re doing.
  • we’re seeing that taking place now in b2b. People are starting to do it. And what went well, it’s quite funny to watch, because we’ve seen one of our clients do it. And then we’ve seen the competition go absolutely ballistic, trying to work out what to do. And it’s quite funny watching the competition, which in effect, you can see struggling and drowning, because they don’t understand the technicalities, or the science or the psychology behind what the clients are doing.
  • This thing about understanding the technical and commercial influence in b2b. We’re going to see a massive uptake on that. Because people can use digital as a way of defining the market.

“This thing about understanding the technical and commercial influence in b2b. We’re going to see a massive uptake on that. Because people can use digital as a way of defining the market.” @Timothy_Hughes on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast, your host, Gregorio Uglioni, will have small discussions with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope you will enjoy the next episode.

Ladies and gentlemen, tonight, it’s really a big, big pleasure because Tim Haughes together with me. Hi, Tim, how are you?

Timothy Haughes 0:28
Hi, Greg, I’m really excited to talk to you. It’s it’s a, it’s a lovely day here in London. And I’m really excited to talk with you and talk about customer experience and the way things have changed. And it’s a, it’s a wonderful world that we live in.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:45
I think what you’re saying, Yes, that’s true, we need to look on the bright side of life, to quote a song can reside that I think this is, and this is also an important to have this discussion, these exchanges. And you know, we met through LinkedIn, and it was a good match for you for my audience. And therefore, I’m super happy to discuss with you about customer experience and social selling, we see also in your background, or the people watching to the video, that you have a nice book. But before we start discussing about the book, I always ask this question, Tim, could you please introduce yourself?

Timothy Haughes 1:19
Yes, I’m Tim Hughes. And I’m the CEO and co founder of a company called DLA DLA Ignite. And what we do is that we transform sales teams and transform businesses to use digital, so not digital as in it things with digital in terms of the people in the process. And that quite often manifests itself in what most people know as social selling. And as you mentioned, there’s a I’ve got a new book out. And so most people see it is the digitalization of sales, but actually, it’s very, very much broader than that. But we’re here really to talk about customer experience, and sales and marketing.

Gregorio Uglioni 2:00
But I think social selling and social, social media are really, really important. But before we did a deep dive in this topic, perhaps also to learn a bit more about you which values drives in life.

Timothy Haughes 2:14
What sorry?

Gregorio Uglioni 2:16
which values drives you in life?

Timothy Haughes 2:21
I think that, I mean, what what we try and do, and what I try and show is what as well as to what, what we’re doing is helping people. And we’re helping people to be more effective and efficient. And I know kind of like everybody can will say that. But what we’re doing is that we’re this hit, we’re living in a world have an inflection point. So it’s a bit like when the Industrial Revolution came along, and, and change things here we are in a similar Industrial Revolution. And we’re moving to digital, and for everybody, that’s going to be difficult and hard. But they’ve got to do it to survive. And so the best thing to do is actually to come from it from a way of actually help. And you know, what we do every day is, all of us who work for the business put out interesting content that we think that will help people. And the book is there, it’s not about me and my journey or anything like that. It’s it’s a book, that workbook to help people who want to become digital or want to use social selling. So that and that that kind of drives us every day.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:31
Thank you very much. And I think you are already touching the topic where we’d like to discuss it. And to kick off this this topic. We speak about customer experience on this on the show, you are speaking about social selling. And I think these two topics are really related between between themselves. And basically now with COVID Going in direction digital. Do you see any changes that have taken places over the last few few months in relation to digital and customer experience?

Timothy Haughes 4:01
But I think there’s been a massive change even before COVID. You know, we were seeing that social media have changed the world. It’s changed the way that we live our lives from society perspective, you know, we now are able to keep in contact with people right across the world and grandparents are able to see grandchildren in Australia and stuff like that. And we were never able to do that before. And we also know that when we turn on the TV, there will be something about something about Twitter or someone said this sort of someone and we’ve also seen that the way that we’ve changed the way that we do business. You know, when I first started doing working in corporate world helping salespeople with social you know, it’s just a case of well why don’t you look up your customers before you go and see them. But that’s now accelerated and as buyers there’s an infinite amount of information available on the on the internet. You know, even something simple about you know, our city Hang in a cafe with my partner and I said, Let’s go to Iceland for the weekend. And she said, Okay, well, I’ll look at the flights and you look at the Airbnb s, and we’re sitting there actually having a conversation with our mobiles, not not as in talking to each other. So I found this, Airbnb, what do you think? And so what happens is that we now have this situation where we’re kind of this, this digital twin, where we have ourselves sitting in the in the analog world, but immediately there will go on into, say, LinkedIn, and there’s us in the digital world. And I think there’s still this disconnection that there’s there’s not an understanding that there is this digital world that we live in. And we talk about being able to walk digital converse, work digital corridors, and have digital conversations. And now that’s a skill, just as much as Excel, and PowerPoint became a skill was it 20 years ago, and being able to do that you will now everybody has to be able to do that. Whether you’re in sales, whether you’re in marketing, whether you’re in human resources, it’s a fundamental way of working. And that’s, and what’s happened with COVID is COVID is accelerated that before COVID, we were in a situation where people went now, you know, it will never happen. And of course, we’ve had two years of having to sit at home, having to use the internet having to converse with people. I remember when when shut down first happened in March 2020, in the UK, and people were saying, I don’t know how to use Zoom. And we were all joking about mum and grandma or whatever go what button do I need to press and stuff like that. They’re my, my mother started running, she runs Wine groups. She’s a big member of the EU three a the University of the Third Age, then they spend, and someone said, oh, you can’t run a wine group on on zoom on Zoom. She said, Okay, I’ll show you how to do it. And so one person went by and dropped the bottles, all the different houses, and then they sat there on Zoom and tasted them and everything is now they said you couldn’t run, you couldn’t have a doctor on Zoom. Now, the only way that you can get doctor here in the UK is now online, they said you can’t run churches, you can’t do piano lessons, all of that is now is the whole of the way that we live live has now transferred, transferred online. And that’s the same in business as it is in society. And the problem that that organizations face is not realizing this and or recognizing this and doing something about

Gregorio Uglioni 7:25
it. It’s super interesting what what you’re saying. And I really liked the way that you’re explained it on one side on the human side, making the example of your partner and so on. And on the other side on the business and perhaps to unpack also my experience what what you said, this is this is the key because I have a small son is five years old. And this is what the only way that we eat was able to speak with with the grandma or grandpa with the grandchildren and earning this connection between him and my mother or my father in law. It helped and at least it was only digital but now they understand that the small children are five years old, oh, I can talk with with my, with other people through the phone. And on the other side. Also, other people that are able to be part of the familiar situation also far, far far away.

Timothy Haughes 8:23
And I remember and I remember having calls, you know, run the global business, you know, and I remember having a call in the morning with Australia then going on to having one with India, them having one in the UK. And then having one in with the US. Everybody was in exactly the same position. It wasn’t just because there was a typhoon in in Japan or something like that everybody across the world had the same it was impacted the same way. And we were all forced to learn how to use mobile phones, how to use the internet and how to use tools like this, how to use social media, and even even the lifeguards, you know, 60% of the world’s population are now active on social media. And active means that they spend two and a half hours a day. So, you know, a friend of mine who’s a millennial said, if you’re not on social media, then it only means you got something to hide. And we’re now in a situation where the only people that are not on social media worldwide are people like North Korea and Burundi and places where they block access to it. So it’s made such a massive change and it’s set made such a massive change to the way that we do business and the expectation from our from our buyers and our customers in the way that they do business with us which is now online.

Gregorio Uglioni 9:46
And I think this is this is the key all the consumers all the buyers are now online comparing online what you said with the example of your partner that you were trying to book an Airbnb and to book the flight and how can then brands find a new way to connect with buyers.

Timothy Haughes 10:04
Yes. And that’s, that’s, that’s the $56 million question, which is what what brands have done now for over 100 years is use interruption. So what you do, whether it’s a cold call or an email or advert is you interrupt me and you pitch. And what brands think they do with social media is they do interruption, which is they will pay media, which is they’re going to interrupt me and their pitch, and then they find it doesn’t work. And the reason why doesn’t work is social media is social media. It’s a media that allows you to be social, which is, you know, you and I met because we had, we met, we had a conversation, just as we much, much as if I met you in at a networking event in Zurich, and said, Hi, how you doing? Hi, it’s been a long time since I was in Zurich. And, you know, and and then we had a conference and have a conversation. And that’s the thing that people miss that because what they’ve done before is that they’ve posted that they’ve they’ve made a cold call, they’ve posted an email, and they don’t. And once you send the email, you go, Well, that’s it. With social, what you actually do is you have conversations. So posting on social actually doesn’t generate you anything posting on social to generate a conversation does, because it because within b2b conversations, create sales, you know, what I sell requires you to have a conversation. And what most people sell in b2b requires you to have a conversation, maybe you can, you can turn some of it and say, right, okay, we’re going to post something on the web, and maybe some people will buy it. But history has shown so far that when when customers say they prefer to buy off the web, what they actually mean is I don’t like dealing with salespeople, because all they do is try and pitch to me, and try and sell me something. And what happens is, unfortunately, all of this stuff about interruption goes against a very common psychological condition, which is that we don’t like being told what to do. Or we don’t like being presented with an idea. And what happens is that it impacts our the old brain so the brain that we had on the Serengeti, not the new brain that we have. And that brain has two reactions, one is fight and one is flight. So what happens is that if I if I, immediately if someone cold calls me, I don’t take off course. But if they if there’s someone got through immediately, the first thing that happens is you want to either fight them or flight. And the problem with cold calling is you have to try and get through that. I couldn’t give you other reasons why it cold calling doesn’t work anymore. But fundamentally, we see marketing is broken. And until people actually recognize that we’re living in a hyper connected world, where we’re able to get ahold of as buyers, we’re able to make decisions, go around salespeople, not look at Brands, compare things so even if you cold call me I can go online and I can compare you to other brands. The same with adverts. You know, a friend of mine said to me, I like adverts are so wise, he says well, it gives me ideas. And then I go on music and buy from another brand. Go and buy another product. So here we are people placing ads, and all they’re doing is driving people to the competition. This is the fundamental issue that brands are impacted with today.

Gregorio Uglioni 13:39
I think that what you’re saying is extremely interesting. One thing that you mentioned that I would like to repeat is people are spending two and a half hours on social media. At the end, it means a lot of time. The second thing that you mentioned it’s about conversation, because and I am also LinkedIn, I continuously get these messages, DMS do you have 30 minutes to 15 minutes tomorrow or next week for a conversation. I could spend my whole day only listening to pitches to something that I don’t need. And I think what what you’re saying it’s extremely key and changing and going in now in the right direction, what you were saying? How do you define social selling in the right way?

Timothy Haughes 14:25
Really, really good question, Greg. And just going back to what you say, you know, these people that are sending spam messages that’s not social selling, it’s spam. We see social selling is it’s about using your presence and behavior on social media to build influence and and connections grow relationships, and trust, which leads to conversation and commercial interaction. And what we do is that we help organizations do that. So that’s about connecting to people and and starting a conversation just as much as I would too, if I came out before I was in Zurich, and I came up to you and say, Hey, Greg, I like your hats. And and we just start talking. And the thing is, is, we’re all used to doing that. And we’re all used to, you know, have going to parties or meeting parents and having conversations. But the moment that we seem to switch into work mode, we suddenly can’t we lose the the art of the conversation, immediately, all we can do is talk about our company and our products, and nobody cares. Nobody cares about our company or products. They may do further down the line once you’ve actually had a conversation. But see, I was talking to someone the other day, senior sales leader, and and he said to me, he said, she said, I don’t believe any of this works. I said, so how do you think we’ve just got on this call? Anyway? Oh, yeah, that’s it. So I connected to you on LinkedIn, you went in, I said, we then started having a conversation. It was you that actually suggested that we go on a call and have a and I said, Here I am pitching to you. This, then and it was just like that penny drop moment, or that aha moment where someone went, Oh, yeah. And you know, this isn’t, even though we may say, stop, stop selling, actually, your sell more by stop selling. And by being social, and so on social media and having conversations. And what we do is that what I’m what I talk about in this book is about how to do that, how, how you can actually use social media. Now, one CEO said to me, when he read the first edition of it, he said it was the first book he’d ever read, we saw there was a connection between social media, and revenue. And that’s what that’s the message that I had in my head, when I rewrote the book for the second edition, I wanted to make sure that people are very, very clear that there is an ability to create revenue from social, if you’re not, you’re leaving money on the table.

Gregorio Uglioni 17:06
And what you’re saying is exactly the same discussion that we have in the customer experience community, How we link customer experience to revenues to profit, long term profit, short term profit. But at the end, it’s why a business exists is to make profit and to earn money and create value

Timothy Haughes 17:23
customer experience is the experience, the experience that the buyer hat, the buyer, well, let’s take the buyer for the moment has gone digital. So it’s not just about your website, because if you think about what what buyers do, buyers will go on to social media. And they will say I’ve got a you know, they will start searching for a problem. So we have a client, which is now Moss, which is 100 person, Oracle reseller. They’re in a situation where they’ve transformed their sales team, the sales team now have what we call buyer centric profiles. They look interesting to boss, the boss said, You look interesting, can you help me and the salesperson then had a conversation, which is a normal conversation that salespeople and buyers have, that turned into a $2.6 million deal. They subsequently taken another 600 600k dollars out of that client. So the fact of the matter is, is this isn’t low level stuff people are making and doing very large transactions on on social and if you’re not empowering your team with it, you’re missing out on that. So so we have this situation, that social is where the buyers are. But it’s also the same with it’s also the buyer is also looking for a job. You know, Job Hunters are doing exactly the same, investors are doing exactly the same. So that your your customer experience is about your online presence, not just about your sales team, but the whole of the business. You know, what, what is it as your as a job Hunter? What, what am I doing? I’m looking to see what your business stands for? What does what’s the CEO like? What’s the board like? And I’m coming onto social media and I’m making those decisions, the same as if I’m going to invest in your business, I’m going to look you up on social. So this is about this isn’t just about sales, this is about whole of customer experience that people have, regardless of where they are, whether your prospects, your clients, your employee, your future employee, an investor, whatever, you have to have an online presence, that people can go that person that isn’t that business interesting. I’d love to work there. Or isn’t that you know, if if I was in the market for that, that that’s the company that I would like to buy. People are doing this right now. This isn’t something that something in the future. You know, we’ve been as a business. We’ve been doing this for six years transforming companies. And we have companies that complain to us complain to us, they have too much pipeline. And they have too much pipeline because they’re building a customer experience and you know this if you go Have a good customer experience, then people will come to you because they’ll come to you. And they’ll also come back. And this is about building a customer experience that people want to go go for in the digital space.

Gregorio Uglioni 20:13
And I think having a pipeline is not so bad. I would say it nowadays.

Timothy Haughes 20:18
absolutely, I thought it was really funny when the people when I was on a call and said, we’ve got a problem. So with that said, we’ve got too much pipeline.

Gregorio Uglioni 20:28
No, I understand that. But what you’re saying it totally makes sense, perhaps also to help the audience to really, really understand the difference between social selling, done in the right way and spam. Do you have some, in some ideas, some thoughts to share, how to really quickly find out what’s good and what’s bad.

Timothy Haughes 20:48
So spam is where people come to you and basically interrupt you and and pitch their product. And it’s the same as what they’re doing it on socialism, as they will do it on email, and it you know, it all of those spam, the three, there’s three things that you need to know understand about social selling. The first is you need to have what we call a buyer centric profile. This is a profile that buyers will go, you look interesting. So your LinkedIn profile is your shop window. There’s 150 million people on LinkedIn and they walk past your shop window every day now, do they walk past it and go that looks boring? Or do they walk past it and go, that person’s looking for a job? Or do they walk past it and go, that looks interesting. I’m gonna actually read this. Wow, that’s random quantity that wow, wow. And, oh, I’ve got a lot in common with this person. You know, what, what, what is it that they what is it they’re going to see when they see that profile? Now, a lot of See, a lot of salespeople will say things like, I’ve got, I’ve been in President’s Club four out of the five years for all I had for the last five years. And whenever I get my teeth into a prospect, either they die, or I will die first. Now, as a buyer, that’s not a person that I’m going to be interested in. So you need to have a profile. And the more that you make it bad about yourself, it is very true that people by people, especially on social, the more you make it about yourself, your more that you’ll find that people will lean in the Chris Fleming who is the CEO of cyber Hawk, which is one of our clients. He says in his summary that he was expelled from school. Now, he tells a story about why he was expelled from school and the learnings that he took from that. And the fact that he’s now a CEO of a of a very fast growing company. But what you’ll do is that your is when people look at it and go.

This is this is a CEO, that I this is a CEO that I’d like to go with, to bid for beers where there’s a CEO that I I’d like I think that we could do business with. And that’s what people are looking for. They’re making those sorts of decisions online. The second thing that you need is a network. And as wide as as broad as network as you can get. Now, what you’ll find is that if you talk to salespeople, you say, Okay, you’re working on a particular account, how many people are you connected to, they’re usually saying none or one. And, and what you need is to be connected to as many people in that account as you can, I have one person who works for me, he has one particular target account, he’s connected to 1000 people in that account. He’s connected to the whole of the C suite in the UK, and the whole of the C suite in the US. But when anybody he connects to looks at him, they look at it and go, Well, he’s connected to all these senior people in this company, he must be a good guy. And so what he’s doing is that he’s actually this is this is about walking the digital corridors, walking those corridors and talking to the different people. Now, when you want to sell into account, you talk to as many people as you as you can to get advice from them. But and he’s having conversations, he’s gaining understanding of what’s going on how he can position his solution, and finding a person that cat, which is what we’ve always done in sales, but he’s doing it digitally. The third thing that you need is content. Now this is not brochures and and brochure where because nobody’s interested, because we know what a brochure says. It says how great your company is. And we know you’re going to say that what we’re looking for is authentic content, something that that shows your personality, but shows that you know what you’re talking about. So for example, this, the example of an Amazon, a salesperson where the person said looked at their profile and said, You look interesting, you’re obviously from the content that we’re sharing, you understand the business issues that I’ve got. Now, we all know if you’ve been in sales or didn’t whether we’ve been in sales short or long. You know what the business issues that you need to resolve, write about it, talk about it, share articles about it, share videos about it. And the more variety on the content you can do the better. If you scale this up, scale it across as many people in your business through sales through HR, maybe through procurement and What happens is that you start what we call start what we call digital dominance. So this is understand it. So this is basically taking on all of the digital conversations and taking all the oxygen away from your competition. So this is so you can start off small with a pilot with sales and then build that up across the business. But ultimately, what happens is that in the network that you’re connected to all of the people that you’re connected to say, Tim Hughes is a really good guy. Because this his profile, he shares really interesting content. And when anybody is looking to buy something, your front of mind. But as you’re, as you’ve been building your network, and you and everybody else in your organization is building that network, your tentacles across the territory or the vertical, even you own it. And this is how people can become the market leader or the Employee of Choice in their particular market by owning that narrative, and owning the and owning the contacts and the connections through their network. Sorry, it’s a bit of a long answer to your question. But hope that gave you the example.

Gregorio Uglioni 26:09
I think this is great. And what you’re saying it totally makes sense. There’s three really important learnings out of this discussion out of this book. And you will need an example. And I want to reuse that. Tim is a good guy. Yes, Tim shared quite a lot of great content or a lot of great content on this podcast. And therefore I suggest also to do things to post it book this podcast and buy his latest book Social Selling, because I think it’s really really a good book. He showed that for the people watching the video for the people listening to this podcast, you will find also all the information in the in the show notes. Now we are coming to the end of this game. However, we still have some questions. And one question is about the future’s in 10 years from now. We close our eyes and we think about customer experience and digital what we are discussing about

Timothy Haughes 27:00
in 10 years time, there’s going to be a complete change in the way that we do business that you know using digital will be the norm. I think that what will happen is that we will transfer also into the metaverse and we’re currently doing quite a lot of experiments and research with the metaverse. We’ve actually just recently done a live stream in the metaverse and then streamed it back out the metaverse. And so there’s going to be some massive change. And digital is becoming going to becoming all pervasive. And by the way, we’re actually working with a bunch of people on Metaverse where you don’t need goggles. Which is really exciting. Because I think that the goggle thing is a barrier to it. But in 10 years time, there’s this, you won’t recognize business, just like when I first started in work, you know, we didn’t, there weren’t computers, and there wasn’t things like Excel and and Word and business has changed in the last 30 years. And it will get change, and it will accelerate as well. And we have to stay up, but stay up to date with it.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:07
Thank you very much. Now in the last three minutes of this of this game, pre questions with short answers, answer please. Is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience that helped you during your career or during your life?

Timothy Haughes 28:20
Yes. The book I would suggest is crossing the chasm by Jeffrey Moore. I think it’s a it’s a wonderful book for anybody that’s launching a business. Because in effect, it explains how to launch a business. And, and the way that people buy and what you need to do at certain stages. And, you know, I’ve launched five or so, products using that, using that method. And and I would recommend it, it’s I would recommend it to anybody. I’m an avid reader. I will read probably 3040 books this year, and have done for the last five years. One of the things I decided when I was CEO was I needed to keep up to date with information and I just read and read and read and read and read and read read. But from a if you’re launching a business, the Jeffrey Moore book is is fantastic.

Gregorio Uglioni 29:22
Thank you very much. And I think that will be the case if somebody would like to contact you what’s the best way?

Unknown Speaker 29:28
Best place probably giving me his own LinkedIn. I’m Timothy Hughes, which is HUGHES or Tim Hughes. You can probably search on either I am on Twitter, which is Timothy underscore Hughes, but LinkedIn is the best place. If you some please send me a connection request with a note and say I saw you on Greg’s podcast. Can we have a chat or can we connect or whatever? Because I get lots of connection requests from people that then start pitching to me so unless you put a note in It’s difficult to qualify, qualify you in or qualify you out.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:05
And then the question is spam or not, and therefore, yeah. Thank you very much. And now we’re coming to the last question is Tim’s golden nugget, it’s something that we discussed or something new that you would like to leave to do things.

Timothy Haughes 30:18
It’s something that we’re finding, which kind of plays on from what I talked about with the digital dominance piece. We’re asking a lot of people at the moment who is the leading technical, technical and commercial influencer in your market or vertical? And what what what we’re seeing in the b2c business to consumer space. Is Is there a very clear definition of what an influencer is, and they influence people. We don’t see that in the business to business space. And the thing is, is that being an influencer isn’t okay. It’s people go influencer and then roll their eyes and think it’s something to do with tiktok and dancing and stuff like that. Now, this is a way of you defining your market. So whether you’re a especially if you’re a small player, or even if you’re a big player, but if you’re a small player, and you are fighting against big players, this is how you can actually define the market, define the narrative. And what we’re what we’re doing is that we’re working with a number of organizations, where we’re using things like live streaming, as the ability to make that definition, and basically create an anchor in the markets. And then, you are the person that is that is defining that market. And the other people then have to shift to do what you’re what you’re what you’re doing. So, and we’re seeing that taking place now in b2b; People are starting to do it. And what went well, it’s quite funny to watch, because we’ve seen one of our clients do it. And then we’ve seen the competition go absolutely ballistic, trying to work out what to do. And it’s quite funny watching the competition, which in effect, you can see struggling and drowning, because they don’t understand the technicalities, or the science or the psychology behind what the clients don’t but I know so again, another long answer. But this thing about being the technical and commercial influence in b2b, we’re going to see a massive a massive uptake on that. Because people can use digital as a way of defining the market.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:28
Thank you very much, for you answer. I think the only thing that I can say after this golden nugget is thank you very much, Tim,

Timothy Haughes 32:36
for your Thank you, Greg, thank you for inviting me on. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Gregorio Uglioni 32:40
It was a great pleasure. And I hope that the audience enjoyed this discussion as much as I did. As you know, we love feedback, please feel free to contact the contact team. And let’s stay in touch. Thank you very much. Bye if you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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OKR: Objectives and Key Results with Carsten Ley – E96

Episode released on: 17. October 2022

OKR: Objectives and Key Results with Carsten Ley Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Carsten Ley

LinkedIn Headline: OKR | Project | Agile & Experience Consultant | Keynote Speaker for Engagement & Getting things done

Highlights:

  • 00: Game Start
  • 00:29 Carsten’s Introduction
  • 01:28 Carsten’s Values
  • 01:59 OKR Definition
  • 04:27 from KPIs to OKRs
  • 11:15 Starting with OKRs
  • 14:31 ORK with an A at the end “Actions”
  • 17:49 How is it possible to steer, measure and ensure that the results get really achieved?
  • 21:08 The right culture
  • 23:25 OKR in Customer Experience
  • 27:18 The future of CX
  • 28:42 Book Recommendation
  • 29:14 Contact Details
  • 29:29 Carsten’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Guest’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Inside Out by H. Manning and K. Bodine

Guest’s Golden Nuggets:

  • Don’t do things your people cannot take. I mean, go slow on the change management, just because there are fast topics like OKRs or AI topics for customers always measure the speed of the change management people can really digest.

Don’t do things your people cannot take. Go slow on the change mgmt, just because there are fast topics like OKRs or AI for customers always measure the speed of the change mgmt people can really digest. Carsten Ley on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast. Your host, Gregorio Uglioni will have small discussion with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope you will enjoy the next episode.

Ladies and gentleman today. It’s really a big, big pleasure. I am here with Carsten Ley. Hi, Carsten, how are you?

Carsten Ley 0:27
Hey, how are you?.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:29
Well, thank you very much. And thank you for taking time to discuss on the CX goalkeeper podcast about objectives and key results, but you are the expert in this topic. And therefore I think let’s start with the short introduction. And afterwards we go to the main topic. Carsten, could you please introduce yourself?

Carsten Ley 0:48
Yeah, and I’m from Germany. Originally. My name is Carsten Ley from South Germany. So I could also make the podcast here in German if we if we do but we do it in English, of course. I’m living since 10 years in Vietnam and Singapore and was working for different companies in project management and customer experience. And since three years, we run our own business transformation consulting companies, Asia PMO. And OKR,Asia previously, I was also in working in Mexico for Volkswagen and in Germany a long time for Deloitte Consulting.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:28
Thank you very much. And now we would like to learn a bit more really about you, Carsten and therefore, the usual questions. Question which values drive human life?

Carsten Ley 1:40
I mean, keep it short, keep it simple and keep it as direct as possible. Yeah. And I think that’s also how clients engage us for consulting. We are not, that’s why we don’t do really coaching because coaching is a little bit where you have to be more sensitive. I suppose we are. That’s why we are on the consulting side.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:59
Why don’t I and also, these questions are really short but extremely clear. And therefore let’s deep dive in our main topic. That’s OKR. And perhaps could you start with the definition? What are OKR?

Carsten Ley 2:15
Yeah, okay, it stands for objective and key results. And actually, we call it OKR A objective key results and action. I don’t know, maybe some of you also know that OKRA is a vegetable. So we call it the vegetable methodology, and it’s more from us. So there are three parts you set an objective is where you want to go, you set a key result how to measure it, and you do a lot of actions how to achieve that, right? So and they are the difference two KPIs is, is the objective because the key result, the measurable part is actually the same, like a KPI. Yeah, the big difference is that above this KR KPI, you send an inspirational objective in you lightning, people know in which direction you go, and why they should do something. So you’re not telling just somebody get 100,000 in sales, you also tell them why they should get 100,000 in sales, and for what you are using that if they achieve that. So it’s a little bit of more inspirational method. And the setup is also that you probably come up with the objectives, but you would ask your managers and later your team, so it’s more team based methodology to come up with key results and actions, right, and it’s not so top down so things can be discussed. That’s why we do it also in a workshop corrector. It’s not a one to one setup, like often they do in KPIs. So it’s a little bit of more inclusive, agile methodology and team based methodology, where you also have to stay the purpose of the numbers you want to achieve. And then you ideally, and that’s the a part, the action part, give people the freedom without micromanaging or giving the teams the freedom without micromanaging to achieve the key results and objectives. And what you do and the methodologies you weak you measure on a weekly or bi weekly basis. And of course, if people perform well, you will not micromanage. If they don’t perform well, you will ask them in so called stand ups, what works, what doesn’t work? Right. That’s a little bit what OKRs is about.

Gregorio Uglioni 4:27
Thank you very much. I think you gave a great introduction. And we have now quite a lot of topics to discuss or to understand better, and therefore I really like and enjoy this discussion. I know from our side of of the word Europe, that we are still quite a lot steered by KPIs and now you’re speaking about objectives and key results. Is there a way to move away from KPIs going in direction OKRs and I know this will be complete training. We have last few minutes, but perhaps So you can explain us the advantages and how to move there.

Carsten Ley 5:04
I made it for us, honestly, because we have clients in Europe and also in the US, but mainly in Asia. It’s not so location bound, it’s more industry bound, right? I mean, the more traditional the industry, the more they use KPIs, the more like new or agile or startup way the industry as the more they use OKRs. Right. So we see also a lot of companies in Europe now using OKRs. But why why why were there still a lot of KPIs around first, there is not really a push to say you need to do OKRs. I mean, it’s an agile methodology. And not every company is agile. Yeah. And if you if you know about waterfall project management, I mean, even sometimes in customer experience, I was running pMOS for customer experience in banks, often, the projects are very waterfall, right? I mean, you you implement something, and then you get a result, and there’s a plan for it. So why do you need OKRs? for that? No need? Right? So I would I would be very careful. Of course, I like OKRs a lot. But we also have clients who come to us who are very top down structure to our very bland structure, and who can forecast six to 12 months, right? So I always ask him, Why do you need au pairs? Mine? They come to us. They’re like, Oh, it’s OK. Ours, we want to try it. And we make a pilot with them. But the pilot we make with them is very result open. I might tell them, Okay, let’s try. Okay, ours. But we have now one big electronic clients, Japanese client? Yeah. They asked me why in the weekly team meetings based on OKRs. Their teams are not interacting, right, which is maybe one thing you should achieve, because OKR is for alignment, right? I mean, one of the main thing, why you want to discuss key result and objectives and the achievement in teams just because you want to ally. Now after four to six weeks working with them, I realized they all work very siloed every team member works almost alone. So I’m questioning them now after six to eight weeks, that’s really Okay, our work for you? Or shall we just stay in what you had before with KPIs? Because why would you force people to align and to discuss if they have nothing to align and discuss Right? Or if the culture is not really there yet? And then you also have to ask, and you know, change management very well? Do you really want to force people into change management? When things are going well, just to say, Oh, we ran OKR? Or you say no, it’s running? Well, everybody likes KPIs, and, and so on, right? Why? Why would you force it on people? Why would you tell people all you have to now discuss more, and I asked the client were to really the alignments happen? They say, Oh, the alignments happen in one to one meetings, when I said, How can I force now somebody’s not doing one to one meetings anymore? And to bring up everything in the group meeting if they don’t want it? Right. So I think we have to really understand what what works for companies OKRs, or KPIs. The other thing is what is a little bit of misunderstanding about OKRs, and KPIs, they are not mutually exclusive, we can run them together. So in a company, for example, in more agile or changing environments, like like, software development, or like product development, or even customer experience, let’s say we do Agile, we do a lot of iterations we try. We have two, three months, we try and then we check the results and Okay, ours works for that. And then you have maybe a factory floor, I would not bring OKRs to the factory floor. Yeah. Because, okay, ours also need a certain kind of commitment and a certain kind of engagement of the people. When I was in my last job before consulting, I was vice president of customer experience and customer service at Lazada. It’s Alibaba bought ecommerce, which was started by Rocket Internet, which some of you probably know, in the the region there.

And I was at the same time and charge for customer experience and customer service. And if you know both areas, you know that they are very, very different. Customer Experience is more like an agile, high qualified, project driven environment. And customer service is like a hotline factory. Even with we had 70 80% outsource we have very hard KPIs, right. I mean, KPIs on calling on, on on satisfaction and so on. Right and When you look at these two jobs, and the people who were there in customer service, this was a trap for people who wanted to work, but not really being engaged, they campaigned hours and then get home, a lot of them have families. And that’s okay. You have a lot of people who work like that. And you have to accept that. But I’m not sitting with my ces agents to gather every week and make a daily stand up or weekly stand up and ask them for improvements. Because they also say, I get so little paid here, it’s not my job to think about improvements, like a manager, right? I mean, you can do it voluntarily, but not for us. Now in the CX team, of course, this was very OKRs driven, where I wanted ideas from my researchers and from my managers and say, Hey, we have done this three months that what should we do the next three months? So even inside a company, you can decide which ones are more OKRs, which is a more KPI. It’s, it’s similar along, where do you use agile management? And where do you use project management? So traditional waterfall project management, it’s a very similar thought or which part is purely operational. Yeah, and which part is really innovative. And OKRs is a little bit more for the innovative part.

Gregorio Uglioni 11:17
It’s make it even more interesting, because you’re saying it’s for more than enough innovative initiatives. And it’s inspirational. Perhaps, could you make an example a tangible example that people can can really understand how to set up an OKR. How would you start How would you define that?

Carsten Ley 11:38
Yeah, I mean, the smart way how to set up OKRs is I mean, you always have to start somewhere with a strategy like Northstar mission vision strategy, right. And that’s also part we do a lot because a lot of power out is, especially startups come to us and say we want OKRs. And they even don’t have a strategy. Yeah. So they don’t know what they are doing the next two, three years. But how can you have one year or three months goals if you don’t have a little bit of vision and a longer thing? So we do the strategy with them first, right? And then for example, one of our clients happy fresh in Indonesia, it’s E grocery. I don’t know they are there are some also big E groceries in Europe, right. And they made it in a very smart way. Instead of what a lot of companies doing wrongly, they set the objectives app by sales, objective marketing objective operation objective, which kills the cross functionality and the alignment and working together and OKRs. This client set it up by value streams, right? One value stream was of course customer experience. Another value stream was they wanted to have physical happy, fresh supermarkets like Amazon goes to brick and mortar, they also went to go to brick and mortar, right. And then when he had done they had as an overall objective, like a value stream or yearly objective. In the value streams, we broke it down to quarterly. Yeah. So for example, happy fresh supermarket. I mean, first, you have to do subcontracting and basic research and whatever I mean, one quarter or maybe two quarters, preparation steps. And then when you have these objectives in the prep and save preparation steps, you break down the key results, two different teams. That means all the different teams work against this one objective. Yeah, and in the OPR tool, what they use, you can see who has to achieve what by when that the whole thing works together. So that was a very smart approach. Right? So what we also fully recommend not to set up Okay, our departmental structure, because agile doesn’t go anything by you know, when you do a squat or Spotify model or what you probably know you’re not working in strict departmental structure anymore. It’s possible I see a lot of OKRs which are set up like that, but it kills the idea. So if you do if you map out the value streams, so customer experience is another one right? So who works for customer experience, sales marketing, customer experience team, the front end drivers, and then you can say I take even the KPIs and call them K RS because as a consultant I don’t care for me K RS and KPIs. Maybe other consultants will tell you the same. But for me, K RS and KPIs are so similar. I mix them below the objectives as long as it is what clear what you measure, and as long as clear against which objective it goes. Right? That’s it.

Gregorio Uglioni 14:31
Super interesting, because in this case, you’re trying to eliminate the silos mentality, and all the issues that you have customer contacting the marketing department getting a different handling, than contacting the customer service, and all these different issues. It’s really, really interesting. And you mentioned something that that it’s also relevant. You said OKR A with actions. Could you please elaborate also a bit a bit on this “A”?

Carsten Ley 15:00
Yeah, I mean for us, okay, our KPIs are first planning tools, right. But blending, as we all know, doesn’t lead you to anything. Right. And, and I know that a little bit for from, from where I come from from Germany, Germany is very good on planning, but sometimes not so good and execution. In Asia, people maybe don’t blend so thoroughly, right. But they execute unbelievably fast. And then they just improve, right? It’s a completely different mindset here are where we live, right? So, for us, the OKRs is planning at the beginning of the quarter, but then you should, you should set them up very quickly. So we are also not a big fan to come up with a lot of clients, ask them, How can I get the perfect OKRs I say, it doesn’t matter if you have the perfect objectives and key results, it’s matter how you work against them. So what matters are your actions activity projects below. And then we measure the result of these activities or projects, right. And that’s also a mentality thing, because a lot of companies have Action Task Management, I mean, you know, towards like, monday.com, or asana and stuff like that. And people, and I was working for a bank in Germany, you know, I mean, you have like 20 tasks on your desk, and Friday 4pm, you go home, because you finished your tests, but you don’t have in your mindset, if you achieve the result, because it’s not your responsibility as an employee, your responsibility is to tick off this 20 tests. And that’s wrong in an OPR methodology in a more mature environment, we want everybody down to the employee responsible for results achievements. That’s why we have a connection between the overall objective, the key result, how we measure it, and the actual. So if you tell me, I’m in charge of marketing, and I did my 50, Facebook posts this this week, I will not tell you why Oh, please go home. You because You have done your 50. Facebook, have I asked you what is the result we wanted out of it? How many engagement how many likes how many qualified leads, and if you tell me Friday 1pm, you are way behind VBA be on this key results, then maybe you don’t go home Friday 1pm. Or you should not as a good employee, you should say, Okay, I did my task, but I didn’t achieve my result. And this is what we want to change. Now you also understand that with a certain kind of off like, very repetitive task, it’s not possible. That’s why we have KPIs because people are task oriented. But in a more qualified environment, or in an in an agile environment, you want people be responsible for results on all level.

Gregorio Uglioni 17:49
You did a great example that perhaps helped us also to understand that you mentioned this 20 Facebook post, and and based on Friday, you check that the tasks are done, but the results are not achieved. How is it possible to steer, measure and ensure that then the results get to get gets really achieved?

Carsten Ley 18:14
I mean, what what do we do in a three months normally, okay, three months, but you can do up to six months for not so agile a little bit slower result companies, right or more traditional companies. You have to agree at the beginning of the quarter, what is the metric or even like a KPI you measure against right? So if somebody asks tells me I can do 100 or 50 Facebook posts a week, then I would ask, What can we achieve with that, and then you give me an estimation, and a lot of staff fields, were also managers feels very uncomfortable with that. Because it’s very easy to say what you can get off your desk, but it’s sometimes very difficult to say what you can achieve with that. That’s why okay, I should also not be at the beginning when you introduce it. Bonus or performance because that hinders the Okay, I think so you want people to be bold, and say make a guess what you can achieve monthly or in the three months with real work, right? Make a guess. And if you don’t achieve it, and you have a good explanation for that it will not affect your performance. So be bold on that. Right. And, and that’s what we what we want to do, right? But what is very important is that what do you want? Do you agree at the beginning of the quarter should stay? So you cannot come after one month and say oh, suddenly I want more. So for me OKR is not only what a lot of people understand that some crazy startup founders, like Elon Musk say every year by companies goes to the moon or close to the Mars even they haven’t gotten to the moon yet. And I’m not sure if that’s still very, very motivating, right? I mean, if you tell every year we go to MRI scan every year you don’t go to the Mars, I mean, it’s a, it’s a what we call a very, very stretch target, right? It gets a little bit tiring. Or in companies, you know, they always say we want to be number one and you are in the top 20. Like, what do you say number one, it’s Give, give me something I can achieve, right? Or I can come close. And then I go to the next step. Don’t make it always so topspot. So what we want is that this is an agreement where we say, okay, you as a team, or ideally, as a team, or, as manager, you said, you can achieve that. Now we look week by week, you do your work, and we measure week by week, if you get closer to that, and then it’s a little bit of linear game. I mean, you can imagine if you have a three months, okay are after one month, you should be in around 30 33%. If it’s linear, sometimes you work a lot, and then it pops out. But in a linear game, if we do this weekly, okay, our reviews with our client. And after one month, I have a lot which stands still and 0%, then you would ask what’s happening there, right?

Gregorio Uglioni 21:07
Thank you very much. What you’re saying is it helps to create value continuously. And to drag that over, over over time. And basically, you mentioned several times on one side startups that you’re helping, but also, let’s say bigger companies, or established companies that are using them. And you mention one words that I think stand out, it’s also mentality, and in which type of culsture Is it possible, really, to leverage and exploit the power of OKR?

Carsten Ley 21:43
Yeah, I mean, you need a culture where you want, where you first want feedback from your people, right? I mean, even if, as a management or as a top leader, you sit there and you tell me your objectives for this year, and then I break them down with your team, I still want that the team can challenge you and say, Hey, this objective doesn’t make much sense. You know, in a lot of KPI or in banking environments, you even don’t know the top leader, you just get it trickled down. And you cannot say so we want a little bit, also a feedback culture, right. And the other thing is also, that it’s like, that’s like a deal between the teams and the leaders, right? I mean, if they agree on certain numbers on uncertain achievement, the team does the best to achieve that. But the leaders don’t come after one or two months and make the number higher, which I see in a lot of startups, right. I mean, they go, they don’t, so it should be a mutual deal. Right. The other thing, also very important on team level is, if, for example, after one month, we don’t see any achievements, we would challenge the team to change their actions or to change their activities. So you need a very high flexibility. I mean, in this in this electronic client, where I have at the moment, I asked for a change. And they said, Yeah, they need now to three weeks to discuss if we make the change or not. And I’m like, you know, that’s even big companies can be a little bit more startup like that. You say, Okay, we realize we went in the wrong direction. Let’s stop it. Let’s do something completely else. And, yeah, and a lot of companies cannot do that yet.

Gregorio Uglioni 23:26
Thank you, but I think this is in the direction we should go and adding on your target and clear vision of what we want and out to achieve that, now that we are coming to an end of this main topic OKR and actions, perhaps Ow, is it possible to leverage OKR oats in customer experience? And I’m really thinking about, we discussed really a lot about customer experience, but their results was in this surveys, customer satisfaction and so on, are not represented representing really everything that we are discussing, because it’s a lot of discussion, and less really doing what what’s your view on it?

Carsten Ley 24:05
Yeah, I mean, it’s very funny because we, we already did customer experience consulting and project financial management consulting when we started with OKRs. And then we realized, I mean, Project agile management is it’s helpful for the actions because we need to achieve it. Like strategy consulting is very important to know where you create the OKRs come from. And then we realize that normally we say in OKRs, you have up to five objectives, right? Maximum five objectives because you want to focus in a quarter on each level maximum five. Now, if you look at company level, there’s always a profit of objective. There’s often a productivity objective, right? That you want to make something faster or process better or whatever, right. And then, and then we see customer experience and employee experience objectives. Why? Because the question is always, what are you doing the next three months? What are you achieving the next three months. So if you are a customer experience focused company like happy fresh in Indonesia, of course, they have to do something the next three months, which gifts achievements, so the customer. So one objective is around customer experience. And then of course, now even more pushed in times of COVID. And all the crisis that people are leaving, you have as a fourth or fifth objective, the employee experience objective, right? Where you say, what do I do actively for my people the next three months, right. And this is where we have normally CX and E X objectives inside. And then we also do key results below. So CX, as we already say, maybe you have a customer experience department who takes some of the key results, but will also delegate them right to sales, to marketing to development. I mean, it’s the whole end to end customer experience. And in employee experience, I’m very worried that not HR takes all the key results that also other teams take key results, right and are responsible to lift the employee experience. Right. So that’s, that’s where it comes together. And what is very funny, when we come up with this question, sometimes when we go to the OKRs, and say, Where is your customer experience? One, right? It’s your employee experience? Well, sometimes you get a very honest answers, especially from startup founders, we are not doing anything for customer or employees the next three months, which is not bad, but it’s just very honest. So the team knows that the next three months are mainly internal or sales focus, especially in a crisis situation, right? I mean, maybe you really, almost go bankrupt, right? Then you say, Okay, we really the only thing is sales and productivity. And that’s it. But naturally, in a long run, there should always be a customer experience objective, especially when a company tells you in their culture and blah, blah, blah, mission, we are customer centric, and you know that they tell you they are customer centric, and then you see nothing and do gas, and you’re like,

Gregorio Uglioni 27:18
yeah, thank you, you brought a lot of clarity around. Okay, OKR. And now we are coming to the last question that I have in on this main topic. Let’s close our eyes and think we are in 10 years from now, what we are discussing about in customer experience.

Carsten Ley 27:37
10 years is difficult for me, because in Asia, we are a little bit fast on that, right. What we see in customer experience, maybe the next two, three years is a lot of technology intake, which we already see. I’m still not sure if the customer wants to all that, right. I mean, maybe you’re right, it takes up to 10 years. So technology will take or AI chatbots automated answering a lot of self service, which I mean, I’m 47 If you give me technology with self service, I still think it’s a bad service. Not I’m happy about a self service. But young people are probably more happy about that. So I think the next 10 years, there will be a very high technology push. And the main problem is not the technology, the problem is that people will adapt to that. And they you have to be very sensitive to go in the right pace. Maybe technologies may be faster, that people will keep up with the technology.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:42
Thank you very much. And now we are coming to the last three minutes of our game of this episodes. And there are three questions for you. The first one, is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience that asked you during your career or during your life?

Carsten Ley 28:59
Yeah, what what helped me a lot lately because I was also doing the cxpa exam. I was very practical with a lot of give a lot of examples was the book inside out Yeah, it’s a customer experience book. Very, very helpful.

Gregorio Uglioni 29:14
Thank you very much. And if somebody would like to contact you, and I’m quite sure people will contact you because it’s really interesting what you’re explaining.

Carsten Ley 29:23
Yeah, it’s LinkedIn, Carsten Ley, or Carsten at Asia pmo.com.

Gregorio Uglioni 29:29
Thank you very much. I will put all this information in the contact details in the show notes. And the last question is Carsten’s golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you would like to leave to the audience.

Carsten Ley 29:43
I think the same what I said in OKRs and in in the technology for customer experience, don’t do things your people cannot take. I mean, go slow on the change management, just because there are past topics like OKRs or or AI topics for customers always measure the speed of the change management people can really digest. Yeah.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:11
Thank you very much, Carsten, it was really a great pleasure to have you on the six goalkeeper podcast. I say thank you to you. Please stay with me. And to the audience. Thank you very much. It was again a great pleasure. And if you have any feedback, feel free to contact me or contact Carlton directly. Happy to share epic discuss, and happy to deep dive in some topics. Thank you very much. Have a nice day. Bye bye.

Carsten Ley 30:36
Thank you.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:38
If you enjoyed this episode, please share the Word of Mouth subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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Be Your Team’s Hero with Adam Toporek – E95

Episode released on: 10. October 2022

Be Your Team's Hero with Adam Toporek Customer Experience Goals with the CX Goalkeeper

The CX Goalkeeper had the great opportunity to interview Adam Toporek

LinkedIn Headline: Helping organizations win with experience! ► Customer Service Expert ✪ Keynote Speaker ✪ Trainer ✪ Strategic Advisor 

Highlights:

  • 00:00 Game Start
  • 00:50 Adam’s introduction
  • 03:09 Which values drive you in life?
  • 04:24 it’s never too late to win with CX
  • 07:35 how do you define defense and attack in customer service?
  • 09:38 how is it possible to prevent hassle for customers?
  • 14:02 employee empowerment
  • 19:08 3S Process and the CATER Process
  • 22:52 Employees remuneration
  • 26:13 The Future of CX
  • 28:32 Adam’s book suggestion
  • 29:35 Adam’s contact details
  • 30:01 Adam’s Golden Nugget

and much more

Adam’s Contact Details:

His book suggestion:

  • Atomic Habits by James Clear

Adam’s Golden Nuggets:

  • Organizations that can generate positive emotions through their experiences that can do that consistently and that can make memorable experiences, even if they’re small, are the ones who are going to win now, in five years, and in 10 years.

Organizations that can consistently generate positive emotions through their experiences and that can make them memorable, even if they’re small, are the ones who are going to win now, in 5 years, and in 10 years @adamtoporek on the CX Goalkeeper Podcast

#customerexperience #leadership #cxgoalkeeper #cxtransformation #podcast

Transcription:

Gregorio Uglioni 0:00
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CX goalkeeper podcast. Your host, Gregorio Uglioni will have small discussions with experts, thought leaders, and friends on customer experience, transformation, innovation and leadership. I hope you will enjoy the next episode.

Ladies and gentleman, tonight it’s really a big, big pleasure because Adam Toporek together with me. Hi Adam, How are you?

Adam Toporek 0:27
Greg. Oh, yeah, so great to be here.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:31
Thank you very much for your time. It’s really an outstanding opportunity for me and for for the audience of the CX goalkeeper podcast to have you on this show. Therefore, thank you very much for your time.

Adam Toporek 0:43
Thank you. It’s pleasure to be here. I was excited to talk about CX and all of our great topics.

Gregorio Uglioni 0:50
With what what you said, I think the game can start now. And we’ll start always with the short introduction. Adam, could you please introduce yourself?

Adam Toporek 1:00
Sure, I am a customer service, keynote speaker, trainer and author. I am a third generation generation entrepreneur. So I grew up in and around small business, I tend to bring that lens to my experience work. I’ve worked with big companies, but I don’t come from a big company background. So that I think informs a lot of how I approach CX. And how I approach the idea that we are all operating in the customer experience with limited resources. And the customer experience has to be delivered with that. And that’s a very natural perspective for me, because as an entrepreneur or as a small business person, you are always facing limited resources.

Gregorio Uglioni 1:44
And yes, I think this is extremely important. And if you are speaking about resources, I would like to mention two things. The first one is your outstanding book, be your customer hero. I think this is a really a great source of insights. For everybody in the customer experience community, we will put the link in the show notes. And I told you I will ask about that Crack the Customer code, we are speaking roughly about 500 episodes. This is a great success. Congratulation.

Adam Toporek 2:12
Thank you. Yeah, we are going to hit 500 episodes in our upcoming season. And it’s been a really long run with Jeannie and, you know, successful. And we truly enjoyed it. I mean, it’s been just fantastic. I know, you know, Jeanne, as well, my partner is uni Walters. And we just have great chats. And, you know, we’ve really been able to explore a lot of different avenues of CX, which I’m sure you’ve had that experience to hear with the CX goalkeeper podcast. And it’s one of the great things about having a podcast, it’s just getting to have these discussions and all these different perspectives. And then of course, the book, I wrote the book, and it’s been a while now, okay, about 2015. And that came from my small business background from my retail background, I wrote a book that was like, What will teach my people, my frontline people at 85% of what they need to know to be great at customer service. And I couldn’t find it. So I wrote it.

Gregorio Uglioni 3:09
Thank you very much. I think that’s that’s really great. And now we would like to learn a bit more about you. Which values drive you in life.

Adam Toporek 3:19
Values. That’s an interesting question. Definitely say, empathy is a big value. I truly believe and I don’t know, if you’ve read Stephen Covey’s very famous book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I think it was Habit number five, which is first seek to or seek first to understand or first seek to understand him, I have that backwards. But I truly believe in that and trying to understand the other person’s perspective trying to understand where they’ve come from. And I believe in that in life, as well as of course, and customer experience and customer service. That is a crucial perspective. I also believe in contribution. I believe in trying to give back in my own ways to the things I think that are important. And I that’s where I say I’m a little hokey sorry. I believe in the core values love, like, just trying to be more open to people and to giving love and receiving love. And I know that’s a very vague word, and it’s going to mean different things to different people. But it is one of the values that drives me.

Gregorio Uglioni 4:24
Thank you very much. And we love Heros and tonight we will also speak about be your team’s hero, how to lead a world class customer experience team and therefore let’s really kick off the game. I follow you I listened to your keynote speeches and you’re saying something it’s never too late to win with CX. However, what I am seeing in customer service and customer experience is that we are still facing a lot of distraction is still possible.

Adam Toporek 4:56
Yes. However, like in any keynote speech, you know, Sometimes you’re making big bold statements. And there’s a couple of bullet points underneath that are. But in this case, but in this case, so let’s talk about those. For the first thing I do whenever a client or anybody calls me asked me about CX or my services, or what I do. First thing I ask is, what industry are you in? We don’t tell I feel that the people in the CX space don’t talk enough about how different CX is in different industries, how that changes, there are fundamentals that are true across every industry. But how the industry very much changes how you’re going to approach certain topics, how you are going to use CX as a competitive advantage or not. If you are a manufacturer, and you are a monopoly, then you don’t need cx to be your competitive advantage. You don’t you you’ve got the market, it’s fine. It’s why one of the reasons government, customer service has always sort of been legendarily bad because there is no competition, there is nowhere else to go. So I start with that. So when we say it’s never too late to win, we’ll see x one depends on your industry. And there are other industries in which CX is the gap is being narrowed. Right. So if we look at product or service, those things are being narrowed, it’s they’re becoming homogenized, particularly in technology technology, you can only sustain an advantage for so long, the gap will eventually closed. So what happens then you have to find a way to use CX as your competitive advantage, you have to find a way that when technology is your base, you are providing something else that differentiates you from the competitor, preferably something the customer wants, but if you’re, you know, brilliant, like Steve Jobs, maybe you can tell the customer what they want. That’s a little more rare. It’s better to do market research in general. So I think, you know, when you look at it, I would just close with this thought, I think in most industries in which we talk about the great majorities, particularly b2c industries, CX is still the most the primary source of competitive advantage, certainly over the long term, and it’s never too late to win, you can be better you can improve and you can catch up to the cost depends, I mean, it’s hard to depending on how far back you are and how far ahead they are. But you very oftentimes can if not catch up to the competition, then close the gap.

Gregorio Uglioni 7:35
Thank you very much. And you said that it’s never too late to win. But basically, to win, you need to attack and to defend, and therefore, because we are on a soccer pitch, how do you define defense and attack in customer service?

Adam Toporek 7:51
Customer service or experience? Because if I did both, it’d be a little different. I think

Gregorio Uglioni 7:57
The one that you like most,

Adam Toporek 7:59
say offensive defense? Well, I’d like both, I’ll do both, we’ll do them quickly. So I’d say you know, in customer service, particularly, you know, I would be I would sort of consider a defense and offense and defense is really reactive service. Right. So when we add it’s everything we teach when we trained on reactive or offense is proactive service, because that is generally what separates you from the competition, even more than the reactive service. And that is, you know, truly looking at all the ways you can be proactive, all the ways you can get ahead of issues, check in with customers to anticipate issues or prevent them. And just to also create experiences, or the experience level, I’d broaden it a little bit, I’d say you know, the defensive idea is a little bit more, making sure the bases are covered. You are meeting or exceeding expectations. Your journey is hassle free. Right? You are consistent then offense is okay. That to me I talk a lot about customer emotion. And I think what the research has shown in most recent years is that customer emotion is the single primary determinant of experience results. So when you look at emotion I that’s where I think I started thinking about offense a little bit more how do we create a create experiences that create emotionally resonant positive moments that are going to actually stick with the customer and make them stick with you?

Gregorio Uglioni 9:38
Thank you very much. And thank you for being proactive and answering the question from a customer service and customer experience point of view. And what you’re saying with emotion, think about the stadium around a few how many emotions the fans are spreading for their teams at the end for the company setting that you not Eating but playing that you mentioned, you mentioned something as some fried. And I think how is it possible to prevent hassle for customers? What’s your view on that?

Adam Toporek 10:11
Well, it’s very possible and it’s very hard. And it’s more important than ever. So one of the things we have learned, you know, this was a trend before I was talking about hassle. The effortless experience came out, a lot of people started talking about effort and friction. I will say I talked about hassle. And one of the reasons I talked about hassled was because to me, hassle is the emotional response, the emotional response is more important friction and effort or what lead to somebody feeling hassled. So to me, effort, and friction are more the mechanical things we need to do to create a hassle free experience just to sort of clarify our terms. It has become more important than ever, since the pandemic, right, it was already trending up, people do not want to be bothered, they want their easy button, they want their Netflix, they want their movie to start in five seconds. And now with the pandemic even more. So now, I don’t even want to go to the store for my groceries, bring my groceries to me. Right? So when you look at that, one of the things you have to look at is what are the drivers? What are the things that drive hassle, there are a number of things, I’ll just mention a couple of the big, big rocks that we attack. One is technology, technology is the biggest tool we have now to reduce hassle, right to create easy experiences, I just want to press a button and my everything appears that I want in the world. But there’s a lot of old technology, there’s a lot of technology that doesn’t speak to itself. within corporations, there’s a lot of outdated technology that was built for differing expectations are for a differing world. So technology is both one of the biggest sources of hassle and one of the biggest reducers of hassle. The next one, I always call these the OG of hassle, the policies and procedures. Those have been around since the dawn of time, and I came up with a term of many years ago called rule creation. And that means that left alone, every organization tends to, you know, accrete or accumulate more rules, right, we never get less. And the only way to get less is to actually focus on it and to go do this policy, does this procedure still serve us is the reason we created it still valid? What is what does it mean in the context of the customer experience we have today and the customer experience we want our customers to have today. So policies and procedures are a huge source of hassle, both and this is a another layer to it, both in CX and an E x. Because often the policies and procedures are a hassle for the employees, or hassle for your team make it difficult to do their job make it so they’re going to disappoint a customer and have to manage the feedback or the blowback. And then the last thing I’d add, I’d say, No, there’s always CX design. Of course, you know, making sure the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. But I’d say training. And this is a little bit counterintuitive, but training is a lack of good writing good soft skills, training for the parts of the journey that are human is a huge source of hassle. People who don’t know where to find information, people who don’t know how to manage a conversation, people who do not know how to handle a difficult conversation. All of these things can be a huge source of hassle, right? We’ve all had that experience where somebody didn’t, didn’t know what to do, or didn’t know even where to send us to get it done. So you’ve looked at the there’s a lot of other drivers of hassle, but those are really three big ones tech policies, procedures in the human training.

Gregorio Uglioni 14:02
Thank you very much. And I think you are touching an extremely important topic you spoke about E ex employee experience. And and this is I think, extremely key. You are sharing both to your view on empowering employees. And I always make my really small example. Think about a player on the pitch trying to score a goal and you need to go to the coach and ask May I go in this direction and do this before trying to score the goal instead of giving them the opportunity to score the goal? What’s your view on that?

Adam Toporek 14:36
So they were talking about employee empowerment or soccer player football player in your case environment. That’s a great that’s a great example great by the way, you know that is the point. When you look at reducing hassle for the customer, let’s start with that. I’ll work back to the empowerment bar. When you look at reducing customer the customer the immediate source of hassle is you cannot give them what they want at the moment they want it. Right. So if I need to transfer you that is, by definition, a bad experience, that may not be a horrible experience. But it’s by definition, an experience they did not want. It’s an experience that is delayed, it is a form of hassle. So every time we create the conditions for our employees, where they are going to end up transferring or having to get back to somebody, or whatever it may be, it’s going to create hassle in both on both sides, right. And also, you know, I always call them power to me of how government is the Win Win Win of customer experience. Those are the employees when the customers win, and the company wins, because everything I just described costs, time and money. Every delay every time you have to involve three more people to get something done. It involves time. And time is money. So a few things we did one is you just have to loosen the reins, a lack of empowerment comes from fear. Okay. I mean, that is that is I am scared what is going to happen if I give this power. And that fear is actually justified. It’s not an unfounded fear. We’ve all seen viral stories of, you know, the employee who got mad on their last day and tweeted on the franchise, or, you know, big companies, social media, right. I mean, there are risks to empowerment. And I think you’ll probably find I have, I’m the only one I’ve met one of the only CX people that we talked, we tend to talk empowerment, or most people tend to talk about running various sort of glowing, like, I don’t know, metaphysical terms, like, oh, just empowering employees, the world is going to be a wonderful place, and everybody’s gonna be happy. I try to counsel people to look at it this way. employee empowerment is a risk reward analysis. That is that simple. That’s not very romantic, I guess, or whatever the word might be. But it is a risk reward analysis. So if you have if you’re Walmart or Target, you’re this is an extreme example, you’re not going to empower your cashier to send wire transfers from the from the company account. Okay, extreme example. But the point is, there are always limits to empowerment a lot of people talk about, don’t have any limits, let your employees do whatever, no. But you do want to evaluate what is the what empowerment do they need, both for their experience, as we talked about, and for the customer experience, and what is the risk of giving that? Alright, so it truly is a risk reward analysis. After that, there’s there’s different ways to empower employees, you horizontally, vertically, all this type of stuff, the one thing I would counsel is to understand that if you do not have a culture of empowerment, and this is where that training comes in one, you have to train them how to use it, you have to give them the skills, so they’re comfortable to use it. But if you don’t have a culture of empowerment, you’re going to want to make sure they understand that we are changing our culture, we are changing how we approach we have we have locked you down like this. Right. And now we are going to loosen the reins. And I found this out when I first empower people in my small business, I’ll wrap up with this, you know, we sort of long story but I basically sort of woke up and said, What are we doing this is ridiculous. Let’s empower people to give refunds for this like $49 I’m wasting 10 people’s time and ticking off the customer. You know, what I found was they didn’t do it. We gave them the power and they didn’t use it. Why? Because they had been locked down for so long. And if you look at the academic literature, there is actual actually a difference between actual empowerment and psychological empowerment. So you want to make sure if you’re if you’re coming from like, Okay, I heard I heard the CX goalkeeper podcast and I want to empower my people, well then remember it’s going to take some time and you’ve got to really make them feel safe and make them under understand that they can use the empowerment you’re not going to eat their lunch if they make a mistake.

Gregorio Uglioni 19:07
Thank you very much and what what you’re saying it totally makes sense. And I think we need to give to employees the opportunity to to have to improvise to find solutions for customers, but customer can be difficult. And I think also there you have a really nice methods your 3S process that that you shared in the last in several presentation. Could you please elaborate because on that?

Adam Toporek 19:36
Oh, absolutely. So in the book you see behind maybe your customers here I actually have a different process it’s called cater see a te R and what I realized was a few things. One you know everybody like you know speakers and all we all have to have our like little branded process and fine. Nobody’s gonna remember that when a customer is yelling at them. No one’s gonna remember control they knowledge, it’s just not reality. We talked about human emotion, I talk a lot about psychology and sort of neuroscience. So I was looking for a process that really was something somebody could use, I really believe nobody is ever able to use these little processes in the heat of the moment. So the three S’s literally actually two things. So we start with step one, soothe the psyche. And psyche is a fancy word for mind, I just needed something to go with the s, alright. And all that means is you have to resolve the emotion before you resolved the operational issue, or problem or challenges. And particularly if we’ve done service for a while we’ve seen the problem, we jump right in, we don’t even want to let them finish. Because we know we have a stack on the phone we like okay, I know what this is, I want to fix it. One we’re not always right. And that’s always bad when we jump in. And we’re not right, because we haven’t heard all the details, too. If somebody has gone through, let’s just make an example, you know, three different four different people to get to you. Two of those people were not very nice. And they still haven’t gotten their issue resolved is resolving their issue. The only problem now, though, they’re mad, they’re upset, you’ve had a bad experience. So soothe the psyche is essentially solve for the emotion, you have to listen, you have to understand you have to take the time, that’s sometimes a balancing act, when you have a full queue, you have to take the time to make sure they’re heard. And that you’re addressing the emotional component, solve the screw up, this is step to soothe the psyche solve the screw up. So the screw up is what it sounds like, fix the operational issue, whatever it is in however you can. That’s not always a screw up. But for the customer, they think it’s a screw up. So solve the screw up. And like I said, it’s really a two step process in the heat of the moment. It’s really, it’s that simple. You need to remember to solve for the emotion before solving the operational issue or sort of doing them together. The third step is actually not for the heat of the moment. The third step is for after it’s what you and I would know as closing the loop, it’s set up the success. Right? It that means understanding that one, we may not have resolved all the emotions, we might have resolved them for the moment, but they’re still lingering or whatever to the operational issue. We may not have completely resolved it or, okay, we put in the ticket for the New Product to Ship but did it shipped? Did they get it? Are they happy with it? Was it broken? So set up the success means being proactive, as we talked about and checking in and closing that loop. And making sure everything is resolved emotionally, and operationally.

Gregorio Uglioni 22:52
Thank you very much. And I think what what you were saying shares and really a nice process, what we would expect from that the best employees. And basically, we know that we are in a phase where this we have a resource issue. We don’t find employees, I think in the in the US but also on our side in Europe. And basically there are quite a lot of discussion about increased salaries of customer service employees, often they are the less paid, because they are on the below on the bottom of the pyramid. And what’s your view? Can we really solve these issues by increasing salaries?

Adam Toporek 23:31
Cool. I don’t know that I have an answer for that. Because that really gets into specific market dynamics of every economic market. That, you know, I’ll make some general comments, which is this, I think one of the things we’re going to see, and this is a problem and a different or a challenge and a different way is you know, these jobs are going to be less and less done by humans in the next five or 10 years. They’re going to be replaced the jobs that are left will be higher skilled, and probably will demand and deserve. Well, let’s not use deserve because we could argue the jobs today deserve better pay, but will demand better pay will have a market value that draws better pay. And I think that’s going to happen now, the challenge of course is there will just be less of these jobs, there will be more more be more premium, right that will be more sought after. And that will be very difficult because what will happen is the robots will solve the easy stuff. And the humans will be there for the more challenging things and the more difficult thing so it will be truly like you know, tier whatever we might call tier two or tier three level service, right? That when we when we when we escalate nowadays, that department will still be there and be more trained on You know, I think service is changing in a lot of ways. And I think there are ways but this is, you know, this is not going to happen in call centers, this is not going to happen in certain contexts. But in other contexts, maybe retail or maybe entertainment, there are ways to have service jobs that are fun and enriching, and are more, where you’re providing an experience to think of some of not all the employees at Disney. So I think there will hopefully be some more jobs in that sense, because, you know, companies are retail companies, brick and mortar companies are leaning into how do we create experiences in the real world that make people want to show up that make them not want to just click a button. And what I think we found with the pandemic, and the sort of opening up as the pandemic has shifted, is that people who have crave that human interaction have still crave human experiences, the obituary for the death of retail was a little premature. Not for all retail, but just for retail in general. So I think, hopefully that answered the question.

Gregorio Uglioni 26:13
Yes, I think it’s, it’s your view. And I think that’s, that’s what you’re saying what you’re saying, totally makes sense. And basically, you’re already speaking about robots, and possible as salaries, changes in future. And therefore my question is, now we are in future, in 10 years from now, we’ll quickly close our eyes. And what we’re speaking in 10 years from now about customer experience.

Adam Toporek 26:39
Yeah, I think the pace of change in artificial intelligence is incredible. What, just what you and I have probably seen in the last five years how good AI has gotten. It’s a little scary if you watch the Terminator movies, but it is incredible from a business perspective. And almost certainly with the move towards digital digital transformation that was just accelerated by the pandemic. Incredibly, I mean, it just so I remember, I can’t remember which CEO CEO was, but once he said, Yeah, we’re doing our, our eight, we’re doing our we’re trying to do our five year plan and 18 months now. Right? I mean, it just truly accelerated everything. And so I think that is just going to be fed by what’s happening with big data and AI, we are going to have a service economy that is you’re going to be talking to avatars you’re going to be talking to, you know, Hi, I’m Greg, your FedEx avatar, or whatever. And, you know, that’s gonna, that’s gonna be the experience. And what’s going to happen is, you know, we talked about human emotion and customer emotion. It’s going to, you know, we talked about this as well, technology, the gap always shortens, right, I mean, somebody will jump ahead, they’re going to catch up, you know, Tesla jumps ahead with electric cars, all the other car makers are starting to catch up. So what’s gonna happen is, there’s gonna be no competitive advantage in the tech stack. Competitive Advantage is going to be just as it is now in the human experience and what they can do to differentiate and make it more human and make it more emotionally resonant. And I think that one basic principle will be the same in 10 years as it is today, it’ll just be in an environment that is completely different.

Gregorio Uglioni 28:32
Thank you very much. We are coming to an end of of this game, we spoke about the past about the future. And now they in the last five minutes or three minutes of the game, the prolongation. Three questions for you, is there a book that you would like to suggest to the audience because as you during your career or in your life,

Adam Toporek 28:53
now customer experience, or service book or any book,

Gregorio Uglioni 28:56
they wanted to you think that app could add the audience the most it can it can be can be a generic one, I’m going

Adam Toporek 29:03
to recommend a book, it’s very famous, a lot of people may have read it, I’m going to recommend a book that has truly changed my life. And a lot of ways it’s called atomic habits, by James Clear. That book, I think the principles in that book are widely applicable to almost any context. So both person’s personal life and their business life and you can use it you can use it as a leader. And as an employee, and as just a human being existing in the world. The atomic habits by James Clear

Gregorio Uglioni 29:35
thank you very much. And if somebody would like to contact you, what’s the best way?

Adam Toporek 29:40
The best I mean, a lot of social channels, but the best way by far is customers that stick.com That is home base, so that as customers that stick.com And everything is there, we’ve got a contact form and you can reach out to me and I love to connect with new people. And of course I’m on LinkedIn and all that stuff.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:01
Thank you very much that will be everything will be shared in the show notes. And the last question is a dumb, golden nugget. It’s something that we discussed or something new that you would like to leave to the audience.

Adam Toporek 30:14
It’s gonna be a little repetitive, I think, with what we’ve already said. But I was just going to say that the organizations that can generate positive emotions through their experiences that can do that consistently. And certainly that can make memorable experiences, even if they’re small, are the ones who are going to win now, in five years, and in 10 years.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:39
Thank you very much. It was really a great pleasure to have you on the six goalkeeper podcast. Thank you very much for your time.

Adam Toporek 30:46
Thank you so much, Greg. It was a pleasure. I love chatting about all this stuff. Thanks, everybody.

Gregorio Uglioni 30:52
Thank you, the customer that sticks, I think that it’s something extremely relevant. If you find this discussion relevant for you. Please feel free to contact me give us feedback because we live with it that way. It’s always what we are preaching, giving and getting feedback to improve ourselves. Dear audience, thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. Aidan. Please stay with me. Thank you. Bye bye. If you enjoyed this episode, please share the word of mouth. Subscribe it, share it until the next episode. Please don’t forget we are not in a b2b or b2c business. We are in a human to human environment. Thank you

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